Hi,

I have a 25cc Homey, and a 23.6cc Kioritz. With the same modifications like free breathing exhaust and larger carburetor which engine do you guys think would have more power, and by how much. I'm guessing the Kioritz, but I am wondering by about how much. The Kioritz weighs the same unconverted as the Homey weighs converted!! By the way, this Kioritz is one of the "good" ones with large ports, specified by Keith of BME in another Kioritz thread.


Let me know what you guys think.

Thanks,
AV8TOR

I would think the power potential of the two aren't too far apart. You're probably better off praticing your mods on the Homie first, since it's much easier and cheaper to replace than the Echo. For sure the Echo will come out lighter, but I am not sure what you meant by converted and unconverted. Do you meant elec ign or magneto (shaved flywheel)?

HI,

What I meant by converted and unconverted is that the Homey is all ready to fly and test run with CH ignition. The Kioritz is as removed from the weedeater; I haven't cut off the excess metal, nor converted the ignition, etc. I was surprised when I weighed them that the Kioritz with the mag ignition and unmodified flywheel, and the extra metal still on it, STILL weighed less than the completely converted and ready to fly Homelite.

Take care,
AV8TOR

Yap, that's why I like these Echo 25cc engines. You'll be even more impressed after you cut the block down to bare block.

The downside, though, is that electronic ign is a must with these welterweight champs. Since the bare block is so light, the magneto parts add a lot of weight percentage-wise. If I remember correctly, the two engines I showed in the other thread each weighs just under 3lbs RTF as shown.

Hi,

I'm rather thinking this engine will be more powerful than the Homey was well. This is the one that Keith from BME said was so good as it has the larger ports. I specifically searched until I found this model. I don't remember the rpm numbers, but they were impressive. I think it will have noticeably more power than the Homey. This one has a lighter plastic flywheel, and the coil bolts right to the cylinder so you don't have extra bracketry for that. I'm considering running it with the mag ignition since it is so light anyway.

AV8TOR

That's great. Mine all had real heavy aluminum flywheels that added 1lb to an engine that weighed less than 2lbs - not cool.

Hi,

Looks like I'll convert the Kioritz 23.6 and use it on my next project. I did some more research, and it looks like the Kioritz would have almost 1000 rpm more with the same prop, and weigh about a pound less ready to fly than the Homey. I'm rebuilding the Stick in my Forum picture, and this plane is borderline too small for a gasser. The lesser weight of the Kioritz will be good, and there's no such thing as too much power!!

I'm thinking of ordering a Dymond Models 72 inch span Tiger Moth, and I think the Homey I have will work very well on that. I have a PDF file of a MAN article with this plane converted to gas if anyone is interested. Looks like a pretty good deal.

Thanks,
AV8TOR

I've got some preliminary numbers on the Kioritz versus Homey question. I've just completed the Kioritz 23.6cc engine with the 25cc crank that Keith from BME described. My Homelite with the prop hub, (homemade), muffler, carb, and Hall effect switch bracketry weighs 3 lbs. 1 ounce. My Kioritz weighs 2 lbs. 9 ounces with the same equipment. One half pound lighter! My Homey will turn a 16 x 8 APC prop at 8500 rpms, and according to Keith, this Kioritz ought to turn the same prop at 9400!! I should be able to get it mounted to the test stand and run later this week, so we will soon find out for sure.

I have been making mufflers by gutting and cutting down the stock steel mufflers, welding in a flat plate where I cut them off, and brazing in 7/16" I.D. brass tubes. They weigh around 6 to 8 ounces, (with the mounting screws). Does anyone know about what the various aluminum ones that are available weigh?? I'm thinking there probably isn't that much difference, as the aluminum is thicker than the steel.

Too much fun this hobby!

Take care,
AV8TOR

Well I am new to Gas conversions and would like to know where you can purchase ready made conversion parts for the Kioritz ( Echo) 23.6, such as motor mounts prop adapters carbs... instructions on how to convert..


Thanks

Rob

av8tor1977
Ok where are the pics of that mighty mouse engine! Particularly interested in the install of the ign. sensor. Did you install magnet in front or rear? Does the 25cc crank have the same length output shafts as the 23.6?
Hve read Don't forget Echo post at various times, was Keith's comment about all the 23.6cc or was some that had different ports?
I have totally serviced a 21 and a 23.6 and darned if I can recall any difference in the ports. But they were done at different times.
Got the CH igns. last week and have Homie on test stand, new 11 mm carbs arrived today. (Sure glad people occassional visit down here )

Hi,

I'll try to get some pics on soon. As for the rest, here goes:

Keith said that the 23.6 engines to use were from the middle '90's; '95 to '98 I believe. They were used in power blowers. I lucked out and found some at an Echo repair shop. Keith said they have more power potential by far than any of the other little Kioritz engines. They have bigger transfer ports than the other models, including the newer 23.6 versions. I verified with Keith that I had the right one with pics and numbers. Mine have the numbers PB-24LN Type 1-E. I think the cranks have the same output length, though to be honest I didn't check as it didn't matter to me. I just made an adapter hub out of the center of the magneto, then added a prop adapter to that.

As for mounts, I don't even make an aluminum plate mount like most people do for all conversions. I just put studs in the original mounting holes, and mount those through the firewall with flat washers, lock washers, and nuts behind. A little bit of a hassle to mount, but less fabrication, and less weight!! I really don't know if anyone makes prop adapters, as I make my own. I'm sure you could find some in the forum though, or someone whom would make them for you. As far as other conversion info, there is a good bit of info in the thread "don't forget the echo" that will come up if you do a search, as well as other forums here. There is also some info on my homemade prop adapters in a thread under the heading "homemade prop adapters".

Mike, you'll see when I get the pics up how I did the sensor mount. I don't think there is enough room to put one in the little "bellhousing" area behind the engine, though I have been tempted. You might be able to squeeze one in there, but it would really be tight, and a bear to adjust the timing for max power. How's living in La Paz?? I miss Puerto Penasco.

Pics soon,
Take care,
AV8TOR

Hope it looked like the one in the top right of pic!

[link=http://f1.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/bnbnlapaz/detail?.dir=/RC+Planes&.dnm=engine+shop.jpg]engine shop[/link]

Got a scrap 21 that I have been cutting and R&D mods. Put a magnet in the bell housing, haven't figure the sensor yet. You are right it would be a pain to adjust..... I 'll have to look again at that flywheel.

La Paz - still in sandals and shorts I remember that wet and white stuff from the NW.

Here ya go Mike.

I had to make a spacer to "jack up" the cylinder to accomodate the increased stroke. It is made out of .085" aluminum. I made a tab to stick out front on the spacer, and mounted the sensor to a piece of angle bolted to the tab. The tab has a slot so I can move the sensor back and forth and fine tune the timing.

On an engine without the spacer I have, you could use some standoffs, (or a stack of washers), and some longer bolts on the top two crankcase bolt locations to bolt on an aluminum angle to mount the sensor.

What do you think of my engine?

AV8TOR

Well, just got through running the little hot rod Kioritz, and it runs great. I was hoping for a little bit more power than I saw, but then I really haven't tinkered with fine tuning it much, and it doesn't have much time on it either. (Like maybe 20 minutes.) Even so, it put out 20 to 25% more power than my modified Homelite. More power, and 1/2 pound lighter. Can't beat that!!

The density altitude here today is 6500', and the Kioritz turned an APC 16 x 8 prop at 8200 rpms. At this density altitude, the engine is down about 20% in power compared to what it would have at sea level. It should turn the same prop over 8600 at sea level. That's a little less power than Keith from BME got, but as I said, it has very little time and fine tuning on it. As it gets some more time on it, and I experiment more with the timing, carb, mixture, etc., I believe it will gain a bit of power. Still, it's pretty impressive as it is!! I'm happy!

Take care,
AV8TOR

Hmmm...

Feels like I'm talking to myself here...

Av8tor

Av8tor, hey, nothing wrong with a little monologue.

Actually, I'm very interested in your findings with this engine. I'd say you've got a fine engine there. Ran my Echo 25.4cc again today: 16x8 Dynathrust 8600rpm. Either the engine is starting to loosen up a bit, or the cold dry autumn air real packs a punch. Last time I ran it, it barely got above 8000rpm. I'm sure it'll do a little better with an APC 16x8 (more efficient prop). Zero modifications, other than CH Synchrospark ign. I also haven't done much tuning on it. I think these little Echos will really come alive with an 16x6, if their powerband is anything like the G-23/G-26. The only reason I don't want to try it is because of the noise it'll make at higher rpms.

Ran a G26 here in Williams, allmost 7000 feet, ran the same engine in Kingman, about 4000 feet, ran another G26 in Phoenix, about 1200 feet, almost exactly the same rpm, 9000, Mejzlik 18-6..A G23 turns the same prop 7200....Transfer ports almost twice as wide on the 26...

My engines lost anywhere from 600 to 1000 rpm's between sea level in Puerto Penasco and here. All my full size aircraft performance charts show that an engine loses about 5% power per thousand foot altitude increase, as well as the dyno correction charts I've accessed. This has also been my experience in various planes, boats, race cars, models, etc.

Anyway, I don't much trust this Glo-Bee tach, though it should be ok for direct comparisons I guess. It reads 400 rpm's lower than the electronic tach on my ultralight training airplane. I didn't think to check it against my old Ace R/C analog tach. The Glo-Bee is a pain as the numbers change depending on where and how you hold it. You have to use the number you think is correct out of the different readings you get. 8200 seemed to be the steadiest and most consistent reading I got today, so I reported that. A new TNC tach is definitely on the top of my wish list. Santa???

At any rate, the little Kioritz is definitely more powerful than the Homey, and weighs a half pound less, so I guess I answered my original question of "Kioritz vs. Homey".

Take care,
AV8TOR

av8tor1977
decided on a front end mount for pickup. After using the CH prop hub on the Homie, figured that reversing the crankshaft and cutting off the long aft end would save some weight. Retapped the short end 5/16-24, (what is the actual thread on Echo? Do not have any metric pitch gauges and it sure looked SAE, surprize, but it will work)
The G-10 prop hub also saved some weight over an alum version.
The exhaust will be loud, just a 1" square alum tube totally open on one end.

[link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/gallery/galleryCat.cfm.cfm?memberID=42209&CFID=818405&CFTO KEN=3a4dd9f-55e86273-d2ba-40c6-87ac-6c708c5c7736]Click for pics Echo[/link]

@#^% hate trying to post pics[>:]

It's either 8M1.0 or 8M1.25, I don't remember which. 8mm is very close to 5/16", enough that props I reamed using either 8mm or 5/16" reamers will work interchangeably. If the thread pitch looks to be very close to 5/16-24, then for sure it's 8M1.0 since 1 inch = 25.4mm.

5/16-24 = 24 threads per inch
8M1.0 =~ 25 threads per inch
8M1.25 = ~ 20 threads per inch

Ralph, I found that the G-23 doesn't like to be propped down too much. I got not much higher higher RPM as you did with an MA 16x8, and was kinda disappointed. Swapped in a 16x6 APC, and the little Zenoah came alive. I'm even think about changing to a 15x8 and really let her rip. Plus the GP Spacewalker it's on flies kinda slow with the 16x6 anyway, so pitching up a little should help speed it up. I would love to get a G-26 to play with, but right now I've got enough of these little Echos already.

There are three versions of G23..The really old ones had points and small transfer ports, the next had slightly larger ports, and the last had a G62 style ignition with the small rotor and no points...The point gap on the older ones has a big effect on the timing, as it fires when the points open..If the gap is too large the timing gets retarded and really slows the engine down.Haven't run a points version for a few years, and forgot what the rpm was...We flew a 110 lb 16 foot wingspan Dornier seaplane a few years ago with 6 of the older ones, tried 15-8 props, wouldn't take off, changed to 14-10s and got it up that way...We tested the engines in the wind tunnel at ASU, showed about 11+ lbs thrust....
If you have a plane set up with a G23 a comparison with a G26 would be interesting..Come on up the hill someday and we can replace the G23 with my G26 for a test..We can fly at the Williams airport....A glow 23 weighs about 1 1/2 lbs, turns this prop about 8000....I made two from old parts, they both worked the same....

Hi,

Hey, what's the big deal about the WA-197 carb? Other people in the forum have talked a lot about this carb. I am going to try different carbs on my new 23.6cc "hot rod" Kioritz. I have various carbs to try between 9 & 11mm plus. None of them however, are the "infamous" WA-197. I would think that with an adjustable idle mixture, and an adjustable main jet mixture, (and that they are designed for gasoline), that the only real variable would be the venturi size. Oh yes, one carb might have a little better transition than another, etc. depending on how they were designed and for exactly what application, but with idle and high end being adjustable, I would think there would be little actual difference, especially in top end power. Comments???

RCIGN1...

Would love to fly with you sometime. My time is rather divided between southern Arizona and northern Arizona. Right now I am down south. Good old "Williams Airport". Nice little airport, but not much activity. How is it doing these days? I am presently rebuilding/transitioning my "fleet" to gas engines. On the gasser side of things, I have a custom "Stick" that I use for knock around and testing small gas engines, a Katana 72" ws. that I will be installing either a McCulloch 32cc or a Poulan 36cc on, and I'm close to ordering a Dymond Models Tiger Moth biplane that I will probably put my Homey 25cc on for now. (Gotta get through this Christmas thing ya know?)

Take care,
AV8TOR

There's no big deal on the WA197, the original application got shut down so Walbro no longer makes it., same as the WTA6 that was standard on the G38 for about 20 years..Zenoah uses a WT338 now, so there are no more WTA6s...All the internal parts are the same as any other WT carb..When you buy a carb kit it comes with pieces for ALL WA and WT carbs, the only exception being the WTA6, which takes its own kit....There are some different throttle plates because of the venturi size, and different ends on the throttle shaft to fit different applications...Some have chokes, some don't....One of the best WT carbs is the WT76A, used on almost all the 50cc and under engines sold..Same bolt pattern as all the other WA and WT carbs..It is one of the few with a choke plate.....
Difference in the carbs are in the sizes of the 2 or 3 holes in the venturi to regulate fuel mixture from idle to about 1/3 open....
The Williams airport got completely rebuilt last year, new admin building, completely fenced, with a new operator that lives on the property...Spent about $2,000,000 on the job, all brand new runway..Great place to fly, as there's not too much activity yet, but the new operator is working on getting more users..
I'm trying to get some time to put my G26 on a Phaeton 90 bipe that;s been hanging up for about 3 years, all ready for an engine...the last engine in it was an Enya 240 V twin..It was OK but too heavy..The G26 is lighter and should work better, should come out about 13 lbs...

Hi everyone,

Haven't had a lot of response to this thread, so I don't know if anyone is interested. I had to go to an engine class for a week for my work, and now I'm kind of tied up with the "holiday thing." However, when I get back to this after the holidays, I will post my results of further testing on my little 23.6cc stroker engine, if anyone is interested.

Happy Holidays,
AV8TOR

av8tor, very interested here, since yours is very similar to my 25.4cc Echo. Definitely keep us posted.

BTW, how many degrees is your ignition timing advance set at?