DLE 55 Issues
07-03-2011 | 05:32 PM
#26
Senior Member
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: apalsson
How far from Factory Settings do you suggest we turn the low needle? 
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
To summarize in three words: Tune your engines.
To summarize in three words: Tune your engines.
BCCHI
07-03-2011 | 05:59 PM
#27
My Feedback: (55)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
Worst you can do is peak the high AND the low.
Worst you can do is peak the high AND the low.
I'm still struggling to get my DLE30 tuned spot-on. It's close, but I still have a burble at what I assume is the transition from low to high needle. I did read the link, and I think part of my problem is that I have been making too large of a needle adjustment as I chase the proper settings. Also, I'll give the high-first method a try.
07-03-2011 | 06:35 PM
#28
My Feedback: (1)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
Also, I'll give the high-first method a try.
Also, I'll give the high-first method a try.
There may be better ways to fine tune out fat running mid-range or the most perfect idle but if followed, this procedure will quickly give you good solid performance and reliable low idle (assuming there aren't some unforeseen set up problems)
I personally use this method on all new engines prior to break-in and it has served me well
The document also includes a link to a method where you can tune out (as much as possible) fat mid range. My personal view is to use that method "after" break-in to get to the sweet spot
07-03-2011 | 06:45 PM
#30
My Feedback: (55)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: apalsson
Pat's method as described in the document on my site is probably the quickest and simplest method to get a new engine tuned to a reasonable standard.
Pat's method as described in the document on my site is probably the quickest and simplest method to get a new engine tuned to a reasonable standard.
Now, I will admit I'm scratching my head a bit over exactly what is going on here:
Next run the engine somewhere between 2,500 and 3,000 rpm. Hold it there and
adjust the low needle so that the engine increases rpm until it falls off. Back the low
needle up until the engine again increases rpm, then falls off because it got too rich.
Adjust the low needle back to the point on max rpm. All of that with the engine at
that initial throttle position required to obtain the 2,500 to 3,000. You do not want to
be using the throttle when adjusting the low needle.
Are you just adjusting the low needle back and forth between lean and rich to find the peak rpm, once the throttle is set (and not touched again) with the rpm in the 2500-3000 range?
07-03-2011 | 06:59 PM
#31
My Feedback: (1)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
In a way yes, you started with BOTH needles somewhat rich, or maybe 2 turns out.
1. You lean the high needle till you get peak RPM
2. You then set the throttle for around 3,000 RPM and lean the low needle till you get peak RPM (without changing the throttle). You find the peak RPM by going slightly past it, then go back till just on the rich side of peak RPM
3. Peak the high needle again and you're good to go (don't skip this step because adjustments you made to the low needle affect the top end as well)
1. You lean the high needle till you get peak RPM
2. You then set the throttle for around 3,000 RPM and lean the low needle till you get peak RPM (without changing the throttle). You find the peak RPM by going slightly past it, then go back till just on the rich side of peak RPM
3. Peak the high needle again and you're good to go (don't skip this step because adjustments you made to the low needle affect the top end as well)
07-03-2011 | 08:00 PM
#33
Senior Member
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
So was it not even leaner to begin with? You missed my earlier points. The base needle positions on most Walbro carbs is 1 1/2 turns open. That will get the engine started. Everything after that is tuning since the engine is not in any particular state of tune when you get it.
Visit the link to Ari's site. Worst you can do is peak the high AND the low. From that point the low needle can only go richer to hit happiness. If the high is peaked it's where it needs to be. Go slow, and do it small. Those 1/2 turns you did in glow will kill you with gas. Once correctly tuned, 3/8 of a turn on a high needle will often shut a gasser down.
Once you learn the very minor differences in the way glow and gas tune you'll hate glow because gas is easier and doesn't change on a flight to flight basis like glow often does. It's normal to not touch the needles on a gasser for a year or more after it was correctly tuned.
So was it not even leaner to begin with? You missed my earlier points. The base needle positions on most Walbro carbs is 1 1/2 turns open. That will get the engine started. Everything after that is tuning since the engine is not in any particular state of tune when you get it.
Visit the link to Ari's site. Worst you can do is peak the high AND the low. From that point the low needle can only go richer to hit happiness. If the high is peaked it's where it needs to be. Go slow, and do it small. Those 1/2 turns you did in glow will kill you with gas. Once correctly tuned, 3/8 of a turn on a high needle will often shut a gasser down.
Once you learn the very minor differences in the way glow and gas tune you'll hate glow because gas is easier and doesn't change on a flight to flight basis like glow often does. It's normal to not touch the needles on a gasser for a year or more after it was correctly tuned.
Now, run glow fuel in a GLOW Carbed engine set-up with CDI and you will find out quickly how much glow fuel you have been wasting.
Anyway, to the original poster and to anyone else wanting gas fuel lines that simply work, use ester based polyurethane tubing. McMaster Carr carries ester PolyU (Tygothane) for 30 cents a foot. It is designed for organic solvent materials like diesel or gasoline. Stays flexible and strong inside the tank or out and doesn't swell. I've been using it with both pump gas and Avgas 100LL. BTW- there is ether based PolyU also which is no good for gasoline....don't get that
07-03-2011 | 08:20 PM
#34
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
The method I use of using a high and low RPM to set both needles in their respective control ranges is a fast way to get close to tuned. Do this the first time the engine is run. The high needle will often be very, very close to the desired end result when done this way. However, when you go to the lean side of the low needle (peak RPM in the low RPM range) there will generally be further low needle adjustments needed. What's nice is you have already established where the lean point is because you peaked the low needle. So any further adjustments mean you only go richer, or counter clockwise with the needle closest to the engine. 1/16 turn at a time until you get very close, then even smaller increments. 1/8 and 1/4 turn adjustments are really big adjustments. Half turns are for establishing what the initial positions are before running the first time.
In most cases I do my tuning with a running engine but there are some that just can't be done that way. Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them. If you have a carb with needles that angle towards a prop do not EVER try to adjust them with the engine running. You're life depends on not tuning with a running engine under those circumstances. Those that elect to tune an engine with a bottom carb with needles pointing straight out the side must excersize extreme care in remaining clear of the propeller with every part of their bodies, clothing, hair, whatever. Rear carb engines are easy if some planning went into the engine installartion to permit needle access. Side carb engines can be easy or dangerous depending on the way the needles face and prop clearance.
Liability Disclaimer:
With any running engine, you tune at your own risk, and make sure you always have someone else nearby. Like within a few feet.
In most cases I do my tuning with a running engine but there are some that just can't be done that way. Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them. If you have a carb with needles that angle towards a prop do not EVER try to adjust them with the engine running. You're life depends on not tuning with a running engine under those circumstances. Those that elect to tune an engine with a bottom carb with needles pointing straight out the side must excersize extreme care in remaining clear of the propeller with every part of their bodies, clothing, hair, whatever. Rear carb engines are easy if some planning went into the engine installartion to permit needle access. Side carb engines can be easy or dangerous depending on the way the needles face and prop clearance.
Liability Disclaimer:
With any running engine, you tune at your own risk, and make sure you always have someone else nearby. Like within a few feet.
07-03-2011 | 08:35 PM
#35
My Feedback: (1)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
In most cases I do my tuning with a running engine but there are some that just can't be done that way. Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them. If you have a carb with needles that angle towards a prop do not EVER try to adjust them with the engine running. You're life depends on not tuning with a running engine under those circumstances. Those that elect to tune an engine with a bottom carb with needles pointing straight out the side must excersize extreme care in remaining clear of the propeller with every part of their bodies, clothing, hair, whatever. Rear carb engines are easy if some planning went into the engine installartion to permit needle access. Side carb engines can be easy or dangerous depending on the way the needles face and prop clearance.
Liability Disclaimer:
With any running engine, you tune at your own risk, and make sure you always have someone else nearby. Like within a few feet.
In most cases I do my tuning with a running engine but there are some that just can't be done that way. Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them. If you have a carb with needles that angle towards a prop do not EVER try to adjust them with the engine running. You're life depends on not tuning with a running engine under those circumstances. Those that elect to tune an engine with a bottom carb with needles pointing straight out the side must excersize extreme care in remaining clear of the propeller with every part of their bodies, clothing, hair, whatever. Rear carb engines are easy if some planning went into the engine installartion to permit needle access. Side carb engines can be easy or dangerous depending on the way the needles face and prop clearance.
Liability Disclaimer:
With any running engine, you tune at your own risk, and make sure you always have someone else nearby. Like within a few feet.
Even be included together with ALL tuning posts and threads !
07-04-2011 | 03:58 AM
#36
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (57)
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Huntersville,
NC
RE: DLE 55 Issues
http://www.mcmaster.com/#=d11g7o
Is this the one you use? I have an account so I can order this with no problem.
Joe
Glow engines must use their mixture for ignition timing. They need fat running for that reason. Gasoline on ignition of course is a different matter.
Now, run glow fuel in a GLOW Carbed engine set-up with CDI and you will find out quickly how much glow fuel you have been wasting.
Anyway, to the original poster and to anyone else wanting gas fuel lines that simply work, use ester based polyurethane tubing. McMaster Carr carries ester PolyU (Tygothane) for 30 cents a foot. It is designed for organic solvent materials like diesel or gasoline. Stays flexible and strong inside the tank or out and doesn't swell. I've been using it with both pump gas and Avgas 100LL. BTW- there is ether based PolyU also which is no good for gasoline....don't get that
Now, run glow fuel in a GLOW Carbed engine set-up with CDI and you will find out quickly how much glow fuel you have been wasting.
Anyway, to the original poster and to anyone else wanting gas fuel lines that simply work, use ester based polyurethane tubing. McMaster Carr carries ester PolyU (Tygothane) for 30 cents a foot. It is designed for organic solvent materials like diesel or gasoline. Stays flexible and strong inside the tank or out and doesn't swell. I've been using it with both pump gas and Avgas 100LL. BTW- there is ether based PolyU also which is no good for gasoline....don't get that
Joe
07-04-2011 | 06:11 AM
#38
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (57)
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Huntersville,
NC
RE: DLE 55 Issues
Hey look, I understand that I have a lot to learn here with switching over from nitro to gas from the past 28 years of being in here. I do not believe mine issue is tuning related but plumbing which I will discover tomorrow when I have a chance to take this apart.
07-04-2011 | 07:41 AM
#39
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 923
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Calimesa,
CA
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
The method I use of using a high and low RPM to set both needles in their respective control ranges is a fast way to get close to tuned. Do this the first time the engine is run. The high needle will often be very, very close to the desired end result when done this way. However, when you go to the lean side of the low needle (peak RPM in the low RPM range) there will generally be further low needle adjustments needed. What's nice is you have already established where the lean point is because you peaked the low needle. So any further adjustments mean you only go richer, or counter clockwise with the needle closest to the engine. 1/16 turn at a time until you get very close, then even smaller increments. 1/8 and 1/4 turn adjustments are really big adjustments. Half turns are for establishing what the initial positions are before running the first time.
In most cases I do my tuning with a running engine but there are some that just can't be done that way. Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them. If you have a carb with needles that angle towards a prop do not EVER try to adjust them with the engine running. You're life depends on not tuning with a running engine under those circumstances. Those that elect to tune an engine with a bottom carb with needles pointing straight out the side must excersize extreme care in remaining clear of the propeller with every part of their bodies, clothing, hair, whatever. Rear carb engines are easy if some planning went into the engine installartion to permit needle access. Side carb engines can be easy or dangerous depending on the way the needles face and prop clearance.
Liability Disclaimer:
With any running engine, you tune at your own risk, and make sure you always have someone else nearby. Like within a few feet.
The method I use of using a high and low RPM to set both needles in their respective control ranges is a fast way to get close to tuned. Do this the first time the engine is run. The high needle will often be very, very close to the desired end result when done this way. However, when you go to the lean side of the low needle (peak RPM in the low RPM range) there will generally be further low needle adjustments needed. What's nice is you have already established where the lean point is because you peaked the low needle. So any further adjustments mean you only go richer, or counter clockwise with the needle closest to the engine. 1/16 turn at a time until you get very close, then even smaller increments. 1/8 and 1/4 turn adjustments are really big adjustments. Half turns are for establishing what the initial positions are before running the first time.
In most cases I do my tuning with a running engine but there are some that just can't be done that way. Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them. If you have a carb with needles that angle towards a prop do not EVER try to adjust them with the engine running. You're life depends on not tuning with a running engine under those circumstances. Those that elect to tune an engine with a bottom carb with needles pointing straight out the side must excersize extreme care in remaining clear of the propeller with every part of their bodies, clothing, hair, whatever. Rear carb engines are easy if some planning went into the engine installartion to permit needle access. Side carb engines can be easy or dangerous depending on the way the needles face and prop clearance.
Liability Disclaimer:
With any running engine, you tune at your own risk, and make sure you always have someone else nearby. Like within a few feet.
futura,
I don't post on here too much anymore, I usually just read and try to follow most of the advice. Since I believe you said this was your first gasser, I was wondering if you are using Tygon fuel line, and did you using the correct fuel tank stopper? I'm not an expert like some of these guys, but my thoughts are you have a tuning issue. So these questions are just out of curiosity.
TOM,
I have been following a lot of your advice. I am on my third gasser (DLE 20), and have been successful so far with set-up, tuning, etc. My next engine will be a DLE 55, so whenever something pops up on here, I try and read about it. Anyway, I do have a question for you regarding your statement "Those start and stop engines are a real PITA but that's the only way to do them". That is what I have been doing with my two planes that have cowls, and it is a PITA. Recently, I have had an issue with one of them. So I removed the cowl to make it easier to turn the needles (there a slot cut in the cowl, but I wanted to make it easier), and I wanted to see if everything with the linkage was working properly. I'm not flying with the cowl off, just turning the needles. My engines are running pretty good, and I don't touch the needles once tuned, unless I change a prop size, or some other change.
My question is, will the cowl on or off make a difference in the tuning? And if so, how much difference?
Thanks
07-04-2011 | 08:36 AM
#40
My Feedback: (8)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
Today I fly for 5 minutes engine running perfectly then all of a sudden it starts to want to cut out going vertical, then even in level flight and it flames out and safe landing. I go over and touch the motor and its is hot and not only that the aluminum spinner is really hot.
Seems similar to what a fellow clubmember did by accident once.
Loaded up to go fly and grabbed the wrong can... got paint thinner by mistake.
His engine ran for about the same length of time and quit, it got very hot due to no oil in the mix.
Or gas either for that matter.
Just a thought.
Good Luck, futura127
Cheers
Seems similar to what a fellow clubmember did by accident once.
Loaded up to go fly and grabbed the wrong can... got paint thinner by mistake.
His engine ran for about the same length of time and quit, it got very hot due to no oil in the mix.
Or gas either for that matter.
Just a thought.
Good Luck, futura127
Cheers
07-04-2011 | 05:53 PM
#42
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 78
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Lumberton,
NJ
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: VF84sluggo
TOM - what do you mean by this?
I'm still struggling to get my DLE30 tuned spot-on. It's close, but I still have a burble at what I assume is the transition from low to high needle. I did read the link, and I think part of my problem is that I have been making too large of a needle adjustment as I chase the proper settings. Also, I'll give the high-first method a try.
ORIGINAL: Tired Old Man
Worst you can do is peak the high AND the low.
Worst you can do is peak the high AND the low.
I'm still struggling to get my DLE30 tuned spot-on. It's close, but I still have a burble at what I assume is the transition from low to high needle. I did read the link, and I think part of my problem is that I have been making too large of a needle adjustment as I chase the proper settings. Also, I'll give the high-first method a try.
Is burble Bad?
07-04-2011 | 06:25 PM
#44
Senior Member
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: futura127
http://www.mcmaster.com/#=d11g7o
Is this the one you use? I have an account so I can order this with no problem.
Joe
http://www.mcmaster.com/#=d11g7o
Glow engines must use their mixture for ignition timing. They need fat running for that reason. Gasoline on ignition of course is a different matter.
Now, run glow fuel in a GLOW Carbed engine set-up with CDI and you will find out quickly how much glow fuel you have been wasting.
Anyway, to the original poster and to anyone else wanting gas fuel lines that simply work, use ester based polyurethane tubing. McMaster Carr carries ester PolyU (Tygothane) for 30 cents a foot. It is designed for organic solvent materials like diesel or gasoline. Stays flexible and strong inside the tank or out and doesn't swell. I've been using it with both pump gas and Avgas 100LL. BTW- there is ether based PolyU also which is no good for gasoline....don't get that
Now, run glow fuel in a GLOW Carbed engine set-up with CDI and you will find out quickly how much glow fuel you have been wasting.
Anyway, to the original poster and to anyone else wanting gas fuel lines that simply work, use ester based polyurethane tubing. McMaster Carr carries ester PolyU (Tygothane) for 30 cents a foot. It is designed for organic solvent materials like diesel or gasoline. Stays flexible and strong inside the tank or out and doesn't swell. I've been using it with both pump gas and Avgas 100LL. BTW- there is ether based PolyU also which is no good for gasoline....don't get that
Joe
!/8 x 1/32", firm, but thin walled so it's flexible, but not floppy. It is clear and I can't find it in colors....would have liked red or blue translucent.
If you intend to use it inside the tank, straighten the coil first. Use a monokote heat gun.
07-04-2011 | 06:30 PM
#45
My Feedback: (55)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: w8ye
Some engines burble in the mid range with a light load and there is nothing you can do about it.
Some engines burble in the mid range with a light load and there is nothing you can do about it.
07-07-2011 | 02:00 PM
#46
Thread Starter
My Feedback: (57)
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 102
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From: Huntersville,
NC
RE: DLE 55 Issues
Ok so I finally got around to pulling the tank out. I have been waiting for my new fuel line and Walbro fuel filters to come in and they did today. So what I found was what I had thought. The fuel line came off and it was sucking air. Going to fix it later with the new stuff. I also ordered some 316 SS .008" wire to tie wrap all the fittings on. I have enough to last about a million years now! LOL I will post back when I get it fix and have a chance to fly it again.
Thanks,
Joe
Thanks,
Joe
07-07-2011 | 03:30 PM
#47
Senior Member
My Feedback: (1)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
I'm going to try and answer a few questions here.
Cowl on or off, and can it make a difference? Unfortunately that's a yes and no answer. Nothing wrong with running with the cowl off. When the plane is on the ground it makes no difference at all and makes things a lot easier to tune. This is why I do about 98% of the tuning process in the first half tank of gas on the ground. Then the cowl goes on.
Some planes create an issue with pressurizing the diaphragm once the cowl goes on. usually, not always but usually, it's a plane with a round cowl. That's a separate issue and not handled with tuning. Requires a little work with a diaphragm tube.
Burbal good or bad? It's not good, but it may be safe and acceptable depending on the degree. Most of this can be removed with tuning (needles), but sometimes not all of it. There are methods of eliminating the burbal but few people want to purchase spring accessory kits in order to experiment with spring tension. For practical purposes most should limit internal cheacks of the carb to things like metering needle height and the correct installation of the pump and check valve diaphragms.
Fuel line? Type F Tygon works extremely well. So do other grades of Tygon but they need be replaced more frequently. That frequency is reduced when a clunk heavy enough to do the job is used. Viton is very good. Neoprene is very bad. You can get as fancy and expensive as you want but you should still be checking a possibly replacing fuel line once a year. if you're not doing that you're either cheap, lazy, or both. No fuel line is going to help you if that's the case.
Size fuel line and brass tubing? 1/8" fuel line and plumbing will handle the biggest engine most of you will ever fly. So will that Walbro filtered clunk I always end up talking about. Call back when you bust 290cc's and we'll talk about other sizes.
Cowl on or off, and can it make a difference? Unfortunately that's a yes and no answer. Nothing wrong with running with the cowl off. When the plane is on the ground it makes no difference at all and makes things a lot easier to tune. This is why I do about 98% of the tuning process in the first half tank of gas on the ground. Then the cowl goes on.
Some planes create an issue with pressurizing the diaphragm once the cowl goes on. usually, not always but usually, it's a plane with a round cowl. That's a separate issue and not handled with tuning. Requires a little work with a diaphragm tube.
Burbal good or bad? It's not good, but it may be safe and acceptable depending on the degree. Most of this can be removed with tuning (needles), but sometimes not all of it. There are methods of eliminating the burbal but few people want to purchase spring accessory kits in order to experiment with spring tension. For practical purposes most should limit internal cheacks of the carb to things like metering needle height and the correct installation of the pump and check valve diaphragms.
Fuel line? Type F Tygon works extremely well. So do other grades of Tygon but they need be replaced more frequently. That frequency is reduced when a clunk heavy enough to do the job is used. Viton is very good. Neoprene is very bad. You can get as fancy and expensive as you want but you should still be checking a possibly replacing fuel line once a year. if you're not doing that you're either cheap, lazy, or both. No fuel line is going to help you if that's the case.
Size fuel line and brass tubing? 1/8" fuel line and plumbing will handle the biggest engine most of you will ever fly. So will that Walbro filtered clunk I always end up talking about. Call back when you bust 290cc's and we'll talk about other sizes.
08-04-2011 | 02:03 PM
#49
My Feedback: (55)
RE: DLE 55 Issues
ORIGINAL: apalsson
In a way yes, you started with BOTH needles somewhat rich, or maybe 2 turns out.
1. You lean the high needle till you get peak RPM
2. You then set the throttle for around 3,000 RPM and lean the low needle till you get peak RPM (without changing the throttle). You find the peak RPM by going slightly past it, then go back till just on the rich side of peak RPM
3. Peak the high needle again and you're good to go (don't skip this step because adjustments you made to the low needle affect the top end as well)
In a way yes, you started with BOTH needles somewhat rich, or maybe 2 turns out.
1. You lean the high needle till you get peak RPM
2. You then set the throttle for around 3,000 RPM and lean the low needle till you get peak RPM (without changing the throttle). You find the peak RPM by going slightly past it, then go back till just on the rich side of peak RPM
3. Peak the high needle again and you're good to go (don't skip this step because adjustments you made to the low needle affect the top end as well)
Before I was kind of randomly tweaking the needles, but this methodical approach has my engine running well. Nice idle, smooth power transition up to WOT, very good max RPM's. Engine cuts off promptly at idle and full down trim.
I also discovered I had been making too large of an adjustment as I hunted for the right setting. TOM has said that it takes small adjustments, much smaller then glow. Very true. In the final adjustments I bet I moved the needle barely one blade-width of the screwdriver...very sensitive indeed.
Thanks for the advice guys!
Sluggo
