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Identify this engine and problem with starting

Old 02-07-2014, 11:32 AM
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Indiomike
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Default Identify this engine and problem with starting

An old friend passed away and left me with some models. One of them is a Seagull Yak that has a side mount carb on a engine that I can't identify. I know pictures would be best but I'm unable to provide that at this time.

The engine appears to be about 20 to 26cc in size. The number 13 is embossed on the front of the cylinder bass. The spark plug is a Champion RDJ8J. The carb (side mounted) is a Walbro WA197A. The ignition system appears to have two primary components, one a cylinder like component about two inches long and the diameter of a quarter. The other looks like a small Visine bottle that is connected to a 4.8 battery pack. The name Ridge Machine can be seen on the side of the component. A lead from the first component goes to the bottle like component and a lead from the bottle goes to and disappears inside the engine case.

I attempted to start this engine with no luck. I put in a freshly charged battery pack. I removed the carb and replaced the gaskets and diaphragms with a Walbro K10 WAT kit. The metering valve worked freely up and down so I did not replace it. The filter screen was clean. I removed both HS and LS needles to inspect. They looked good. I set them both to 1 1/2 turns out. I made sure the impulse hole lined up with the gasket and the hole to the carb. This carb does not have a choke so I simply covered the intake with my thumb to see if it would draw fuel. It didn't draw hardly at all by hand flipping the prop but did draw strong when an electric starter was used.

I'm pretty sure the ignition works because when I pulled the plug and held it against the side of the case, I felt the shock as I rotated the prop with the ignition on. I did not see a spark at the plug gap but my eyesight is poor and that may be the reason.

I replaced the fuel tank and all new lines.

I can't get so much as a pop out of it whether I flip by hand or use an electric starter. Any Thoughts?

Thanks Indiomike

Last edited by Indiomike; 02-07-2014 at 11:35 AM.
Old 02-07-2014, 12:52 PM
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Pictures please.
Old 02-07-2014, 07:00 PM
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Arrgh. Okay, I took some photos after the camera battery was charged up. I got them downloaded into the computer (iMac). I am embarrassed to say I can't figure out how to upload them onto this message. I'm going to need some instruction on how to attach photos to a thread. I found one how to searching but it was dated back in 2007 and following it did not work. I will show photos when I can figure out how to attach them.

Mike
Old 02-07-2014, 08:33 PM
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Indiomike
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Here is onefile://localhost/Users/georgeburge/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Masters/2014/02/07/20140207-153315/SAM_0019.JPG.

No, that didn't work. Still trying to figure this out. Can anyone provide a link that will take me through the process of sharing pictures.
Old 02-07-2014, 11:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Indiomike View Post
Here is onefile://localhost/Users/georgeburge/Pictures/iPhoto%20Library/Masters/2014/02/07/20140207-153315/SAM_0019.JPG.

No, that didn't work. Still trying to figure this out. Can anyone provide a link that will take me through the process of sharing pictures.
Use the "Go Advanced" option when replying to the thread. In the advanced reply editor there is a button about 2/3 down the page that says "Manage Attachments". Click that and when the next page comes up, click upload files on the right top side. Select the photos from your hard drive or flash drive or what have you, and click upload. The photos show up in the main window and at the bottom. Just click "Done" and they will attach as clickable thumbnails in the post.
Old 02-08-2014, 12:52 AM
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iQwk. thanks for the help. Your instructions were clear but I'm still doing something wrong. I took 4 photos of the engine from various angles. Each one is identified with a file number in iPhoto (mac computer). If I drag one of the photos to the area it says to drag, it takes up all the page and I can't click on "done" as the picture covers up everything. I'm really feeling dumb. It's got to be fairly simple to do but I can't see the forrest because the trees are in the way. The problem area is moving a photo from iPhoto into the manage attachments section. I'll get there eventually . It may take a bit of time.
Thanks again.

Mike
Old 02-08-2014, 07:04 AM
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I wouldn't use the drag option, I've found that to be a pain as you have. Try clicking the Upload Files button instead as this allows you to open folders and click from a list instead of bringing the whole image in to take up the whole screen. I don't use a Mac so I am sure it might be a bit different, but I do use an iPhone to upload photos and it works fine doing that. Keep working at it, you'll get it.
Old 02-08-2014, 08:54 AM
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Indiomike
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I have gotten to the point where it shows the files I've selected but when I click on upload selected files I get a message saying selected files failed. This is so frustrating.
Is there anyone out there who uses a Mac can tell me what I'm doing wrong?

Thanks Mike
Old 02-08-2014, 11:15 AM
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Just do one file at a time and re-edit for additional pictures
Old 02-08-2014, 04:01 PM
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Hi w8ye. I tried to upload one at a time and all four. No luck. I've tried to drag the photos into the lower box where it says to drag but the photos snap back as if on a rubber band. I've tried to load them by file number and when I hit basic upload it tells me the upload failed. However, it doesn't say why the upload failed. I tried the "done" button after choosing the files and it then tells me to drag them into the lower box which I already tried.

This is so frustrating. I've tried several different ways to get the pictures into a post but nothing works. I'm going to give up unless someone suggests a way I haven't tried yet. I run a IMac computer. The photos loaded into iPhoto no problem but for some reason I can't figure out it won't let me attach the photos to a post. I may have a setting somewhere that is wrong. Following the RCU instructions to upload is no problem. I suspect the problem is in iPhoto.

Mike
Old 02-08-2014, 05:02 PM
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I may have found the problem. I chose an older photo I had taken with a different camera and it uploaded no problem, although I did not submit it. So, as soon as I get the old camera battery charged I'll take the photos again and see if that works. Will be tomorrow afternoon I hope.

Oops, disregard the photo. It was a test photo with my older camera.
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Old 02-08-2014, 06:35 PM
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Try exporting the photos from iPhoto to a folder on your MAC. Then use the upload files option and select the photos to upload. Make sure to save the files as a JPEG image and that the pics have a ".jpg" file extension. You may want to resize the pics to 640x480 so they aren't too big too. A regular high resolution image file can be quite huge and exceed what the forum software will allow to upload.
Old 02-08-2014, 09:13 PM
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The ignition sounds like a dan reismuth. Motor is probably a d&b or an air hobbies or maybe an early fpe. Those ignitions were a p.o.s. compared to the c&h of the early 90's. I think ridge machine improved them a bit but most guys pitch em and go c&h or rcexel.

Last edited by 2walla; 02-08-2014 at 09:20 PM.
Old 02-09-2014, 06:19 AM
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Are you opening both needles 1 1/2 turns? Is it pummping gas? somtimes the diaphram needs to be wetted. Lossen the 4 screws on the carb. Blow into the vent line on the tank until fuel comes out the diaphram. Then tigthen the 4 screws. Then start the motor
Old 02-09-2014, 01:32 PM
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All is well with the world (well almost). I found I could not enter the pictures because they were corrupted by me when I improperly disconnected the camera from the computer. So, here are some pictures. I think 2walla is correct. The engine is probably a D&B and the ignition is a Reismuth.

kerwin50. The carb is not drawing fuel. I'll try your suggestion. If that doesn't work I will completely dismantle the carb, shoot it with carb cleaner and reassemble will all new components from a K10WAT kit.
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Old 02-09-2014, 05:46 PM
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Sure looks like an Echo engine. (Which is good.)

AV8TOR
Old 02-09-2014, 10:01 PM
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I Googled Ridge Machine and that led to D&B which identifies the ignition as a Reismuth. I don't know if D&B actually produces engines. If you look next to the number 13 on the second photo it looks like the letter E surrounded in a square box. Could that identify the motor as an Echo?

Well, I completely dismantled the carb and sprayed every opening with carb cleaner. Then I re-assembled will all new parts from a K10WAT overhaul kit. The dang engine would not draw fuel. I happened to have a Zenoah G23 which has the same carb, a Walbro WA 197A. I swapped carbs and got an instant draw of fuel. So, something is amiss with the first carb. I made sure the fuel draw side had fuel in it before screwing down the 4 screws. I was also able to confirm a spark from the ignition by closing the garage door so it was dark enough to see the spark with the plug held against the side of the case. I'm not sure what I'll do next. I found only one vender who sells a WA 197A but it was almost $80.00 and no doubt over that allowing for shipping. Anybody have any suggestions as to a substitute carb that is more ready available?

Thanks Mike
Old 02-10-2014, 07:12 AM
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You no-doubt have a small blockage,bet your carb is good otherwise. Pull it down and check that you have all the gaskets in proper order, then re-clean, Google Walbro, there are lots of tips there.
Old 02-10-2014, 08:27 AM
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I agree, there is a blockage somewhere. I have a new DLE20 carb on hand. I took off both sides to check for the proper gasket/diaphram order when I re-assembled the carb. Speaking of which, assuming this engine is 20 to 26 cc, is there any reason why a DLE20 or 30 carb wouldn't work. I guessing a 26cc engine as I recall the former owner said that was the size of the engine he had put in the model. I don't ever recall him bringing this model out to our field to fly. I have the DLE20 carb now but could order the 30 carb from Tower if that would be the better choice.

I also could just remove the engine entirely and put a DLE 20 in it if need be, although the cowl has already been cut for the former engine. I would like to get this engine running if possible.

Mike
Old 02-10-2014, 08:47 AM
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A DLE 30 carb would run fine or even the "20" carb to prove a problem with the original carb.
Old 02-10-2014, 09:55 AM
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I once had a carb that had a sticky needle. The needle would stick shut and could not open to allow fuel to enter. (The needle that is moved by the rubber regulator diaphragm.) You might look at that. I imagine you have already checked for any air leak at the carb to manifold gasket. Does the fuel tube fit tightly onto the fuel inlet on the carb? The tiniest air leak in the fuel line to carb setup will prevent them from wanting to draw fuel. I have had connections that I would have sworn were good, but leaked a bit of air and caused fuel draw problems.

I usually use WD-40 to verify flow through each passage. Take out the mixture screws and disassemble the carb. Find the orifice(s) that feed fuel from the regulator side of the carb. Blow through those and you should see WD-40 bubble out of the mixture screw holes. Then blow straight into the mixture screw holes with the WD-40 while looking into the carb. When done through the high speed hole, you should see fluid come out through the high speed jet, and when done through the low speed hole you should see it squirt out through the two or three idle/midrange holes in the venturi. Do the same for the fuel entry holes in the fuel pump, etc. Also, literally verify that the little screen can flow. They can plug up with a coating of nearly invisible crap and look ok but not flow.

Anyway, at least fire it up with the DLE 20 carb and see how it runs....

AV8TOR

Last edited by av8tor1977; 02-10-2014 at 10:00 AM.
Old 02-10-2014, 11:24 AM
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A big THANK YOU to everyone for suggestions. I installed a DLE20 carb and the engine ran just fine. I don't have a spare DLE30 carb so I may order one from Tower. They are about $35.00. The prop on this plane was a Zoar 17X6 which is usually great for a 20cc engine. I don't actually know how many cc's but I believe it is 20 to 26cc. I will get it tuned up to check for top rpm and then compare it to a DLE30 carb to see which it likes better.

I'm quite sure something is wrong with the original carb, a Walbro WA197A. I took it completely apart, sprayed all openings with regular carb cleaner. I replaced everything with new components except for the metering spring which was not included in the K10WAT overhaul kit. Re-assembled making sure everything was in the correct order. I loaded the pump side with fuel before putting on the cover with the four screws. I also blew gently into the fuel line and depressed the metering lever. It allowed fuel to enter the chamber.
Although I will be satisfied by replacing the carb, my appetite for knowledge makes me want to find the problem with the faulty carb.
Thanks agin for all the suggestions. I'll report which carb, a DLE20 or 30 works best. I just placed the order from Tower for the 30.

Mike
Old 02-10-2014, 01:41 PM
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Were you able to spray WD-40 into the passage that leads from the regulator fuel chamber into the needle valve holes? I'm betting it is clogged up. It is usually a brass insert in the diaphragm chamber of the carb body with a small hole in it. Sometimes there is another small passage too. They let the fuel go from under the diaphragm, into the mixture needle area and then through the carb jets/orifices in the venturi. It is kind of a pain to get the tube on the WD-40 can to fit tight against that little hole in the brass insert, but once you do when you spray you ought to see WD-40 bubbling out through both mixture needle holes. Then as I said, if you blow through the mixture needle holes while looking into the venturi you should see liquid coming out of the various orifices/jets in the carb throat/venturi. Sometimes if the passage I am talking about gets clogged, you can soak the carb in cleaner for a bit and then blow that passage out good with compressed air.

I always use WD-40 for two reasons. One, regular carb cleaner spray will ruin the check valves in Zama carbs instantly, though admittedly I have never had that happen with a Walbro carb. I don't know about the DLE China clone carbs. Also, the WD-40 will kind of bubble/foam in the passages and let you see what's flowing a little better.

AV8TOR
Old 02-10-2014, 05:00 PM
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Hi av8tor. I had not tried the WD40 as I thought the regular carb cleaner would do the trick. But after reading your last post I decided to follow the suggestion. My carb does not have the brass insert but I know the hole you refer to. I gave it a good blast with WD40 and yes, it comes through into the venturi by blowing into both mixture needle holes. The only part of the carb I did not open up was the high and low fuel metering chambers. Those are the ones with the small moon like covers inside the diaphragm chamber. If the carb still does not draw I will open those up for inspection. In the mean time, I have ordered a DLE30 carb to see if it runs the engine better than the 20. The 20 gives me 6900 rpm at peak. That seems a tad low but that is the max rpm before going lean on the high side. (prop is a Xoar 17X6). My DLE 20's give me about 8300 rpm but if this is a 26 cc engine then 6900 may not be too out of line. I have a good idle and transition.
Thanks for your suggestions.

Mike
Old 02-10-2014, 05:24 PM
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If push comes to shove take that carb to a saw shop and have them rebuild it.
For some reason the diaphram pump is not working. Strip the carb, put it in some carb cleaner to boil it out. Then blow it out and put it back together.

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