BobH

My Feedback: (2)

So all but one engine had Keleo exhaust. Is that because most, nearly all use that exhaust? Or is it because the Keleo exhaust the contributing factor.
Not enough data here to be significant in my opinion.

SWORDSN

My Feedback: (13)

I agree,think most people use the ring.

cathurga

Not enough data to be significant, maybe. But enough to consider it might be a contributing factor.

I have two engines, and both of them, the Keleo is a VERY tight fit. I am not risking that. I will also make sure it is not flooded before starting.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

I second that, but there is not a lot of options when it comes to exhaust. I need to check mine out. I want to loosen the connections to the cylinders and see if once the exhaust has been "heated" enough it relax the connections and it kinda seats itself in. I hope that the ring does not add to an issue, I think we gravitate to the ring, but its the only exhaust we have to choose from. don't want to assume its guilt by association.
T

darryltarr

My Feedback: (2)

I usually don't post on RC forums anymore (too busy of late).

https://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?2389765-Top-flite-p-47-razorback

Post # 245 and onward

Darryl Tarr
(BVM Field Rep)

MDavis28

Darryl, md_cobra here, if you look thru this fourm you will see my posts on how the no2 cylinder broke, how I did my baffling and set up.

MDavis28

So, a quick update on my FG-60R3. I talked with Horizon about my engine. The first time the no 2 cylinder broke I talked with Matt G. and we agreed that I could fix the engine WITHOUT voiding the warrant. Long story short he sent me parts, and I fixed the engine. All was well. When I talked to a different rep, about the no1 cylinder breaking, he said that I had voided the warranty and that this repair was a curtsey repair and that They would not do any more warranty repair on my engine.

I also asked if I sent my engine to Ray English for intake and carb mods would that void the warranty, he said he would call me back. I didn't receive a call back. I have been quite busy with Christmas stuff and not really been able to call them back. Since then I have gotten my engine back but I have yet to get it out of the box. This time around I don't plan on using the Keleo exhaust, but I will need to figure out a way to get the exhaust extended out of the cowling. Will work on it later this week.
MD

slither

What does the cobra in your name signify?

Seems like they shouldn't limit the warranty if you were approved to fix it...

cathurga

MDavis. That's not good news. I agree that if they sent you parts and you did the original repair, it may void the warranty, as the work is complex for a repair of that nature (in the context of a layman, and not a modeller), but they should have informed you of that and given you the option of sending it in instead of just sending parts to you.
With regards to an alternative exhaust solution, Saito makes a collector ring, which I believe is superior than a Keleo, based on the fitment design, as well as the material used to make it.

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

When Horizon sent me back a new engine, on the repair sheet it said, this was a one time goodwill replacement. I took this to mean that it would have no more warranty. I sold the new engine and am done with Saito. My engine was 1yr 5 mo old when it failed with maybe 20 flights on it.

slither

So, are we supposed to take this as the warranty is only good for one repair over a 3yr period and then we are on our own???

aquaskiman

My Feedback: (46)

That is the way I interpreted it

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

So where is this collector available, and at what price.

HARRIS-G

Can someone measure the inside diameter of the keleo tube?? I just want the tube diameter and not the diameter of the ring...

slither

The link is posted earlier in this thread...

MDavis28

Slither, I have a 1998 Mustang Cobra. Had it since 2003, black on black 5speed. No mods really. Not an ideal car for transporting model planes. Small planes fit ok, I can fit my TopFlite 63" P-51 in it no problem with the seats laid down and the wing off the plane.

Cathurga. I told Matt G that I have replaced several cylinder heads on other Saito engines and I felt comfortable doing the work. I was moving to KY at the time and didn't really want to deal with trying to get all addresses figured out. I told him that if it voids the warranty then I will send in the engine. He told me that Horizon would still honor the warranty in the future if anything else happens to the engine that would be covered under the warranty.The parts were sent to me for FREE. So either I was lied to or HH was simply looking for a reason to no longer warranty the engine. I am not denying that I did the first repair. The rep I talked to said I did an excellent job of the repair but since I worked on it I had voided the warranty. I feel that if the no2 had broken again, I could see where the quality of my workmanship would be in question, but it in fact did not break.

Ok, enough on that. As far as exhaust goes I am going to use stock exhaust and try and make a 3-1 straight pipe collector that will extend out of the cowling.
Will see how that goes, MD

cathurga

TomH, here is the part number SAIG60R3171. They seem to go in and out of stock at HH and are rarely available on eBay. It seems Saito make limited quantities. Even RCJapan had problems getting them.

Harris-G, apologies for not getting those dimensions for you. Not had a chance with visiting family and Xmas. Will try get it for you as soon as possible.

MDavis, I am sure you are capable of doing the work, and it is very underhand of HH to tell you that warranty would still be covered, and then not honour it. I suppose, in hindsight you should have asked for that in writing, but anyone would think that if a 'reputable' company like HH said so, then they would carry it through. I am not a fan of HH and I believe that they are responsible for the decline in Saito quality. Saito is now a niche player in the hobby game, they either have to position themselves as one, or bow down to corporate pressure from the likes of HH. Seems they have chosen the latter, perhaps to save the jobs of their employees and investors.
Just my opinion, happy to have someone prove me wrong.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

I got a question, after reading the last few page of threads and following MDavis issues, has anyone removed the ring after it has been run- in on their engine. I'm wondering if the "ring" seats in after it has had some heat on it and "relaxes" a little bit thus taking some pressure off the tight fit. I only have about 3 tanks thru mine, I guess I could try and see if in fact it will relieve some of the pressure. if in fact it does that would be nice. I'm just concerned that Saito/HH could use this as means to void warranty, but maybe not since they have their version of the "ring" as well. Just thinking out loud.
T

SWORDSN

My Feedback: (13)

Does anyone have a lot of time on theirs using the stock exhaust?

cathurga

TomH, I have taken the ring off both of mine before. It's as difficult to get them off as it is to get them on. There appears to be no 'give' even after they have been heat cycled.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

Thanks cathurga, was hoping that the ring would "seat in" and the tension would relax. this has possibilities that the ring could contribute to a failure like MDavis28 had. I wonder if a ring could be built with each collector tube done in some type of flex/according tube then attach to the ring.
T

darryltarr

My Feedback: (2)

Hi Gents, yes as my buddy (cathurga) mentioned the Keleo supplies unnecessary force on the cylinders - period. When I mounted mine I was shocked at the force required when tightening #2.

With all due respect (and with no intention of brand bashing), I do feel that other products from Keleo (like their FG-84R3 manifold), works great, but for some reason the geometry on this unit is poor. Also all the muck inside the collector ring seems to fowl up #2 cylinder before it exits at the bottom of the manifold.

After only one tank through my engine I decided to removed the Keleo and mount the stock exhaust manifolds. The stocks are outstanding and I already have a dozen flights with them. They sound great and once adjusted and clamped (towards the ends), provide zero resistance to the cylinders.

I used the copper shim (provided) between the flex pipe and the 90 Degree Exhaust Manifold. ALL threads were treated with Loctite 518 (flange sealant), and then finally Loctite 243 on the Manifold Lock Nut (cylinder side).

cathurga

TomH, I managed to get some measurements of the wall thickness of the main ring today., it appears to be around 1.8mm but I'm probably out by a hair as I didn't have time to file down the blurring from my cut. The outlet tube seems marginally thicker at 1.85mm.
I agree with Darryl that the force required to mount these seems excessive. Even when you have for past getting the tubes into the mounting flanges, the lock nuts still require a fair amount of effort to tighten down before they are seated. Perhaps Kelvin from Keleo would be in a better position to advise on whether the rings are all a little different it not, but inwont be putting another on this engine. It's either the stock pipes or the Saito ring for me.

TomH

My Feedback: (4)

Cathurga, have you tried the Saito ring? does anyone know if it fits better or "heat seats" and relaxes once its run? the only real reason I bought the ring was for the assume sound. I am seriously thinking of buying the three flex exhaust tubes from Saito, I just would like the hear from someone who has used them or a YouTube to hear them would be great. I got to call Ray English today to check on a motor I sent him, would like his opinion. he installed my ring for me when he did the engine break in for me. has there been other incidences of this happening. I got an OS 5 cyl. radial that I am looking to put a "ring" on, sure don't want issues there. ther got to be a lot of rings out on the various mulit-cylinder engines, and before I bought my 60r3 I was following this thread for a while, that's why I waited until Saito fixed the issues. just never heard about the potential "ring" being issue.

slither

With all of the cylinder temp variations and cracked jugs, it doesn't seem like Saito fixed all of the issues,Tom...

Once again, for the benefit of any new readers, according to Ray, Saito made an attempt to address the issues on this engine, before it was released (not during production), but did not get the intake and carb right. That is likely what you paid Ray to do, Tom... not just to break-in your engine.

And that is why we are trying to determine if anyone with Ray's mods has had a jug failure. Hope this helps...