Denfly31

cathurga

MDavis28m, just watched your second video, and I thought I would just let you know that pushing the rockers down like that is not advisable. If you are at the top of the compression stroke you could push a valve against the piston, bend the valve or mess up the valve guide. The other thing, which HAS happened to me, which is why I thought I would let you know, is that the pushrod falls out of its little seat under the adjuster, and the pushrod is able to move to the side and jam up against the adjuster... I was messing with the thing the one day, dong just what you were doing, and as I went to put the rocker cover back, I thought it looked like it was not level.....just had a look around....and was glad I did.

Not chastising mate, just thought I would let you know.

Regards

foundryratjim

My Feedback: (93)

I recently purchased a Phoenix Lysander 126 inch wingspan with one of these engines. The plane has never been flown but I saw the engine run before i bought it and i thought it ran pretty darn good. After reading through this thread I'm a bit leery of it now.I have had a number of saito glow engines in the past and they have all been great. The discussion on the timing is interesting. I find it hard to believe that saito would design and sell an engine with it that far off. On the other hand I have a lot of faith in CH Ignitions as they have converted engines for me and they run great.

Fly2XS

My Feedback: (65)

cathurga

Gents,

I can understand why people would not want to question the 'ability' of Saito to design and produce an engine, and I would be the last one to criticise them, IF they had a presence where we could raise concerns and get answers justifying their methodology. THey dont need to answer to anyone really, but if they printed matter that said "the timing should be set as follows" then we would all know. Similarly, there is no way to contact them directly, as far as I am aware, except through their distribution channels.

I've mentioned a few 'oddities' that they have made before, including the FG-84 and its crank failures, the FG-20 and its carb failures, the FG-60 and its problematic cylinders.....all of them related to gas engines. We need Saito in this hobby, they are some of the nicest looking, nicest sounding engines, and they are little tech marvels, but they dont interac with their customers.....this is a case in point with the timing....

Want to see another example....who here has the Saito collector ring? Its an 'official' part, apparently designed with the utmost care to fit the FG-60. It's beautiful, with brilliant welds, the word SAITO lovingly laser etched on to it....and it does sound good (not quite keleo sound, but still good)...... all good, that is until you fit it, and then try to connect the plug leads. Anyone care to share a pic of theirs?

Dont get me wrong, I am not bashing Saito, I would like someone to answer on an official level, as to what the timing should be. RCexel says it should be X method, and they should know, they make the ignitions and havent changed the programming in years. Saito say...nothing.

I apologise for not being able to update on the engine performance, but at the moment, I only get a few hours a week at the flying field. I have a plane storage, little workshop up there, so dont do all of this at home. I cannot wait to see if this engine runs better in a plane, and am hoping that it does. Whilst I might seem bullish on this, all I really want is to have a great running engine... I have spent HOURS trying to get this thing to work properly, everything by the book, and still it doesnt perform the way others have...if I am wrong, I will raise my hand and apologise for unintentionally leading people down the primrose path.
For those of you who have a great running engine, if mine does gain some performance....and you do this mod, we need to hear from you.

I am going to put the engine in the same plane, with the same prop, same everything....and see if it flies with more authority while keeping the temps where they should be.

Apologies if anyone has been lead astray by my discussion....

Denfly31

cathurga

Denfly, I just used a small gear puller. Remember that you have to remove the locating pin before you try to pull the hub off. As mentioned before you also cannot re-install the pin as it will be in the wrong place. You will just have to tighten the hub securely when you re-install the prop.

The method I followed was as follows.
Remove prop.
Install a timing protractor, and find true TDC (many methods on you tube, one of Adrien from CH-ignitions explains it pretty well).
I made a mark on the bearing hub boss with a center punch (you dont HAVE to do this as TDC lines the locating pin with the hole between the screws on the cam cover, check my vid or Adrien's earlier in the thread)
Once you have TDC, move the hub around clockwise to 15 Deg. You can then make a mark on the prop hub where TDC is (again, you wont need to as it lines up with the 'check magnet' on the prop hub, but it may be more accurate when putting the prop hub back).
Remove the protractor and move the prop hub back to TDC.
Pull the prop hub off AFTER removing the locating pin.
Check that the locating pin hole on the crankshaft is aligned at TDC and then reinstall the tapered collet.
Install the prophub carefully with the new mark you made or with the center of the 'check magnet'. Your original locating pin should now be at 15 Deg BTDC.(It helps if you have a piston stopper in place at TDC as the crankshaft cannot move off TDC, I dont).
Tighten down the prop hub by putting a prop on and tightening it down, 'with gusto', dont break anything! lol
If you didnt have a piston-stopper in the previous step, remove the prop then install the protractor again and find true TDC in the methods mentioned above (I didnt do this, I basically just 'eyeballed' it using a wooden dowel and got as close to TDC as I could.
From TDC, rotate the engine anti-clockwise to 28-30Deg BTDC
Align the hall sensor using a beeper or light (better than trying to do it with a spark as the programming of the ignition at low rpm changes the spark timing) IMPORTANT the magnet should be APPROACHING the hall sensor in an anti-clockwise direction, as soon as it hits the hall sensor and beeps, turn it back until the beep just stops. Thats where you need to be. Tighten down the sensor.
Remove protractor and whatnot, install prop and spark plug.... run it.
You may need to adjust the needles again as I am sure the efficiency of the engine changes with the timing and you might need to change the mixture (towards the lean side). Start with the HSN, get it to max revs and then turn it back a few clicks until it slows a little, then it is in a slightly rich config.
I found that at 4.5 to 5 turns on the LSN was a little rich. Before the timing change it was fine, but afterwards, I could see cyl's 2 & 3 were lugging a little and ejecting blue smoke, so I leaned it up, and it was very smooth. I dont adjust the LSN at idle, I take it up to around 2000-2500 and adjust it there. Remember to wait a little bit after easch adjustment, it takes a little while for the mix to get through. Once you have a stable rev, and a good transtion, either leave it there or give it a little turn richer, just to err on the side of caution. Remember that the LSN is responsible for nearly 80-90% of the rev range, and even at full tilt, the LSN still has a little influence.

BTW, before you make any adjustments, make sure you get the engine up to operating temps. After starting, I leave it at a high idle for a minute or so, to get everything warmed up. From reading about the induction process that others have mentioned, the mix only stabilises in the induction chamber when things are at operating temp.

Very interessted to see what you find. And please stop running it if you find any backfires or odd noises. Until we get an official response from anyone at Saito or RCexel, this is all speculation.

elmshoot

My Feedback: (6)

Can you post performance numbers? Fuel, Prop, Exhaust set up, Max RPM, Min RPM
Sparky

Denfly31

cathurga

Denfly, no prob, at least others are getting the same readings as me, and these are wrong....according to RCexel, CH-Ignitions as well as Morris at Morris Mini Motors.....

The timing discussion has been on here before, go back to post 1545 or thereabouts, there was even one guy mimmomx, who made himself a new propdrive. He also mentioned that the timing between cylinders was not 120-120-120. He hasnt been back since, I reckon he is out flying his radial! LOL
Even back then, I dont think anyone thought about the timing process of the magnet APPROACHING the hall sensor, everyone assumed, quite naturally, that it is not the case, and is just like a normal engine (single cylinder process). Someone even quoted Adrien from CH-Ignitions, who has helped design for RCexel mentions it, and nobody has picked up on it.
As far as the other engines are concerned, I am not going to preach the epistles to the apostles over on a thread that I dont have any proof on what their engines are like. Maybe they are right? Who knows....they will figure it out, and I dont want to look like I am on a soapbox there. My mate at the club has the FG90, and he is VERY keen to see where his timing is, will check it this weekend. And, we will be sending the FG60 up for its test flight....What is clear on the FG90, is that the cylinder bolts and lugs are a lot sturdier, so maybe they are safe from cracking. As far is the cylinder redesign goes, maybe to stop the cracking cylinders....I dont know, and would hazard a guess that that is why they did it....why else?

slither

Just an FYI... and I am not taking sides! I spoke to Ray English tonight, and he said that the timing is fine on these engines. He said he has a specially designed timing light from back when he was working with Cosworth, and he used it on these engines, which showed the timing to be fine, and when it was running, as well. His advice is to leave it alone.

In addition, he mentioned that Saito does not change the design of an engine once it is released, as they think it is an admission of fault or defect if they do make a change. That said, I thought I remembered seeing the piston with two valve relief cuts on the top rather than the relief all the way around the top... did I imagine that?

Wishing the best of luck to all in running the FG-60!

Denfly31

cathurga

Didier

Jeffryz

I have two questions for you all?
I see that there are four magnets on the prop adapter. What is the forth magnet for?
Also, Where have you found, is the best propeller orientation relative to #1 TDC for starting?
TX Jeff

elmshoot

My Feedback: (6)

Valve lash question,
According to the instructions basically only the tiniest gap should be set. Is that how everyone is setting the valve clearance?
This is the first check I've done since new and all are over the .1MM as measured by the supplied feeler gauge.
Sparky

cathurga

slither

It looks like exhaust temperature decreases with advanced timing... it is the high internal pressure that is the issue.

slither

Keep in mind that I was only reporting what Ray said in conversation when I brought up the topic of timing in this thread. No criticism intended. Interestingly, he mentioned that over thirty people have contacted him regarding the timing discussion in this thread!

Another thing to consider here is the response time of the sensor. Magnetics are often ugly and unruly. Perhaps there is significant delay in the sensor response time which is taken into account during the design phase. Anyone have a data sheet on the sensor? There might be valuable info there. Additionally, the strength of the individual magnets can play a role in slight timing variations. Different magnet strengths will trigger the sensor at different times, which could explain the variation in number 2 and 3 cylinders' timing. I suspect that the stronger the magnetic field the quicker the response in relation to rotational angle, i.e the further from the sensor it will trigger. Lots of variables here! A timing light seems the best approach...

cathurga

Sparky, if you've never checked them before, then they will be over the recommended tolerance. Most of the 'wear' and 'seating' of the valves is done during the break in period. The valve ends, rocker arms, pushrods and guides on the cam will all wear a little as they are under a fair bit of pressure, after a few hors of running, most of the 'wear' has taken place. I set them with the supplied guage and then check them every few runs. In my case, since this engine has never really run the way it should, I have checked them more often, and since the first few runs, they dont seem to change much. Same happened with my FG40, after break in, they were out by a bit, reset them and have revisited them on occasion and mostly no new changes made..over time though, they wil keep wearing, but should have many hours of life in them before the need replacing from wear.

Slither, I concur that magnets and magnetics are more complex than my little brain can mostly comprehend, but since they have flat put them at 120Deg apart from each other, and IF the crank design makes them slightly different from what other people have measured, the Saito havent taken this into consideration. Either that OR they have put different magnets of different strengths in to the prop hub. I dont know if they have thought this through in so much detail.

That graph is interesting, and not sure if I am reading it properly, but if I am then a well-timed engine (closer to advanced than retarded) has an exhaust doing what its supposed to do, remove burnt gases AND remove heat) assuming that the heat of a retarded engine is being absorbed by the engine (cylinder/head etc) or its not being generated. Do Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGT) and Cylinder Temps follow a similar/paralell curve or not? I am not sure, but I would rather the EGT be higher and save my mettalurgy....not sure if I am completely getting the wrong idea, but its interesting for sure. The compression in cylinder looks to be way high....maybe the reasong for the new piston design....try bring that down a bit? Who knows.

cathurga

I managed to get some time yesterday to rig up my other FG60 on the test bed. I changed the timing, but had a hard time getting it started. It would start up, and then burn all the fuel from being primed, then stop. Happened quite a few times. It has been sittting for a long time, so I suspect that the carb might need some attention. I noticed that it was VERY difficult to keep the crank and the prop hub aligned without a guide pin, so that thing is an important component in KEEPING alignement while tightening down. I had a lot of oil seepage from the front bearing onto the crankshaft (from sitting in its box, all the oil in the crankcase has seeped through the bearing) This is a good thing in so far as I know lubrication is happening, but its not a good thing if I am going to have to replace that bearing soon....thats a full teardown job...
Anyway, couldnt get the carb working, so removed it and put a walbro on it. Managet to get it primed, but the timing went out again, probably from me running a starter to get the Walbro primed up. I ran out of light so will try again on the weekend.
Importantly though, just changing the timing by rotating the prophub is definately only a stopgap, I need to have a prophub with a redesigned locating pin. Before that can be done, need an answer from RCexel whether that 'check' magnet location can be changed. If not, then there is a lot of thinking to be done, and some confirmations from people in the know, if this is the best timing we are ever going to get. The only other thing I can do is dismantle the engine and dril new holes for the hall sensor mounting.

ForcesR

Cathurga, I was going to mention this a few posts back but decided not to until I read your recent post. From my experience with Saito engines, the Drive Flange alignment pin has to be properly seated in its slot in the crank shaft. No matter how tightly you torqued the Taper Collet/Drive Flange down and then not install the alignment pin, the Drive Flange will slip/move out of position when starting the engine. This happened on my FG36, FG20, and FG21. I believe the same slippage of the Drive Flange will happen on the FG60R3 and FG90R3 if the alignment pin is not installed.

elmshoot

My Feedback: (6)

I get the wear and all that Jazz. I am asking what are YOU setting the clearance to? My instructions say the supplied gauge (.1MM) should not slip into the gap.

Sparky

cathurga

cathurga