Saito FG-60R3
11-21-2018, 07:34 AM
#1926
Senior Member
That graph is interesting, and not sure if I am reading it properly, but if I am then a well-timed engine (closer to advanced than retarded) has an exhaust doing what its supposed to do, remove burnt gases AND remove heat) assuming that the heat of a retarded engine is being absorbed by the engine (cylinder/head etc) or its not being generated. Do Exhaust Gas Temperatures (EGT) and Cylinder Temps follow a similar/paralell curve or not? I am not sure, but I would rather the EGT be higher and save my mettalurgy....not sure if I am completely getting the wrong idea, but its interesting for sure. The compression in cylinder looks to be way high....maybe the reasong for the new piston design....try bring that down a bit? Who knows.
For example, you can have a high EGT with a cold engine, or retarding the timing/rich mixtures what they do on car shows. (Big flames from exhaust)
What this graph shows is that the combustion with a retarded timed engine happens later, so the exhaust gases will be hotter passing the exhaust valve due to the late combustion. Make sense right? Your engine will not run hotter (except exhaust valve and exhaust) as the amount of energy delivered by the combusted fuel/air mix is theoretically the same only less efficient with a to much retarded timed engine.
11-21-2018, 08:17 AM
#1927
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Slither
This engine is not symetrical 3 cylinder radial.
If everthing would be perfect it would be 120 degree 120 degree 120 degree but due to connecting Rod design it is not symetrical. Have checked My engine and cylinder 1-3 126 degree, cylinder 1–2 126 degree, cylinder 2-3 108 degree.
Magnet on hub have 120 degree spacing and timing are then going not be same on each cylinder.
Maybe we can live with this split in timing but timing 50 BTC can i not accept and are going to adjust it to 30 degree .
This engine is not symetrical 3 cylinder radial.
If everthing would be perfect it would be 120 degree 120 degree 120 degree but due to connecting Rod design it is not symetrical. Have checked My engine and cylinder 1-3 126 degree, cylinder 1–2 126 degree, cylinder 2-3 108 degree.
Magnet on hub have 120 degree spacing and timing are then going not be same on each cylinder.
Maybe we can live with this split in timing but timing 50 BTC can i not accept and are going to adjust it to 30 degree .
11-21-2018, 09:29 AM
#1928
Slither
This engine is not symetrical 3 cylinder radial.
If everthing would be perfect it would be 120 degree 120 degree 120 degree but due to connecting Rod design it is not symetrical. Have checked My engine and cylinder 1-3 126 degree, cylinder 1–2 126 degree, cylinder 2-3 108 degree.
Magnet on hub have 120 degree spacing and timing are then going not be same on each cylinder.
Maybe we can live with this split in timing but timing 50 BTC can i not accept and are going to adjust it to 30 degree .
This engine is not symetrical 3 cylinder radial.
If everthing would be perfect it would be 120 degree 120 degree 120 degree but due to connecting Rod design it is not symetrical. Have checked My engine and cylinder 1-3 126 degree, cylinder 1–2 126 degree, cylinder 2-3 108 degree.
Magnet on hub have 120 degree spacing and timing are then going not be same on each cylinder.
Maybe we can live with this split in timing but timing 50 BTC can i not accept and are going to adjust it to 30 degree .
My point on magnet strength is that each of the magnets in the timing ring has a slightly different field strength. Just dropping one during manufacturing could change it. That variation could have an effect, depending on its amount/size and the sensitivity of the Hall effect transducer, which would change the timing. Though it is likely non-linear, if we assume it is linear, a 5% change in field strength would provide almost 2 degrees change in timing on 38 degrees of advance. If it is non-linear, the change could be more significant. Perhaps a better design would have been one magnet and three sensors... providing individual timing adjustments for each cylinder, though that would complicate the timing process for most individuals. As usual, life is a trade-off...
11-21-2018, 09:32 AM
#1929
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Gents,
i know of a response from saito, although I won’t go into any details here as I respect their confidentiality, as well as the person who told me. Bottom line is that they are happy with the design as is, and are not about to change anything. They did say that people are welcome to try whatever they think might be a better idea, but it WILL void the warranty.
so please, don’t let my ramblings change anything you do with your engines.
for me though, I have no warranty, nor do I have an engine that runs properly in its current, stock format, so I will forge ahead and post my findings just for the case of interesting conversation.
i know of a response from saito, although I won’t go into any details here as I respect their confidentiality, as well as the person who told me. Bottom line is that they are happy with the design as is, and are not about to change anything. They did say that people are welcome to try whatever they think might be a better idea, but it WILL void the warranty.
so please, don’t let my ramblings change anything you do with your engines.
for me though, I have no warranty, nor do I have an engine that runs properly in its current, stock format, so I will forge ahead and post my findings just for the case of interesting conversation.
11-21-2018, 11:45 AM
#1930
My Feedback: (4)
Fg-60r3
Gents,
i know of a response from saito, although I won’t go into any details here as I respect their confidentiality, as well as the person who told me. Bottom line is that they are happy with the design as is, and are not about to change anything. They did say that people are welcome to try whatever they think might be a better idea, but it WILL void the warranty.
so please, don’t let my ramblings change anything you do with your engines.
for me though, I have no warranty, nor do I have an engine that runs properly in its current, stock format, so I will forge ahead and post my findings just for the case of interesting conversation.
i know of a response from saito, although I won’t go into any details here as I respect their confidentiality, as well as the person who told me. Bottom line is that they are happy with the design as is, and are not about to change anything. They did say that people are welcome to try whatever they think might be a better idea, but it WILL void the warranty.
so please, don’t let my ramblings change anything you do with your engines.
for me though, I have no warranty, nor do I have an engine that runs properly in its current, stock format, so I will forge ahead and post my findings just for the case of interesting conversation.
11-21-2018, 02:18 PM
#1932
By any chance, did you degree the magnets to see if they took this into account? A 6-degree change might be tough to see on that hub, just by looking...
11-22-2018, 07:17 AM
#1933
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Hey guys,
Having some problems with my carb, on one of the FG60's, its acting weird..not drawing fuel, wont tune properly and is just not well. Can someone tell me if this picture of the spraybar looks normal or not? It seems to have a crack/split in it. It doesnt look to be mad purposefully....
Research tells me that they are supposed to supposed to have that so the fuel can flow through. Im not used to carbs like this, Walbro is my usual option. I will look to other potential problems.
Having some problems with my carb, on one of the FG60's, its acting weird..not drawing fuel, wont tune properly and is just not well. Can someone tell me if this picture of the spraybar looks normal or not? It seems to have a crack/split in it. It doesnt look to be mad purposefully....
Research tells me that they are supposed to supposed to have that so the fuel can flow through. Im not used to carbs like this, Walbro is my usual option. I will look to other potential problems.
Last edited by cathurga; 11-22-2018 at 08:00 AM.
11-25-2018, 02:47 AM
#1934
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OK, some feedback after this weekend.
Apart from the fact that my one carb has developed a problem, Im not really surehow, but I think its from repeated dismantling over the last few weeks. I think the idle speed screw and the spary bar are misaligned, the engine will not start or even draw fuel when the needles are set at standard settings (4.5 for LSN and 1.5 HSN). The engine used to start and run reliably at these settings, and fine tuning form there for prop size and situational conditions was very easy. I usually ended up with around 1.25 on the HSN and 4.25 on the low, or thereabouts. The diference between summer and winter here means you normally have to richen up in winter for the denser, cooler air. With this carb, I had to open it to 6 turns just to get it to start, and then tuning was very difficult on the low, as the setting between to rich and to lean was scarcely a 1/4 turn if that...and everytime you put the screwdriver in to tune, it would die, or rev up....very inconsistent.
Anyway, managed to get the one engine up and running. Timing set at 28-30 Deg BTDC, and just tightened the hub down. During the day, made sure that the hub hadnt slipped on the crankshaft by taking plug out of cyl 1, and checking the marks were lined up....not 100% accurate but pretty damn close. All day was fine.
The 'datum' test was on a BH Seafury, an old but reliable airframe, with no cowl on, and running a Ramoser Varioprop 4-bladed setup... I know, I know, there is probably a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth at using this, but we wanted to get an apples-to-apples comparison of how it last flew. The Vario prop is an 18.8" diameter, and started out with 10" pitch.
Started and idled beautifully, a little bit of tuning to run just rich of the highest rpm at the top, and reliable idle and transition on the low. Just slight blue smoke ejection after idling for a while, but that means there is oil in there, and I didnt want to destroy anyting, so erred on the side of rich. First flight went well, and it go up to speed nicely, static high rpm was around 5600rpm but we did manage to squeeze 5800 out of it. Its not far off where we were with the timing previously, with one exception....the temps never got higher than 130C on the ground, and in the air, hovered around 140C-150C. Ambient temp in the morning was around 22 Deg C.
Flight went well, it never suffered the bogging after around 4 mins of flight, sounded great and never missed a beat. Very quick transition, and no mid-range burble to speak of.
We subsequently went up in pitch, as high as 13" and the flights there were interesting....it never revved out to max revs, and quite opposite to my intuition expectations....it stayed around 130C temps, even at full throttle..?! On the ground it was getting around 5500 rpm.
Idling on the ground, all through the day, was consitent and reliable at 900-1100rpm, with no sign of quitting, and transitioned quickly and evenly, and dropped straigh back to idle.
We then went the other way on the pitch, down to 9" and the ground revs picked up a little, to around 5800 max. In flight, the temps went up, speed was a little quicker, and temps were around the 140C mark....by this time, the ambient air temp was around 25-30C.
We are starting to think that the airframe, without a cowl on, is like driving a barn-door around, and not going to be any quicker, regardless of what you do, so we will put a cowl on it for next time and see what happens. After that, one of the engines is going into a Seagull FW190 and will do some testing on that with a 3-blade Varioprop. I just need to wait for some parts.
All the time we were running the engines, one thing is very clear to us, it just runs nicer....its smoother, transitions better, idles well and VERY importantly, is not getting anywhere NEAR the temps of 175C (and higher on occasion)......even at full throttle ALL the time, it was never getting to outrageous temps, and this in itself as a GOOD THING for me. my conclusion is that the timing is better at around 30Deg BTDC, for MY purpose. I plan to advance it a bit more, maybe another 5deg, and see what happens.
Sorry I couldnt get you any numbers for 2 bladed props, but the airframe we were using, is too low to use a 2-blader, and as mentioned, we wanted the previous flights to be our yardstick.
Work and a business trip are going to stop me from doing some more testing in the next week or two, and I am waiting for parts to arrive so I can have both engines running at the same time.
Will be back for more soon.
Apart from the fact that my one carb has developed a problem, Im not really surehow, but I think its from repeated dismantling over the last few weeks. I think the idle speed screw and the spary bar are misaligned, the engine will not start or even draw fuel when the needles are set at standard settings (4.5 for LSN and 1.5 HSN). The engine used to start and run reliably at these settings, and fine tuning form there for prop size and situational conditions was very easy. I usually ended up with around 1.25 on the HSN and 4.25 on the low, or thereabouts. The diference between summer and winter here means you normally have to richen up in winter for the denser, cooler air. With this carb, I had to open it to 6 turns just to get it to start, and then tuning was very difficult on the low, as the setting between to rich and to lean was scarcely a 1/4 turn if that...and everytime you put the screwdriver in to tune, it would die, or rev up....very inconsistent.
Anyway, managed to get the one engine up and running. Timing set at 28-30 Deg BTDC, and just tightened the hub down. During the day, made sure that the hub hadnt slipped on the crankshaft by taking plug out of cyl 1, and checking the marks were lined up....not 100% accurate but pretty damn close. All day was fine.
The 'datum' test was on a BH Seafury, an old but reliable airframe, with no cowl on, and running a Ramoser Varioprop 4-bladed setup... I know, I know, there is probably a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth at using this, but we wanted to get an apples-to-apples comparison of how it last flew. The Vario prop is an 18.8" diameter, and started out with 10" pitch.
Started and idled beautifully, a little bit of tuning to run just rich of the highest rpm at the top, and reliable idle and transition on the low. Just slight blue smoke ejection after idling for a while, but that means there is oil in there, and I didnt want to destroy anyting, so erred on the side of rich. First flight went well, and it go up to speed nicely, static high rpm was around 5600rpm but we did manage to squeeze 5800 out of it. Its not far off where we were with the timing previously, with one exception....the temps never got higher than 130C on the ground, and in the air, hovered around 140C-150C. Ambient temp in the morning was around 22 Deg C.
Flight went well, it never suffered the bogging after around 4 mins of flight, sounded great and never missed a beat. Very quick transition, and no mid-range burble to speak of.
We subsequently went up in pitch, as high as 13" and the flights there were interesting....it never revved out to max revs, and quite opposite to my intuition expectations....it stayed around 130C temps, even at full throttle..?! On the ground it was getting around 5500 rpm.
Idling on the ground, all through the day, was consitent and reliable at 900-1100rpm, with no sign of quitting, and transitioned quickly and evenly, and dropped straigh back to idle.
We then went the other way on the pitch, down to 9" and the ground revs picked up a little, to around 5800 max. In flight, the temps went up, speed was a little quicker, and temps were around the 140C mark....by this time, the ambient air temp was around 25-30C.
We are starting to think that the airframe, without a cowl on, is like driving a barn-door around, and not going to be any quicker, regardless of what you do, so we will put a cowl on it for next time and see what happens. After that, one of the engines is going into a Seagull FW190 and will do some testing on that with a 3-blade Varioprop. I just need to wait for some parts.
All the time we were running the engines, one thing is very clear to us, it just runs nicer....its smoother, transitions better, idles well and VERY importantly, is not getting anywhere NEAR the temps of 175C (and higher on occasion)......even at full throttle ALL the time, it was never getting to outrageous temps, and this in itself as a GOOD THING for me. my conclusion is that the timing is better at around 30Deg BTDC, for MY purpose. I plan to advance it a bit more, maybe another 5deg, and see what happens.
Sorry I couldnt get you any numbers for 2 bladed props, but the airframe we were using, is too low to use a 2-blader, and as mentioned, we wanted the previous flights to be our yardstick.
Work and a business trip are going to stop me from doing some more testing in the next week or two, and I am waiting for parts to arrive so I can have both engines running at the same time.
Will be back for more soon.
Last edited by cathurga; 11-25-2018 at 02:49 AM.
11-25-2018, 03:48 AM
#1935
My Feedback: (4)
This seems like the only place to get info for me on this thread, I want to put a 4 blade prop on this engine on my P-47 (top Flight) I seen the video of 4 blade on the P-47, on this forum I think he said was a 18x10, looked like it flew well, but seemed to over rev in flight, would going to a 19x8 or 20x10 possibly bring RPMs down a bit? And perform decently, with out over heating? And would it hurt by putting a dummy radial in front restricting air flow for cooling? Just wondering before going to this size prop?? Or has any one tried this combo yet?? I was told that a 4 bladed prop wouldn't work on my Saito 220 nitro, I ended up putting a 17x10 on a Hanger 9 P-47 and a P-51 with great results, no over heating and good performance, so just wondering??? About the R60 4blade.thanks.
11-25-2018, 04:25 AM
#1936
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slskn.... try reading the post before yours, it might provide at least SOME of the information you are looking for....especially the par that has 'Ramoser Varioprop 4-bladed setup.' in it....
11-25-2018, 09:40 AM
#1939
My Feedback: (6)
I think using a utube to evaluate RPM on an engine isn't a good bench mark. He says <6000 RPM. I would be all over a 18x10. You don't want to lug the engine any more than that. Also if you aren't willing to flight test props and spend the money to optimize the prop to your airframe don't even start down that path.
Sparky
Sparky
11-25-2018, 10:23 AM
#1940
My Feedback: (4)
I have experimented with many props and not afraid to spend or try other props that some say won't work and found that sometimes they do work, been down many paths in the 30 plus years into the hobby, but just asking and wondering what others may have found, the 18x10 sounds like what I will end up with, over a 3 or 2 blade, just trying to look more scale like, thanks for the info.
11-25-2018, 10:42 PM
#1941
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If its any guage, one of the guys at the club here as a 21x10 Fiala on his FG60 in a TF Zero, it flies very well on that prop. So going 20x10 or 19x10 would be your best bet. The vario props are not standard sizes, and there are different type/shape blades as well so they will make a difference. The 4-blader we were using in the testing I mentioned above, was a Vario 18.8" and were were changing the pitch from as low as 9" up to 13". Sweetest spot we found was at about 10 or 11". Lower and it reved out more, but temps climbed a bit. Higher than that and it was noticbly not revving out as much, but was running cooler by around 10-15C.
4T engines are a lot more 'torquey' than 2T so like bigger props. They dont need to be at their upper rev level to pull nicely. The same plane had a DLE55RA running the same prop at around 11" pitch and it ran very well, and seemed to get up to its peak revs in flight. It did probably 50+ flights in that configuration.
The same guy in that youtube vid has a thread going on the 'other' forum, he has his FG60 in a VQ Bearcat, and abandoned the idea of 4-blades because his temps went too high.....of course, he has the stock timing at 45Deg BTDC....i'd bet money if he changed that to 30Deg BTDC, it would run better.... but I am not going to suggest anyone do that unless they are interested in experimenting with an expensive engine.
4T engines are a lot more 'torquey' than 2T so like bigger props. They dont need to be at their upper rev level to pull nicely. The same plane had a DLE55RA running the same prop at around 11" pitch and it ran very well, and seemed to get up to its peak revs in flight. It did probably 50+ flights in that configuration.
The same guy in that youtube vid has a thread going on the 'other' forum, he has his FG60 in a VQ Bearcat, and abandoned the idea of 4-blades because his temps went too high.....of course, he has the stock timing at 45Deg BTDC....i'd bet money if he changed that to 30Deg BTDC, it would run better.... but I am not going to suggest anyone do that unless they are interested in experimenting with an expensive engine.
11-26-2018, 01:26 AM
#1942
My Feedback: (4)
If its any guage, one of the guys at the club here as a 21x10 Fiala on his FG60 in a TF Zero, it flies very well on that prop. So going 20x10 or 19x10 would be your best bet. The vario props are not standard sizes, and there are different type/shape blades as well so they will make a difference. The 4-blader we were using in the testing I mentioned above, was a Vario 18.8" and were were changing the pitch from as low as 9" up to 13". Sweetest spot we found was at about 10 or 11". Lower and it reved out more, but temps climbed a bit. Higher than that and it was noticbly not revving out as much, but was running cooler by around 10-15C.
4T engines are a lot more 'torquey' than 2T so like bigger props. They dont need to be at their upper rev level to pull nicely. The same plane had a DLE55RA running the same prop at around 11" pitch and it ran very well, and seemed to get up to its peak revs in flight. It did probably 50+ flights in that configuration.
The same guy in that youtube vid has a thread going on the 'other' forum, he has his FG60 in a VQ Bearcat, and abandoned the idea of 4-blades because his temps went too high.....of course, he has the stock timing at 45Deg BTDC....i'd bet money if he changed that to 30Deg BTDC, it would run better.... but I am not going to suggest anyone do that unless they are interested in experimenting with an expensive engine.
4T engines are a lot more 'torquey' than 2T so like bigger props. They dont need to be at their upper rev level to pull nicely. The same plane had a DLE55RA running the same prop at around 11" pitch and it ran very well, and seemed to get up to its peak revs in flight. It did probably 50+ flights in that configuration.
The same guy in that youtube vid has a thread going on the 'other' forum, he has his FG60 in a VQ Bearcat, and abandoned the idea of 4-blades because his temps went too high.....of course, he has the stock timing at 45Deg BTDC....i'd bet money if he changed that to 30Deg BTDC, it would run better.... but I am not going to suggest anyone do that unless they are interested in experimenting with an expensive engine.
11-26-2018, 02:12 AM
#1943
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Biela and Fiala are different brands, they both make props. Both of them do 3 & 4 Blades, biela make better scale props. I believe the Seafury we were using also ran a Biela 4-blader on the 55RA DLE engine sometime back, but not sure what dimensions it was, I think it was an 18x10...
11-29-2018, 10:12 AM
#1945
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4-blades prop test
so I managed to sneak out of work this afternoon and we thought we would try putting a Biela 4-blader on the FG60. Specs are 18x14. Biela’s site said this was designed for a radial, most specifically the Evo 7-77. It’s a more powerful engine as far as I know. But hey, we’re experimenting here...
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
11-29-2018, 11:28 AM
#1948
My Feedback: (4)
so I managed to sneak out of work this afternoon and we thought we would try putting a Biela 4-blader on the FG60. Specs are 18x14. Biela’s site said this was designed for a radial, most specifically the Evo 7-77. It’s a more powerful engine as far as I know. But hey, we’re experimenting here...
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
https://youtu.be/SKDsF81ZuNU
starrted fine, and warmed up to 80C at idle and low revs. Max revs were 4900 static. Temps went up to 130C on the ground.
anyway, here’s the first few mins of the flight....you can hear me calling out temps through the few minutes.
https://youtu.be/SKDsF81ZuNU
11-29-2018, 12:49 PM
#1950
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slskn,
4T engines prefer coarser props, and this is a case in point. I would say by today's flying that the 18x14 is probably the sweet spot on this setup. Remember that I have changed the timing on my engines, so your results might vary. A shorter diameter and coarser props look like it makes it happier. If you are running standard timing, you would be better off having heat telemetry on it, and keep an eye on it. This engine has never run below 150-170C, even with the recommended 22x10 prop. In fact, I am going to see if I can source a 20x14 or a 21x12 TWO blader for this thing.
4T engines prefer coarser props, and this is a case in point. I would say by today's flying that the 18x14 is probably the sweet spot on this setup. Remember that I have changed the timing on my engines, so your results might vary. A shorter diameter and coarser props look like it makes it happier. If you are running standard timing, you would be better off having heat telemetry on it, and keep an eye on it. This engine has never run below 150-170C, even with the recommended 22x10 prop. In fact, I am going to see if I can source a 20x14 or a 21x12 TWO blader for this thing.