Saillfish

My Feedback: (17)

Ok, A little update on my Saito FG-20. I just got off the phone with Horizon. I chatted with Randy in Managment and the engine tech working on my motor. They said that they found a small problem or defect in my carb with the low speed circuit. They were able to run it and hear the problem and then they replaced the carb and the problem they said is fixed. They said it idles great, transisions like it should, runs at mid range (which was my problem) and high is great. Randy also said the excess carbon in the exhaust valve area was no problem and they do that running on gas. So in closing I will make two comments. One, the guys at Horizon seem very willing to make this right and personally called me to explain the problem. Almost like dealing with a small town hobby shop. I feel good that they are going to stand by this engine and solve any issues. And second, I will post as soon as I get it back how it runs on the test stand and post a video on youtube. They also say, run 20:1 ratio.

MikeSteve

Dear all,

Dear Saillfish, do you know if this carburetor problem affects all Saito engines distributed worldwide? It is important to know, because then Saito should replace carburators of engines distributed worldwide, which is not a simple thing!!!![]

Reportis wellcomed.

Regards,

Mike

modelflyer5

I do have to say that Horizon goes out of there way to stand benind there products.

I was hoping that they would be able to fix it. One of my friends, that has been flying gas along time, thought that it might be something with the carb. Looks like they might have had a issue with a run of carbs.

I feel better now that my engine might be able to be fixed and that I can go ahead with my plans in putting it into a Mustang.

Saito does make an awesome line of engines.

I hope to hear from them soon concerning my engine. It will probably arrive there next week.

Thank You ahead of time Horizon. Keep up the good work.

Matt R

R/C Foolish

My Feedback: (6)

Horizon recieved mine yesterday and they said it would be about 5 days before they looked at it. I to am hopeful it is just as simple as changing the carb. We will see.

R/C Foolish

Saillfish

My Feedback: (17)

When I chatted with them they said that my problem was the first they have seen so far. So maybe our motor problems are rare hopfully. One good thing is they should know what to look for with the few coming in after mine now. As I said, if they ship it tomorrow hopefully I will be able to get it and run it within a week or less and I will shoot a video, post it, and we will see how it does and go from there. You can call there tech support number and ask the engine guys to call you and they should because they did me. Also I told them about our forum post going on right now so maybe they will monitor it and give some feedback.

Saillfish

My Feedback: (17)

Mike, They lead me to believe that this is the first one they have come across with this problem. Who knows as of now. Keep us up to date on yours. Scott

bbrundle

My Feedback: (40)

Guys

Yes we do monitor the RCU forums and we/I do try to provide support and answers to the best of our abilities.

I was personally involved in the diagnosis of this engine and as Scott has stated we tracked the issue down to the carburetor. Basically the engine would idle great, transition was great, High speed on a 16-6 APC was great. The issue was at around 7000 RPM in that we noticed a sort of miss and we could manipulate the RPM where this miss occurred with the LS needle settings. The LS needle does interact with the HS needle through the majority of the transition from idle to high speed so if you find yourself looking to adjust the LS needle from the recommended 4 1/2 turns in from flush to the Carb. arm then please make very small 10 minute changes to the screw. Please note that the carb settings listed in the manual are for hte FG-36 and we have an addendum posted on our web- site on theFG-20 page with the correct settings.

Basic settings as follows:
HS 1 1/8-1 3/8
LS 4 1/2 turns in on the screw from a starting point of flush to the face of the throttle arm

We replaced the carburetor and then proceeded to run the engine for another 20 minutes or so through varied throttle settings and found the engine to be running perfectly.

Regarding the oil content we recommend please keep in mind as stated earlier that there are no needle bearings in the FG-20 engine and the additional lubrication is a must. You will not find any additional gains in HP or RPM by using a 50:1 or 100:1 mix in this engine. You must as we recommend use a high quality 100% Synthetic oil mixed at 20:1

I would strongly recommend the use of our Evolution oil at this mix rate as it is made by Morgan fuels and is fantastic. The boys at Saito for reference are using Klotz Synthetic also at the 20:1 Something to keep in mind is that the FG-20 engine is only consuming approx. 10-12 cc of gas per minute on average and at 20:1 you are only feeding the con rod and bearings .6cc per minute of oil. Not much when you consider that the Saito 125 burns methanol fuel with 18%-20% oil at a rate of 40cc per minute which equates to .7-.8 cc of oil per minute. Keep in mind the additional heat from gas versus methanol (glow Fuel)and you will see the reasoning behind the additional oil.

Now if you talk to the boys at DA and Bobby at Cactus Avitaion (3W), Gerhard at Aircraft international(3W) and oh of course Horizon (Evolution) we are all aware of the varying effect of different oils and the carbon deposits that are left behind from some oils. Carbon is almost always present in a gasoline engine and must be kept in check with the proper use of high quality oils.

These new gasoline 4-stroke engines have been thoroughly tested and I think are a great testimonial of the dedication to quality that Saito has been delivering for many many years


If you have a question for either myself or one of our engine techs we will do our best to make ourselves available. Send me a PM and I will get back to you as soon as possible. You can call our Product support as mentioned previously and ask to talk to one of our engine techs and they will call you back when they have their first opportunity.

If you will be attending the Weak Signals Toledo Trade Show then please stop by and say hello.

Sorry to be so long winded...

Happy flying

modelflyer5

Thank You for getting back to us. I feel better that you have posted on this thread.

My engine is on the way to Horizon now. I hope that they can get it to run. My engine started missing at a much lower RPM no matter how much tuning I did. I have total faith in Horizon for standing behind there products. They have helped me out in the past and I am a totaly satisfied customer.

I hope that they will contact me with what they had to do with my engine. I have a Mustang that I have put a lot of time and money into. It would help me to feel confident about this engine.

Again, Thank You for your info.

Matt R

Happymcc

My Feedback: (1)

I adjusted the Low speed needle to 4 1/2 turns and then the HS needle last night and got a
reasonable idle and run with only minimum misfiring at High speed . But after putting
the cowl back on the idle was fine but no matter what I did High speed was just terible .
I test flew a new plane at half throttle and the plane flew good but either Horizon gets this
figured out or the engine is coming out of the plane . The plane is a Hobby Lobby GEE BEE R3
and a dead stick landing is not something I wish to experience with it . I wanted to do this
plane electric but went with this gas engine thinking it would be reliable . I am considering
removing it and going to electric anyway also considering sticking a glow carb on the engine
so I don't have to change the configuration . I do not think I will send mine in until I see some
positive info come from this thread . If I had to guess I would say the problem is in the
regulator part of the carb that would account for the difference in running with or without
the cowling .

Saillfish

My Feedback: (17)

Dont know if this has anything to do with your problem. But there is a very small hole on the carb. It is a atmosphere hole or something. You need to have some space between it and your firewall. I think they call for 2mm min. but I would put more. You can even make a hole in your firewall for it. For more info.... http://www.horizonhobby.com/ProdInfo...s_addendum.pdf

Happymcc

My Feedback: (1)

Sailfish
Yes there is plenty of room behind the hole and the hole should be where the diaphragm for the fuel regulator is .
I think that is the problem with the way these engines are running , that something is wrong with the regulator .
That would be my guess .

MikeSteve

DEar all,

I am sorry but I still have doubts about Bbrundle explanation. What was the problem with Saillfish's engine: just the adjustment of screw, or the carburetor.
As Bbrundle says that carburetor is going to be replaced, I should understand that this is a Carb problem.

Is this assumption right?

Regards,

Mike.

MikeSteve

I did not understand the sentence "from flush to the Carb. arm then please make very small 10 minute changes to the screw".

R/C Foolish

My Feedback: (6)

What they are saying is that the low needle screw should start out being flush with the front of the throttle arm, then turn 4 1/2 turns in from that position. Any other adjustments should be made by small turns (like every 10 minutes on a clock). I think what most of us were doing was 4 1/2 turns from all the way in and then backing out. I was actually going almost 6 turns out from all the way in. What I don't know is how the 2 different methods vary in the final position. My engine should be looked at this week and we will see what they have to say about it.

R/C Foolish

Happymcc

My Feedback: (1)

You know I never even started this engine up before installing in and finishing the plane .
It just never crossed my mind that I would have a problem with a Saito engine running properly .

3rd Time

I agree with you I never thought that there would be a problem with a Saito engine. I had all ready mounted it to the plane I am building but after reading the post I ran it. I have about 1.5 hours on it and can't get to run correctly so back to Horizon it goes. I think they need a different type carburetor on it. But it sounded good and seemed to have good power at top end but the mid-range is bad.

MikeSteve

Dear RC Foolish,

Then, why bbrundle is saying that they have replaced the carburetor of Saillfish?

If the problem was just a wrong interpretation of the Carburetor tunning manual, as you say, with a new tuning of the screws would have been enough. However, a replacement of the carburetor leads me to think that there are Carburetors that are failing for some unknown reasons, and screw setting is not enough.

Is my understanding correct?

Note that I have always trusted in Saito as to own several engines. In fact, I own a FA72, 82, 125, 150, 180 and 220. In Spain, the support for Saito problems is not fast neither easy. I would like to have Horizon Hobby as dealer, but this is not the case. This is why I am worry about what several modellers have noticed in this thread.


Regards

R/C Foolish

My Feedback: (6)

Thats right. I spent several days with all kinds of settings and couldn't get mine to run. That is why I sent it back. We will see what they say soon enough. Too many of us are having problems to just be settings! I think we all know enough how to tune an engine. The bottom line is that they did replace his carburator, we will see if the change mine.

R/C Foolish

Happymcc

My Feedback: (1)

OK
I believe I have a big part of the problem figured out . I have other engines running on gas and have
spare NGK plugs ( which they don't make anymore , but C&H ignition has another brand ) .
Changed the plug and run problems are gone . Ran the engine for a couple hours today using between 4 and 3 3/4
turns in on the LS needle . I have positive response on throttle up and no missing at all anywhere .
I am turning a 15-8 APC at 8850 RPM . I did notice that as my tank fuel level went down the HS needle setting
changed . I will keep an eye on this . I believe that an old trick would be a good idea on this engine , we used
to vent the regulator vent hole inside the fuselage . I don't want to void my warranty thought and I would have to
glue a tube to the vent hole .

I ran the engine with the stock plug and mid to full throttle spiting and sputtering and no HS needle setting would solve it .
Shut the engine down and changed the plug on a whim , problem solved time to fly this thing and have some fun

Antique

My Feedback: (4)

NGK 1/4-32 spark plugs are way overpriced and weren't very good in the first place...
Rimfire spark plugs are made in the USA...They were originally made because the NGKs were so bad...Rimfires will outlast NGKs by at least 4 to 1...
Get Rimfires from C&H....

Happymcc

My Feedback: (1)

I have a couple rimfire but I did not know they were better than NGK .
I have the cowl back on and will use the NGK for now but if I have any
trouble I will chage to the RimFire .

Does anyone know anything about the Stock plug that is coming with the
FG-20 .

R/C Foolish

My Feedback: (6)

Where do you get the rimfire's? I want to have some when my motor gets back.

R/C Foolish

Happymcc

My Feedback: (1)

C&H Ignitions , there are probably other places to get them , this is the one I know of
[link=http://www.ch-ignitions.com/#cat]C&H Ignition[/link]
Listed under spark plugs
RimFire 1/4 32

R/C Foolish

My Feedback: (6)

Well, I ordered my rimfire plugs from C & H. They will be here by the time I get my motor back and I can try them. This could be the magic bullet.

R/C Foolish

Saillfish

My Feedback: (17)

R/C Foolish, I am with you. I have not got my engine back but I ordered a rimfire plug also. So when I get my engine back I will report also. Could the fix be this easy? Lets hope.