captinjohn

I was hoping by now someone would have tried a tunned pipe on a DLE30 that had running issues. So far I have not seen anyone post any input here on a exhaust system (tunned) that may have helped. Please post if you know of such news. Thanks Capt,n

JNorton

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Just asking the question. How would a tuned pipe help alleviate a problem with pooling of gas in the intake manifold?
John

mstam1971

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You could use a super short header and let it idle at 3k rpm

Tired Old Man

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Gashobby,

I know you are not showing any disrespect, and that your question is an honest one.

Let me start with the sellers. They can only represent what the manufacturers/overseas distributors provide them. The basic dealer is not, or at least should not, be expected to be a propulsion experts, though some most certainly are. The dealers have to roll with what they are provided in literature, and what some early users relate. Many dealers also understand they will not sell much product if they have to rely on "name" brand products.

Remember that the eastern manufacturers were limited to only a couple of manufacturers until relatively recently. Zenoah and Fuji. Only one of those worked out with a level of success. The other still hasn't figured out that a customer will buy what works best for them, and not what is easiest for the manufacturer.

Until recently, or about 2-1/2 to 3 years ago, there wasn't much of a market for gas engines. This had been an area limited to what I'll call a select, or elite, few. The total number of gas engines sold for hobby use in the U.S. in a given year until a few years ago was likely limited to a max of about 250 to 300. 500 would probably be an absolute max. That covered just about all the available sizes. It wasn't until the 50cc class of aerobat started to become popular that the eastern manufacturers became interested. Suddenly they saw a cash cow, but still forgot the market was, and is, still pretty limited in potential volume. Price and transport issues still keep many away from larger gas planes.

In any case, they saw an opportunity. They might have even recognized that performing their own R&D out of their own pockets might be a bit expensive for the anticipated return. So they copied what was already in existance. DA, 3w, Zenoah, ZDZ, none were, or are, safe from design theft. In the copy process they likely discovered that to do an engine of the same quality of the majors would require using more expensive and higher quality parts. The sales numbers do not permit the profit margin they would like so substituions were, and still are, made that enable a marginally larger profit per unit sold. It's all about the sale TODAY. Tomorrow will take care of itself but at least they eat today.

When certain parts are copied there is a degradation in the size and shape of the end copy. To get them right requires attention to shapes, angles, tolerances, and concentricity. You also have to duplicate hardness values and weld quality. All that again costs money that some manufacturers do not want to invest, so they go with something that is "close" to the original. They may start with a given design but alter it to lower production costs. Now you're getting to where the differences in quality become easily apparent. So far, only one eastern manufacturer appears to have copied an earlier product and applied some of their own R&D directed towards product improvement. Unfortunately they still periodically use some inferior products to increae the margins.

When you get inside some of the eastern engines and know what to look for you immediately see where they've cut corners. Port shapes, types, and exit angles. Squish bands and their angles, cylinder alignment with the crank center line, piston shape related to combustion dome, misaligned cranks, poor crank welds, soft cranks, out of round pistons and cylinders, etc., etc. All of that, or just parts of that, detract from performance and longevity. But all of that also equates to a less expensive product. In a manner of speaking, people ARE getting what they pay for, with quality commensurate with the price. My opinion is the budget products are considerably over priced, but people clamor all over the forums buying them. Until a little over a year ago the wholesale prices of the larger twins was easily $100.00 less than they are today. The manufacturing costs sure as heck did not rise...

Some of the engines out there are so good you can bet a life on them. It happens many times a day, every day, all over the world. Not one of them is an eastern product. Those same engines are pretty much assured to run flawlessly for many, many hundreds of hours while working much harder than anything you'll ever fly in our hobby. Every one of those products is available over the counter to hobbyists, but at a higher price than their eastern counterparts. Unfortunately many do not recognize the differences and feel that the higher prices are unjustified, or that the manufacturers are charging an "unfair" profit. Someday I might get lucky and find someone that can tell me what a fair profit amount is for me to invest my money, time, and effort to produce a high quality, high performing product that will last for 20 years or more, a product that may sit on my shelf for several months waiting for a buyer while the money I spent making it lays there out of use. We have another 15 years to go before we can determine an average lifecycle of the current crop of budget engines. Nobody in "commercial" applications wants to risk lives and millions of dollars in airframes using them in their applications. That's where all the high end 2 stroke R&D is taking place right now.

So for various reasons people go for the lower priced engine, believing they are getting a good deal for their money. In many cases they are, but that deal is relative. How long will that engine last? How long will it perform as well as it could? How consistent is the performance from one unit to another? How long will the internal components function correctly? In every case I would not anticipate to have the same duration as I know I will have with the upper end engines. In many ways I'm no different than anyone else. I want a good deal and I don't want to spend "too much". However, I understand that I will get what I pay for when I go with a budget priced engine or other product. I also recognize there are a good many times when waiting for the better product is better than buying something for less right now. I understand I'll need to accept less in quality and component longevity if I elect to go with a budget priced product.

I will have gotten what I paid for. I will know that I could have gotten better, but I would have had to pay more for it.

ghoffman

My Feedback: (3)

I could not agree more, I bought a Syssa 30cc. I like having the manufacturer personally answer the phone.

captinjohn

Mr Norton, Your question is basically the same as mine, except that I did not ask how it would alleviate the pooling problem. The question is what happens when a tunned exhaust is tried on a DLE? The tuning of a exhaust or pipe can be for more torque...more RPM....maybe more back pressure at low revs holding heat in. I do not have a clue, but I bet someone like Dick Hansen would? Capt,n

mstam1971

My Feedback: (2)

This might clear things up. I wished that manufacturers would provide that accurate specs with their engines.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

To do that requires a dyno and a whole lot of test time and labor. Note that each of those curves was obtained using a pipe.

rmh

That chart is a bit of a puzzle - What is it supposed to proove?
You don't need dynos -just known prop loads
remember - these are enginwswhich are intended to pull a airplane thru the air
- not accelerate a surface machine.
was the chart trying to demonstrate which device was best?
Were all devices optomized?

mstam1971

My Feedback: (2)

Quote from captinjohn "The question is what happens when a tunned exhaust is tried on a DLE?"

If you look well at the chart you can see that an engine can gain up to 40% top power or 30% more torque depending on the header length and depending on the engine of course. A DLE30 with an ES pipe will very likely come close to a DLE50 with regular muffler. Worth the investment in my opinion for a 3D monster.

gen3v8

My Feedback: (1)

LOOK even closer at reality and you will see the dle30 has no chance of catching my dle55 in the same,50 sized, airframe. With a pipe or not. I must admit ,tuned pipes are the ducks guts

rmh

I wasn't doubting tuned pipes - I use Ed's pipes on all my gassers
The chart had a jumble of curves -and I would suspect some of the devices could have shown better results but he pipe/prop/combos were not setup fo best results
The 58 engine used for the test did appear to have it's best breathing at upper end of 6000 rpm band.
Not unusual in engines of this size
The max HP of the 30 may equal a particular 50 but the prop type and rpm wher this is developed will NOT be the same.

captinjohn

One thing for sure, a good tunned pipe on a DLE30 may be fun and really find out how the engine will hold up to some high RPM. I am really curious now how fast a pylon racer type of airplane would be with the DLE30 engine, and the right speed pipe & prop on it! Best Regards Capt,n[X(]

Bobhend

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I just canceled my Tower Hobby back-order based on what I have read here. Thanks for all the effort guys. The last thing I want is stalling problems. While it looks like the problem MAY be limited, and the factory MAY make design improvements, I don't want to be the guinea pig, plus I need to fly in cold weather. At least a few people here were having problems with the DLE30 stalling. I used to work at GM Rochester Products and I have a huge respect for fuel pooling, carburetor & manifold parts design and quality. Tremendous effort was always required to make carbs and manifolds that worked, it was an art. You have not even touched on the 10% alcohol, and range or Reed Vapor pressure fuels that the carbs have to contend with. In other words, it is no surprise if it takes $500 to build a small gas engine that meets all our requirements.

I have four planes I would like to use a DL30 on because they are very expensive to run, good 4S fuel is over $30 here. They are currently running ASP 180 [CMP Katana 72"] and ST-2300 with Perry carb [SIG Rascal 110] . I concluded that I want to get into gas with a 50cc. For 30cc, OK let's say cost is no object but I need 18# thrust and weight [eng, muffler, ignition] under 3# . What should I buy ? For example, EVO 26 [$450].

apalsson

My Feedback: (1)

Hey Bob,

I think we need to be mindful of how Internet forums tend to give a somewhat scewed picture of the world. What I mean by saying that is that human nature will cause us to be quicker reporting problems with products than when everything works OK. In other words, product problems become newsworthy whereas if everything works as stated, it isn't.
Personally, I have limited experience with the DLE30 but I do have some and have not experienced any problems. Quite the contrary, they have been quite good once properly broken in.
Admittedly, my flying style probably don't include lots of prolonged idle and maybe the warm climate here contributes to better evaporation of the fuel. I really don't know.

The DLE30 is quite common here in Australia and I don't hear any reports of problems. Maybe us Aussies are more shy of reporting problems or maybe they are just overstated? Again I don't know.

There are several excellent engines out there in a similar size range. 3W28, RC Aero 28cc is another one. These two are at very different price points, by the way.

Good luck with all of it and Merry Christmas to you and family

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

The DLE 30 does not have an in flight stalling problem. Period.

A few have had what I believe to be personal issues with the enfine stalling after they lifted a wingtip on the ground. Not even close to air stalling. Some have complained they have been unable to attain an idle low enough to suit their needs. Much of both issues can likely be charged off to the user since many of them are working with their first gasser. Tuning and break in are everything and I'm still seeing posts in various forums where neither is being done before trying to establish baseline values.

I believe there are only a few engines that have had real problems, and most of those those were remedied by installing the engine in a slightly different position.

Glad you cancelled the Tower order though. Gives a chance back to the established DLE dealers that invested all the time building the product name and establishing the strong customer support system they have.

Checklst

Have to agree fully with T.O.M ............I don't own the engine, but so far it would seem that a vary low percent have experienced problems. Usually a design flaw has a high rate of failure, and a quality control issue will show itself as a low occurrence problem.............a lot of this low occurrence problems can be traced to user experience.....most times.

I see far to many folk with perfect running 30's to think it's some big design flaw. If I was in the market for a 30 it personally would not keep me from a purchase.....but the Syssa 30 would also be at the top of my list too.

JMO of course.

Hajduk

Hi,

My first post on this thread.

I am planning on DLE 30 and AeroWorks Yak 54. 1.2. I would like to install smoke system as well. Does anybody know which smoke muffler would fit DLE30?

Thanks,

Bobhend

My Feedback: (1)

I am just going to wait a while on the DLE 30 and see if it can match the DLE50's excellent reputation. The SYSSA SAP180-HP looks great, it is $430; the EVO 26 is $400 to $450 but says "discontinued" at HH. I ended up buying a Turnigy TGY52 for now, priced "too low to print" at Hobbyking.

captinjohn

Well it is pretty cold here today in Michigan and I ran my DLE30 again. It ran very nice today. A Friend came over and I showed him it will start every time with one flip. Yep it did...10 times in a row. Then I said..lets try something! I started it with a one finger flip!! I got sick of the cold, and removed the engine from test stand and it is going to go on my new G202 form CMP. Zippi had one and said his flew great. So that is the end of COLD weather testing and freezing to death! Capt,n P.S. there is not a gas engine this powerfull for the price.

Ken Cz

Delete

3frcu

My contribution from Spain:

Outside temp 5ºC. Engine four hours broke-in. With mineral oil 4%. Then syntetic oil 2.5%. High needle 2 turns. Low needle 1 to 1 1/4 turns. Even in idle with 3000 rpm the engine dies out when tilted. Always. With low needle slightly rich or slightly lean. No difference. Tilting means the engine quits.

This is NOT my first gas engine at all. It is my first engine that quits when tilted. I had two flights that ended in dead-stick.
I want not to to risk anymore my models with this engine.

VeeAte

I notice Hobbyking removed the russian guys review of the engine showing pictures taken through the exhaust port showing the cylinder wall on the TGY engine. You can see machining grooves inside the bore. And I am talking grooves!
Also if you read the reviews that are still on the HK website you will see a fair number of people having problems with the ignition.
When you get yours be sure to check the cylinder condition when looking through the exhaust port.

VeeAte

Found it.

Cyberwolf

My Feedback: (4)

They must just drill and plate by the looks of it*L* Thats poor to say the least.