w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Open up the low speed mixture needle a little

Gabrielsande

Hi again,if you go back on the thread.will see I done all the possible needles combinations, with the engine running if you go 1/8 of a turn at the time,closing it runs better and smoother on the lean side,so I get there and then go back 1/8 of a turn, and you can hear it reacher like four stroking on a 2 stroke, anyway if you leave the engine idling for 2-3 minutes and then apply full power,it picks up sharply instantly, with not a single coff, the only thing I noticed, the high end neddle does no make  much change at least you close it completly, again running in the ground engine  warm, if you open the neddle all the way, the engine still running, with no sustancial sign of getting too reach, thats why I think it could be the carb not pumping or keeping the correct fuel pressure.

Will try to order a new gasket set,and diafhrgarm, and try to adjust the lifting arm to give more flow, shouldnt be like this being a new engine with less than 2 hs running,but here we go,I understand now the difference in price of saito against OS, I had few OS 2 and 4 strokes some with more than 20 years running, just being trough few bearings sets due to corrosion, not a single running problem

Gabrielsande

Hello again,right got it ready for an other try  tomorrow,took the carb apart, adjusted the diafhrgarm level,checked plumbing again,done few test in my garden, starts very easy and idles for ever!, full throttle and picks up very sharp, without mising a beat. lets see how it does in the air!

I noticed,is probably over reeving, done few tests and found intresting numbers, APC 17x6- 9250 rpm, Menz 17X6 -9350 rpm! (this was the one try last time), hawk wooden 18X6-8100, don't know which will be the best one to keep rpm around 8500 is a big drop beatwen 17x6 and 18x6, could try a 17x7,16x8 or 17x8.

see ya!

Gabrielsande

Right!,

Again,at ground, all was good, nice idle and no hesitation at all,check rpm 9180 with the 17x6 apc ,kind of normal,batteries fully charged,on take of again the same hesitating,the running was very poor,and going quick to knife edge or pulling up sharply,it was almost quitting.
This time I took with me a normal ni-mh 2600mah 6v battery, to try replacing the lipo+regularor /i was using to power the ignition,so I did,removed the regulator and lipo and installed the heavier ni-mh,just to see if was any lack of power at load from the regulator, despite was a 6v 3Amps,regulator it was a "turngy "cheap one.

**at first I blamed the hesitation on knife edge due to gravity,but lerned it was because the engine is on full load on that attitude and spark struggled if a problem with the ignition/power**

So started again for the second attempt and for my suprise,at ground the engine was far out of tune,it was idling very rough and quitting at full power, something to do with the regulator? I don't know,anyway tunned high and low end again, got it perfect (at ground) on take of it was almost perfect it missed just one stroke I could say, and flying was good, again it lost a bit of power going for the first knife edge,but after flying 2 minutes giving it some gas, it was getting better, and better, vertical lines were consistant,and knife edge very solid, I did noticed if slowing down for 1 minute flying slow a 1/4 of the gas and then giving full power,going up sharp or in to knife edge,still missing a couple of beats, but then goes ok, it seems like it does itwhen cool ,same like with glow engines,but if you keep throtteling up and down, and keep the engine warm it picks up instantlly. I had got here before if you look back on the thread at the same situation,let see if the next fly is not all over the place again!.

So as it is Im happy with it, because that little miss time totimeannoy me yes!, but the sound of that big four strokes goes over that fault!, I tried almost everithing, againbefore this replaced fuel lines for bigger ones,fuel filter,and the carb wastaken apart cleaned (despite still new).

Conclusion: I really would like to see more people having succes with this engine, I think they done a kind of mistake, mixing a walbro with a glow type barrel (plastic) carb, normal walbros are dead easy to set up,and they are 100% reliable,why they dont use a normal butterfly type walbro carb?? all my 2 stroke petrol engines dont have any issue at all once set from new, you never touch them, and they are really smooth through the whole throttle, and you will get more spares, I couldnt find a set of gasketsfor this carb, from horizon you just get the base gasket thats it!.

********Just a guessbased onobservation, this barrel type carb looks like varies the mix, on the mechanical movement /adjustmentof the barrel,getting the needlle in and out+ the vacuum generated on the venturi like glow ones, normal walbros depends on the jet next to the butterfly, and only based on the vacuum created depending on the butterfly position,so if you apply full power and the engine does not go up on rpm, because excesive load,the mix will be more accurate for that situation and probably the reason why these are so difficult to et right... anyway is just my guess********

Ibet the next generation of petrol saitos will come with a standard walbro!

Also sent few mails to horizon UKabout this problems andasked them about getting a complete gasketset, they didnt reply,at least to tell me they received the e-mail, for the time being it looks like you have to buy a whole new carburattor if having problems, until some one starts stocking this gaskets/repair kit for the wyd carb.

Yes you could fit a normal walbro with little modification,and also an other ignition, but at the end you are paying a lot for an engine you have to heavy modify to get a reliable running, when cheap chinese engines came set and tested, they run almost out of the box with no problems

So lets see next time....

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Good report

Gabrielsande

Thanks !

Gabrielsande

Hi, had an other flight today, after some time, and kind of still doing the same,is not too bad and at least, it keeps running.

First part of the fly was ok, consistant knife edge, but after few minutes, it was coffing a lot at knif edge again!.so taking it easy, done a 10 minutes fight, landed check the fuel level, it was at 3/4 of the tank. so driving back home, my brain was going through the problem again, and I tough, should I try fitting a perry pump before the carb to help a bit?, or may be the ignition module faulty??, there is a lot in these fourms about people swapping the saito module for a rcxel one, might be a good move just to leave the carb set as it is and fit a new module to see how it goes ,will se..

Anyway despite the coffing,it worth the hassle, airplane sounds very nice,smooth and quiet, power is just right .

 I swapped the crrc pro26 with a dle 30 v2 on my other plane, and the power now is crazy, but the standard exhaust is kind of stright out! so it sounds worse than a old big chainsaw, like the power it goes vertical for ever on a 18X8, but saito is more enjoyable!

Gabrielsande

Hi, coming back to this issue

 Again I can confirm there is a fuel feed problem, with these engines, it seems some times, there is no pulse coming from the intake manifold, like in the old cars vacuum type wipers, at full throttle they were very slow some times not working at all. I think the same happens with these engines, when full throttle little pulse there, so it will relay on the acumulated fuel or the vacuum generated on the carbs venturi. so thaths wy I think it will cof time to time completly randomly.

Now it goes really well,and so far after few flights no dead sticks, but still behaving like a glow engine, idle is ok for a minute or so then it gets rich and if you leave it idling it gets rough and rough and it dies,but giving some throttle it clears up and then it gets perfect,if you try to sort this then it goes very lean in the air, in flight with the engine hot is ok it runns very nice,but some times it will miss o couple of beats, especially if you do a long 45 degree dive with the throttle shut and then you apply full power. But it still sooth after, some times it does it flicking quick in to knife edge.

I think a solution probably will be to drill and put a nipple on the fuel regulator side to feed some fuel through an other line from a perry pump,dont think it will work in the same line before the carb,I have to analize the carb to find the best way to add some extra fuel to keep a constant feed to the jet at any attitude.

Bear in mind is not bad now and probably on a scale airplane, flying at a constant speed, doing just mild acrobatics will be just fine.

Time will tell, there is no many people flying these fg-30 yet I would like to see more feedback!


Cheers all!

And Happy 2011!! 

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Just put a vibrating type Perry pump on the bottom two rear screws of the back plate and feed the engine with another pump?

Gabrielsande

Hi, what you mean, from tank to the carb?

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

Have this Perry pump suppliment the pump already in the carb?

MercerAUST

I have found, with my gas Saito (FG-14), that it has taken a fair bit of time to 'run in' before I can get a reliable tune. I would say persist for at least 4 hrs air time before looking at non-standard fixes. Mine kept getting better and better with use. I have also found that it is better to go rich on the low needle which enables you to squeeze a bit more lean on the high needle (probably nearly a quarter of a turn), resulting in much better WOT running in the air.

Gabrielsande

Hi again,

 engine still standard with no mods, I had probably less than 10 x10 mins flights, at the moment is quite reliable, apart from coffing time to time, completly exporadic,and not resulting on dead sticks,so I think will keep fliyng it for a wile, the problem is I had 2 more planes fitted with crrc pro and dle engines I keep flying so they all are having no much time in the air, Im allways rotate them, but I have to say those cheap engines after tunning them from the first time, they never gave me any trouble,eaven using the standard cheap sparkplugs which came with them.... but you can't beat the 4stroke sound and the torque at low rpm.

Other thing is wy saito 30cc recomends 17x6 I tried a 18x6 menz and it was kind of strugle, wile dle uses a 18x8! and goes vertical for ever probably will need a 18x10 to calm it down a bit yes dle weights 1.2kg against 1.4kg saito and pulls 3.7 hp against 2.8hp, and for those which does not belive on hp figures, I tested both engines from new on the same airframe and there is a huge difference, of corse dle sounds like chainsaw with free exhaust and by the time you put an exhaust system, the added weight and loss of power could come close to saito.

Still think saito sound is the plus side apart from those issues,they should use a normal butterlfy type walbro,using a mechanical fuel pump or something instead. to make them more user friendly and lasting longer, I don't think the plastic barrel and brass low end neaddle will take to much abuse, and also the plastic orange spacers/seals looks like they get brittle quick,will be other source of problems, my carb after 2 fights was loose ,so I had to remove all them bolts and apply some locktite to all of them, and I noticed then, those spacers are very rigid and will crack with time for sure.

Still like the quality looks and sound of the saito, so if they listen to customers and they addres those problems (reconize them first) following versions will be better and better.

outacontrol41

My Feedback: (9)

I just bought a Saito FG-30 but before I found and read this thread. Hope and pray I don't have all these problems. It's going in a Hangar 9 J-3 Cub. I wonder if the problems Gabriel was having had anything to do with how the engine was positioned....sideways or inverted? Everyone seems to install them on the test stand cylinder side up and they run fine. Then they fasten them to the plane side ways or inverted and then they don't run so fine? Make a difference?

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

Been reading through this and I have some carb comments.

What you have is a WYL type carb. Interesting little beast that I have a great amount of experience with. It has plusses and minuses, with one of the minuses being the quality of the rotating barrel. On the plus side the WYL provides excellent fuel economy when paired with a slightly undersized intake opening. It also provides one of the best mid ranges you can obtain.

Walbro has been having a lot of trouble getting their WYL vendors to make consistent quality barrel assemblies. You might have noticed the barrel sticking when roated with no linkage attached. If so, that alters throttle performance quite a bit, and makes for throttle up hesitation. Those barrels can be ordered separately from Walbro in an attempt to obtain a good one. You may have to order 10 or 15 of them (or more) to find 1 good one.

You mentioned that when turning the needle it didn't change the high end. It can't really. That adjustment needle is pretty much for the low end. 90% of tuning effort is dedicated to the low end. For every 1% change in exhaust gasses on the bottom end there is only about .2% change in the top end. The reason is because the top end is controlled by the main jet size, which can be replaced. You probably have something like a .44m or .46m jet inside. But that depends on the venturi size of the carb. The size is stamped on the top of the jet. You might be able to go larger but tuning the bottom well can leave the top sputtering rich. If you go a little smaller jet the top end leans out some automatically

The spray bar in a WYL may have the fuel orifice oriented 90 degrees off from verticle. If so, the spray bar can be easily popped out of the carb section and re-installed with the orifice pointed down directly into the carb throat. It helps, believe me.

As for fuel draw, they do just fine. They have the ability to pull fuel up the line from a can situated on the floor a full 4 feet below the engine. Better if the engine and tank are within about 4 inches of each other in height but duel draw is usually not a problem with them.

It's a fun carb to play around with since it provides a lot of flexibility in jetting. As for life cycle, the carb components will probably last longer than you will have the engine. They routinely go 500+ hours. What the WYL does not like is dirt. Filter your fuel well.

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The Saito uses a WYD which is somewhat like a WYL.

The low speed needle is in the center of the throttle arm and enters the spray bar just like most glow engine carbs.

The throttle barrel is cam actuated like most glow engine carbs and moves in and out as you move the throttle arm. The barrel spring holds the barrel in and not out like on glow engines.
To choke the carb, close the barrel and pull out on it to expose the end of the spray bar for more fuel.

Tired Old Man

My Feedback: (1)

As you said, pretty close to the same as the WYL in those aspects. Hopefully they're having better luck with the barrel quality in the WYD than they are with the WYL.

affas

Started my FG 30 today and used the IBEF killswitch/regulator from Troybuiltmodels. Started ok, idle was pretty good but the transition to top end was bad as the top end itself. I switched to a 5,2V regulator and it did run better but was still unable to made the top end run fine.

For me it looks like the 5% (1:20) Oil mixture is way to much. A lot of oil outside the carb on the firewall.

What voltage are you using and are you using 1:30 after a short time?

affas

Had another tank with break in today. Starts easily and works pretty ok- ,but top end is totally missing. Unreliable and sputtering on all needle settings. The IBEF thing are adjusted to exactly 6V. Changed the plug, adjusted the gap, valve adjusted and still not good even if it does not die.

Seems like the engine is not getting enought fuel on the top end.


I think the carb is the big problem, wondering if I will modify to a standard Warlboro. Anyone who has done this???

Or other comments?

MercerAUST

I had problems with poor running on my FG-14. Replacing the spark plug (always the fist thing to try) and taking apart/reassembling the fueling set up (second thing to try) did not help. I stuck with it for a year or two becasue at least the engine ran reliably. Someone suggested that I try the electronic ignition timing by rotating the Hall Senor a few mm to retard or advance the ignition timing, to see if this would make a difference.

Well, I did and it made all the difference. My engine has run perfectly ever since. Mind you, I had replaced the Hall Sensor aftera crash and it is possible I didn't put it on quite right.

I just suggest this becasue it is very easy to test and might (might not) make a difference.

Gabrielsande

w8ye

My Feedback: (16)

The cough is rather common to the Saito gas engines.

I think your key point here is that the caugh would never be a problem in a scale or sport fly around plane.

nudger

Hi Guys
Have been following this tread for a while and thought Id share my problems with this engine.
I too have the saito cough and the missing problem.What I have worked out is the ignition pack doesnt kick out a big enough spark for the 0.7-0.8 gap.reducing the gap to 0.4-0.5 helps with the missing but does not cure it.Ive spent hours and days messing with the mixture to no avail.I can get 5-6 goodish flights and then it will go and dead stick on me on take off.In 10 months ive had 9 dead sticks on take off.....crap!
As to the saito cough it always does it on a barrell roll on most flights...very annoying.
I like the sound and economy of the engine so i thought lighthing wont strike twice and bought another one....big mistake got the same problems as the first..not very happy.
Saito have got big problems with these engines that they wont admit too.To add insult to injury the first engine 10 months old stripped 4 teeth of the cam ending up in a dead stick,resulting in a very damaged model.Now totally p****d off.

If I had my time again I would not touch these fgs with a barge pole...just my opinion.


Nudge

outacontrol41

My Feedback: (9)

I bought my FG30 last year and installed it in my H9 J-3 Cub 1/4 scale. Haven't gotten around to starting it yet and now I'm really scared to with all I've been reading from unhappy pilots from all over. Obviously it is not an isolated problem to 1 or a few engines. I love the looks of my plane and I'd hate to wreck it over an overpriced, under-tested, unreliable engine. I was mainly relying on the good name of Saito and their reputation when I bought the engine, now I'm a bit worried that I, too, made a mistake. It was expensive enough to buy the engine, now we have to invest more $$ in a better ignition pack?? Pisser! [:@][:@]

nudger

Hi Guys
Just to add to my last comment I bought a Rcexel ignition pack and it cured the missing problems..but its somthing you shouldnt have to do with a new engine.If you get any missing when bench testing with the original ignition swap to the Rcexl before flying.

Cheers Nudge