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FAI fuel

Old 08-12-2009, 09:04 PM
  #51  
captinjohn
 
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: Walther

I think that the Sig castor is good oil and not cheap oil that others sell!
These other oils....cheap like in low price or cheap like in low quality? Capt,n
Old 08-12-2009, 09:25 PM
  #52  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: Walther

It seems to me that $22.99 per gal of castor is less then $44 per gal of Klotz synthitics but I was never very good at math.
I stated my qustion wrong in a way. The amout & $$ of fuel each product would treat one gallon of fuel is the question. I read you need a lot more castor per gal (20%) but synthetic you would use far less per gallon of fuel because of the much higer ratio you use(40-1 50-1 100-1) depending on brand of synthtic used. Gets kinda hard to figure this all out??? So there then is another question...what synthetic oils mix with alcohol and can you use a 80% alky/10%castor/2% synthetic mix??? Thanks capt,n
Old 08-12-2009, 10:08 PM
  #53  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

ORIGINAL: captinjohn
I stated my qustion wrong in a way. The amout & $$ of fuel each product would treat one gallon of fuel is the question. I read you need a lot more castor per gal (20%) but synthetic you would use far less per gallon of fuel because of the much higer ratio you use(40-1 50-1 100-1) depending on brand of synthtic used. Gets kinda hard to figure this all out??? So there then is another question...what synthetic oils mix with alcohol and can you use a 80% alky/10%castor/2% synthetic mix??? Thanks capt,n
Nope. As stated before, that 80:20 mix is a standard adopted for universal competition use, and that is all you should read into it. If you are thinking of the ratios you see printed on 2-stroke oil bottles, like 50:1 or 100:1 - those are NOT recommended ratios for the oil to be used at. These are the maximum level to which the oil can be diluted and still retain film strength. Those super thin ratios are for gasoline burning two strokes with needle bearing con rods and whatever else that allows it.

The only ratio to mix fuel for your glow engine at is that recommended by the engine maker or another sensible authority on the engine itself. So no, you can't replace 10% of castor with 2% of synthetic is the short answer. But you could very successfully use a 80-82% alky, 18-20% oil fuel, of which the oil package itself is a blend of castor and synthetic to the liking of the engine. An 80% synthetic/20% castor oil package at 18-20% of total is commonly used with aero engines of contemporary manufacture.

MJD

Old 08-13-2009, 03:18 AM
  #54  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: David Bathe

As stated 15% synthetic works brilliantly for me.
David,


The 15% synthetic oil you are talking about, no-doubt comes from Fuchs (Aerosynth II/IIIā„¢ and Aerosaveā„¢), or Motul (Microā„¢)...

These oils are not available in North America and those available to most Americans (the exception is Cooper's synthetic, which is ester based and as good as them (the European brands), but its distribution is rather limited), just don't do the job as well.
Even these European brands (and Cooper's) don't offer the same high temperature protection as cheap, plain, first-pressing castor oil...

The lubricity these European brands (and Cooper's) offer, however, is bar-none; unlike the widely available American brands, which are inferior to castor oil by a rather wide margin.

Old 08-13-2009, 06:36 AM
  #55  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: Walther

I think that the Sig castor is good oil and not cheap oil that others sell!

It was my impression that Sig sells rebadged Bakers AA castor oil, which IS the best available. In fact, I've never heard of any brand other than Bakers that was sold for our application.


Ed Cregger
Old 08-13-2009, 09:26 AM
  #56  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Ibelieve "Bakers" refers to the oils use as acceptable in cooking.
Old 08-13-2009, 09:54 AM
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NM2K
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You're not being serious, are you Jeffie? <G>

I don't think the eaters of such food would be happy with their sudden need for toilet facilities...


Ed Cregger
Old 08-13-2009, 10:28 AM
  #58  
Walther
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Default RE: FAI fuel

NM2K; You are correct that the sig castor in indeed Bakers. This is the best I know of.
Old 08-13-2009, 01:24 PM
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: NM2K


ORIGINAL: Walther

I think that the Sig castor is good oil and not cheap oil that others sell!

It was my impression that Sig sells rebadged Bakers AA castor oil, which IS the best available. In fact, I've never heard of any brand other than Bakers that was sold for our application.


Ed Cregger

Bakers is not just a brand, in fact not sure it is a brand at all. There is a Bakers company that imports castor oil, so maybe it is as well. But Bakers AA is a grade, not just a brand. There is also Bakers A which is the second pressing.
Old 08-14-2009, 06:23 AM
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NM2K
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Default RE: FAI fuel

There you go, Sport Pilot. We have some knowledgeable folks, such as you, on the forum which is a definite plus for the R/C community.


Ed Cregger
Old 08-14-2009, 08:21 AM
  #61  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: DarZeelon
The 15% synthetic oil you are talking about, no-doubt comes from Fuchs (Aerosynth II/IIIā„¢ and Aerosaveā„¢)[/color]
Indeed.[sm=thumbs_up.gif]
Old 08-14-2009, 08:44 AM
  #62  
w8ye
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Sig Caster only states that it is "AA"

Old 08-14-2009, 10:32 AM
  #63  
Walther
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I think that castor oil has been bad mouthed. I am trying hard to get people to stay with the glow engines and it seems that the cost is the biggest concern!
Old 08-14-2009, 11:17 AM
  #64  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

100% castor oil lubrication is ideal for plain bearing engines. The thickness of the castor oil helps the crankshaft "float" inside of the brass bushing for smooth performance and long life.

What I don't know is, how well do commonly available plain bearing engines respond to 0% nitro?

The Thunder Tiger GP series, O.S. Max LA series, MECOA K&B Sportster series, and some currently available models from Enya (like the SS40 SNV or 09-IV, for example), are all examples of readily available plain bearing engines that would be ideal candidates for 100% castor lubrication.

My guess is that the Enyas or the K&B Sportsters would be most likely to run well at 0% Nitro and 20% castor. The Thunder Tiger GP series would probably be a little finicky with regard to tuning, but would probably run well if tuned correctly. I just don't know if O.S. Max LA series engines run at a high enough compression ratio to operate well at 0% nitro.

Hopefully someone who has run these engines at 0% nitro can comment.

The Thunder Tiger GP series would probably be ideal test subjects if you're looking for inexpensive glow operation. The GP-42 is available for $59.99 while the GP-61 sells for a mere $85.99. Both come with 3-year factory warranties and both are very good performers. If tuned to run well on FAI fuel (0% nitro and 20% all castor), these would be the ideal combination of inexpensive to buy, inexpensive to run, powerful, reliable, and readily available.
Old 08-14-2009, 01:21 PM
  #65  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Love GP42s. Mine would not be a good test mule, it is hot rodded.
Old 08-14-2009, 01:22 PM
  #66  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Big Ed,


That crankcase bushing is bronze, rather than brass.

You are right in that these engines would benefit most from all castor lubricant... Those with a meehanite cast-iron piston running in a hardened steel sleeve, would benefit even more from 25%, or 29% castor oil...

I have no doubt nearly all engines will run on straight FAI fuel.

Even high-compression engines, however, will be more tedious to tune properly...

The absence of nitro makes the stoichiometric ratio-range, into a rather singular ratio, so those that never cared to learn how to perfectly properly adjust their engines, will be required to; if they want them to run decently.
Old 08-14-2009, 01:25 PM
  #67  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Castor oil in food



In the food industry, castor oil (food grade) is used in food additives,<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-12">[13]</sup> flavorings, candy (e.g., chocolate),<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-13">[14]</sup> as a mold inhibitor, and in packaging. Polyoxyethylated castor oil (e.g., Cremophor EL)<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-14">[15]</sup> is also used in the foodstuff industries.<sup class="reference" id="cite_ref-15">[16]</sup>

Old 08-14-2009, 01:55 PM
  #68  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: jeffie8696

Castor oil in food



In the food industry, castor oil (food grade) is used in food additives,<sup class=''reference'' id=''cite_ref-12''>[13]</sup> flavorings, candy (e.g., chocolate),<sup class=''reference'' id=''cite_ref-13''>[14]</sup> as a mold inhibitor, and in packaging. Polyoxyethylated castor oil (e.g., Cremophor EL)<sup class=''reference'' id=''cite_ref-14''>[15]</sup> is also used in the foodstuff industries.<sup class=''reference'' id=''cite_ref-15''>[16]</sup>


Well, there you go. We have another knowledgeable asset in our group! <G>


Ed Cregger
Old 08-14-2009, 02:03 PM
  #69  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

And after some more digging. A clarification.
<pre>"The Baker Castor Oil Company of New York is the largest manufacturer in the industry"</pre>
Old 08-14-2009, 02:17 PM
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Default RE: FAI fuel

100% castor oil lubrication is ideal for plain bearing engines. The thickness of the castor oil helps the crankshaft "float" inside of the brass bushing for smooth performance and long life.
You are right in that these engines would benefit most from all castor lubricant...
Why do you say this?

Bill
Old 08-14-2009, 02:55 PM
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Default RE: FAI fuel

Buy a case of Omega oil from Morgan 1-800-633-7556
Old 08-14-2009, 10:00 PM
  #72  
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I just Ran my Kavan 50,, 4 cycle on strait alky. I put only 2 oz of Klotz oil per gallon. It started harder...so I primed it with 10% glow fuel and it started better. I then fine tuned it better for the no nito mix. With real good OS Max "F" glow plugs it ran good. By the way...it has its own oil supply in crankcase that has cooling fins and a magnetic drain plug. Very nice engine. Capt,n
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Old 08-15-2009, 03:04 AM
  #73  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

I remember using nitro once back in the mid 70's but that was just for a K&B 15 in a CL rat race competition (which we won and it was a state championship too ). Other than that I've never used it because I've never found it to be necessary. The method of supporting the crankshaft (plain bearing or ball raced) makes no difference as to how the engine will respond to no nitro. Neither does compression ratio make an engine harder or easier to tune. All a higher compression does is allow the methanol to burn more efficiently so giving more power. Maybe it's because zero nitro is normal for me but I've never found any engine hard to tune, certainly not this mythical "one click goes too lean and one click too rich" business. Obviously the needle is more sensitive but if you take off your boxing gloves they're surprisingly easy to tune.
Old 08-15-2009, 03:30 AM
  #74  
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Default RE: FAI fuel


ORIGINAL: downunder

... Neither does compression ratio make an engine harder or easier to tune. All a higher compression does is to allow the methanol to burn more efficiently thus giving more power. Maybe it's because zero nitro is normal for me but I've never found any engine hard to tune, certainly not this mythical ''one click goes too lean and one click too rich'' business. Obviously the needle is more sensitive but if you take off your boxing gloves they're surprisingly easy to tune.
All true, Brian.

Regarding the remark in bold; what I meant in my previous post, was that adjusting an engine that due to a high compression ratio, cannot run well on fuel that contains nitro, will have to be more 'exact', thus it will require a greater effort; at least from those used to running lower compression engines on, say, 15% nitro... (the moderators don't like it when I use the term 'spoiled brats'... )

Methanol-only fuel will combust within a 'range' of stoichiometric ratios also, but this range is not nearly as wide as that of 15% nitro fuel.
And the effect of mixture strength on eventual ignition timing, is much more pronounced, with no-nitro fuel.

I have yet to see any engine, that ''one click goes too lean and one click too rich'' would really describe...
Old 08-15-2009, 08:03 AM
  #75  
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Default RE: FAI fuel

One more question, would there be something that we could add to Ethanol to make it work with a glow plug?

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