http://www.desertaircraft.com/shooto...al_Known_E.pdf




now thats just absalutely INSANE!!!...i didnt read the thread, but i saw tuscon sequences right after looking at this,, and i thought i post it...lo



-Phil

Phil from Westerville,

You almost saw that last Wednesday afternoon, had I had my airplane with me.

Yes, the clinchers in that one are the first line, Two neg snaps and then two-2 point rolls on the 45 degree downline, then the changeup circle (have to think that one through before flying it).

Whoever wrote these sequence seems to like half negative snaps, 2 point rolls and figure "6"s. I really like that known, 6 maneuvers. I had to use a caller for this one. Its like a bow tie thing, then a cuban, then another bowtie, all in the center maneuver area.

A question, will the sequences be flown, as in IMAC, 2 knowns per flight, or just one, since this is special. the first known is quite short?

Thanks in advance,

Don

Dave, TY,

I'll be at NVRC today, leaving now, spare a church break.

I'll be at NVRC also Tomorrow.

Flew all day at the FARM yesterday.

See ya,

Don

Don,

The schedule calls for all rounds to be single sequence flights, for all the classes at the Shootout.

For those that are interested, here is the current schedule for this year's Shootout, posted on the Shootout website at www.desertaircraft.com

Tuesday, October 4th
Check-In: Beginning at 1:00 p.m.
Invitational Class, Wednesday, Unknown A will be distributed: 2:30 p.m.
Judge's Meeting/Seminar: 3:00 p.m.
Attendance is mandatory for all judges.
Pilots are highly encouraged to attend.
Location will be the TIMPA Barn.
Please bring your own lawn chair.

Wednesday, October 5th
Check-In: 6:30 a.m.
Pilot Meeting: 7:30 a.m.
Unlimited, Advanced, Intermediate and Sportsman Flights
Two Knowns, single sequence rounds
Followed immediately by Invitational Class Flights
Unknown A, Known A

Thursday, October 6th
Pilot Meeting: 7:30 a.m.
Unlimited, Advanced, Intermediate and Sportsman Flights
Unknown A, Known
Followed immediately by Invitational Class Flights
Unknown B, Known B

Friday, October 7th
Pilot Meeting: 7:30 a.m.
Unlimited, Advanced, Intermediate and Sportsman Flights
Unknown B, Known
Followed immediately by Invitational Class Flights
Unknown C, Known C
Contest Dinner

Saturday, October 8th
Pilot Meeting: 7:30 a.m.
Unlimited, Advanced, Intermediate and Sportsman Final Flights
Unknown C, Known
Followed immediately by Four-Minute Freestyle Flights
Followed immediately by Invitational Class Flights
Unknown D, Known D

Sunday, October 9th
Pilot Meeting: 7:30 a.m.
Invitational Class Flights
Unknown E
Followed immediately by Four-Minute Freestyle Flights
Followed immediately by Invitational Class Flights
Known E
Followed immediately by Four-Minute Freestyle Flights
Awards Ceremony



Regards,

Anna Wood
Scorekeeper and Webmaster
Tucson Aerobatic Shootout

Anna, thank you very much for the information. This is very helpful regarding the sequences. This appears to be quite an event.

Dave, come on by, your welcome at NVRC tomorrow. Could use a heading check on the sequences. I have a lot of favorites at this time. Maybe I'm dreaming but I can lock up two negative vertical snaps after the 45 degree 6 of 4 down. These 3 maneuvers together are action packed, partly because they are flown downwind (maneuver 6, 7 8 known E). Bring me into reality....tell me like it is. I want to improve, surgically speaking. Have not tried Thursday known yet. Perhaps you can call it.

Don

Can't play tomorrow- I have the kids.

Keep me in the loop on when you are going out between now and when you leave for Tuscon- I am very happy to meet up and provide some feedback.

Dave

Bring 'em. I have some too. They can all go swimming in the pool.

Enter the box high inverted. Very high. Pull to 45 degree downline, pause ever so slightly, just enough to draw a short line. Remind yourself it has to be a short line, because there is a lot to get done here. Two negative snaps out, two 2 point rolls opposite. Draw an ever so short line again and then smoothly make a large radius 3/4 outside loop to a 45 degree downline, perform 1 1/2 rolls, push to a large 3/4 outside loop again, and then do 1 1/2 positive snap, push to exit inverted.

Don't pause too much now, because another high one. Push to 45 degee upline, pause count 1,2, then do a 2 of 4 point roll, opposite roll, pause an equal amount. This is where I need help. Someone will have to help coach me on the line segments making sure they are equal length. A couple judges at the JR challenge said that was hurting my score. The giant scale planes tend to slow down after rolls or snaps at the top of lines, so remembering to make the line segments equal is much different than it is in pattern, where speed is much more constant. Kill off as much airspeed as possible then push vertical down. Do 3 rolls to the left, half negative snap to the right, exit up.

Easy one next. One and one half rolls in, 1 1/2 Negative snap out. I love this Extra 300.

Next build a lot of speed, but pull up soon because you are flying down wind and must allow for drift at the top. Pull vertical pause for a segment, two positive snaps, draw an equal line, hammerhead, then 1 1/2 positive snaps down, exit inverted. Come back to center and do a loop with a 3 point roll at the top, exit up.

Another hammer head. Go far upwind for this one. Here comes the busy part. Hammer with two 2 point rolls up, hammer, then 1 1/2 negative snap with oppostite 2 of 4 point roll down. Exit up. Pause briefly, then pull vertical 2 point roll, then push to a 45 degree down line, do a 6 of a 4 on the 45 degree downline, push to vertical upline. Men separates from Boys. Two negative snaps on the upline, exit inverted high. Half square loop turnaround, 1 1/2 positive snap, opposite 1 1/2 negative snaps down, exit up. Easier to fly than to look at or contemplate.

Next is a reverse cuban 8. Six of 4 on the first 45 degree upline, 1 1/2 positive on the second 45 degree upline, and 2 point roll on the third 45 degree upline. Exit upright high. Easy as compared with the others.

Next is the maneuver that convinced Mark Leseburg to go with the mid wing design Extra. 1 1/2 positive snap, half inside loop, two 4 point rolls at the bottom. Finally, the last manevuer. Pull vertical (it normally is off center to one side because all those 4 point rolls take up a lot of room) Pull vertical 1 1/4 pos snap (again reminded how much I like the RadioWave Prototype) hammerhead, then 2 rolls on the downline, push to inverted exit cross box. No problem.

exit inverted

Another question for the experts...

Roll rate, within maneuvers. The rule book talks about rolls being centered on lines, and roll rate being constant during a roll element, but here is an example.

A "combination 8" with the first leg having two negative snaps and then two 2 point rolls opposite. The 2 point rolls will have a fairly high roll rate (unless one starts this maneuver at 1000 feet). Then the next 45 degree line contains 1 1/2 rolls. Do the 1 1/2 rolls have to have the same roll rate as the two 2 point rolls on the first segment?

Another example is the braintrust maneuver during Thursday's known. You have to trust your brain to roll through 2 rolls and not pay attention to the fast approaching ground. Otherwise you crash. You see, after exiting a figure 6 at mid box altitude, a center humpty from the top is next. The two rolls down will have a fairly high roll rate, then the negative snap on the upline is followed by an opposite 2 point roll. Does the 2 point roll have to have the same roll rate as the two rolls down? I'm also interpreting a higher exit altitude than entry altitude is ok (or vice versa).

After studying the rules, I believe that the roll rates for each independent line segment do not have to be the same, however I defer to the experts...

Don

Hi Don,

Roll rate has to be the same through the individual rolls only. Even roll/opposite roll can have different roll rates. The hesitations during a point roll don't have to be the same length as the partial roll, but they have to be constant throughout. You will most likely get away with gradually slowing down the roll rate on a continuous rolls just before exit (last 1/4 roll). I usually do that to help with nailing the exit without rolling extremely slow for the whole maneuver. I found over-rotating slightly and bumping the aileron the opposite way makes roll points look very crisp, but it's really hard to adapt for that kind of flying.

As far as equal line segments:

I learned to visually fixate on the spot where I plan the middle of my line segment to be. After I finish the initial partial loop, I remember the spot. I fly the whole line with minimal head/eye movement, always tracking the initial spot. After the rolls I visually copy and paste the distance. It beats counting, specially with all the airspeed robbing snaps.

I flew the Shootout Sunday known today and with little planning ahead, I didn't run out of space once on the second attempt. Those vertical 4 of 2s are a killer though.

P.

I love this extra 300. The vertical 4 of 2s are near effortless, as compared to any other design I've flown. If it gets off heading I can correct heading during the roll with no ill effects. And it only gets off the line if I don't line it up straight to start. Its great. It leave all the concentration on locking the wings at each point. Worked on pos snaps down. its great. Tonight. I will stay away from bumping the points, thats a downgrade per IMAC book, as well as roll segments differing roll rate on exit, for example. But the two rolls down have to be the same as the two half rolls up on a different leg of the same maneuver? Cheers...

So I worked tonight at keeping all the roll rates more constant. I need some coaching Dave. May head to Bealeton tomorrow evening. Maybe Andy Kane will be critical. Still at 3 sigma. Still need to learn unknowns. Here's one- 2000 TOC Sunday. Time to study before sleep.

Don

What kind of rudder coupling does the J-tec have ? I found both Dalton 260 and Godfrey 300 (both shoulder wing) need quite a bit of non-linear mixing both R->A and R->E to get a perfect yaw only moment with rudder application.

If it's not connected together by a line across the top in the aresti, it can be flown at different roll rates.

Too bad FARM co-incides with a NE contest

P.

Thanks for the inputs. Inderstand that this is all sequence flying control rates. I've not got into much 3D knife edge stuff (although its the best rolling harrier plane I've flown). The prototype has 14 percent opposite aileron mix with left rudder, and 15 percent right. My initial impression was that its not good and dihedral needs to be taken out. However, even with that mix in, I've never flown a plane that is as linear as this one. I can feel just a little bit of roll during the sides of a one roll circle (rudder on medium rate), but its by far the best flying plane I've flown. Pitch is near perfect. Only about 1/8 inch up elevator with left rudder and 1/16 inch with right rudder. For example during a loop with integrated 4 point roll, adding rudder causes a straight line during transition in the 330 design. Its because although mix is good for knife edge, when the plane is in the middle of a loop, it pitches with rudder as its applied, rolling from pint to inverted during the loop. The JTEC (Radiowave, as now I understand its called) 300 prototype does not do this at all. Is smooth like a pattern plane, all the way through. I can really tell the difference during verical point rolls in a crosswind. The rudder and elevator can be used to wind correct for weather vaning for example, during a roll, with no coupling. This is because of the large forward canopy, giving it a more balance side profile; more-so than the 260 design which has the canopy further back on the fuselage. Here is the clincher. The aircraft actually wants to self-correct on both upline rolls and (somehow) downline rolls. In other words I found that if a down line was off just a bit It somehow corrects itself by going more vertically on a downline. I've never experienced this before and its quite remarkable. In a positive snap going on a downline, the nose pitches up positive during the snap, but at the end of the snap the nose straightens out and wants to point straight down. Maybe its all in the radio setup, as control responses are more like Chip and Jason's setup, but I am not inclined to change, its magic. We will make improvements but right now its flying so well...

Don- send me your phone number @ [email protected]

My wife has a business and is currently in a situation where she is working 7 days a week- long days. With the kids I am not having an easy time finding a chance to get out and fly on the weekends.

Having said that, I have some flexibility in the afternoons- may be able to come out and put in a few sessions between now and the Shootout during the week. Let's coordinate by phone and keep the planes in the car......

Dave

Don flew this on Friday evening at Bealeton. It was quite an impressive combination of plane, engine, radio equipment and piloting skills. Under about 1/3 throttle the sound was all but quiet. Near idle the sound was quieter than a whisper. I'ts a DA-150 on cannisters of some kind.

Maybe Don will give us the details of the muffler (cannister?) and propeller set up.

Thanks for the show!

EXCAP232

Anna, another question...

Not clear on dropped rounds. Apologize if you've answered this before. Looks like one dropped round each of unknown and known, out of the first 3 (Wednesday thru Friday) then all the scores count for Saturday and Sunday, (neither dropped) and those two combined with the top 2 of each from Wed-Fri determines final score. Is this correct-. The dropped round language seems to imply more dropped if more rounds are flown, but not necessarily based on the schedule (maybe less if weather is a factor).

I just watched AeroSport video and Christophe fly his finals unknown from the TOC 2002. My snaps are presenting nearly identical, so I'll continue as I've been practicing. That's the baseline in my mind. His down lines are slow with the 2 blade he was running.

Dave, the prop I'm running is a 3 blade 28x12 Air Models. The cannisters are the standard PEFA type available from Desert Aircraft, that have been available for a while. I must make a plug for Desert Aircraft. The engine always starts each evening with absolute reliabilty, and normally on the first flip on subsequent flights. Really amazing. This is really a fine product and Dave Johnson has really got it together.

Having said all that, I feel a bit of nastalgia. Bill Bennett, the sponsor of the TOC, drove designs, powerplants, aircraft, and flying styles. Technology over the last 4 years really has not leaped like it did the 4 years prior to that, or the 4 prior to that, etc... Don't know, I think the next DLM (Don Lowe Masters) will really be pushing the envelope in terms of noise reduction technologies, as I understand. Personallly, the last time I flew a 32x10 Menz standard, the prop rip was so loud that it actually scared me coming off the last part of a one roll circle. Low noise is the wave of the future, although you will not see it at Tucson- I'll most likely switch to a 2 blade in the interest of power (at 3000 ft).
Cheers,
Don

... And of course, radio setups...

JR Equipment-

Two 8611 servos on each aileron, one 8611 on each elevator, and three 8611 servos on the rudder. A relatively simple, yet effective combination. I must note that I have the aluminum arms set at 1 1/4 inch out, so its not the full 3D 1 1/2 inch arm throw. Enough for very good 3D, but IMO optimized for sequence flying.

The JR servos are outstanding. The feel of the transmitter, and particularly the expo, is top notch.

I'm thinking the dihedral assists in the snap exits. I won't know until we try the flat wing. Random thoughts.

Don

Hello,

Just a note. Aerotech R/C Models already has this plane in kit form on their website. It is an awesome performer. I understand they are doing a 42% Extra 300 mid wing RTF for the Tucson Shootout like they did last year. Should be another awesome event.

Thanks

Dave Miller

Congrats Dave. Its a great design. Got the new Extra flying this weekend. Its really tight. Its great. Snaps left, snaps right are the same feel. Snaps nice and crisp positive like the Edge, but exits are very controllable. Negative snaps are controlled and well presentable. We also tried a few props for the Tucson sequences. The Bolly 32-10 and the Menz Standard 32x10. These larger props are not for normal flying due to noise, but for extra power expected as required by the 3000 ft altitude difference at Tucson. Menz 32x10 is the most powerful. There is now about .5 to .7 seconds additional time on some of the long down-lines and long 45 degree lines as required in the Tucson sequences. I had to Champaign toast (the last few glasses worth from the bottle I brought back from Romilly) with Al and Kevin from JTEC Radiowave on the fine design. It really has made the pilot workload dramatically reduced and it makes my flying look very professional. I giggle after snaps, saying, "did you see that", Andy K says I left hands off the Tx to show the lock after two positives on an upline (can' remember that one., carry on conversations during circles. I would like to thank Desert Aircraft, JR/Horizon, and most of all the JTEC/ Radiowave folks (and friends) who helped cover, paint, and finish this plane over the last two weeks.

Don,

Sorry for the delay in answering your dropped scores question, been a very busy week at my real job. I am going to get back with you on that question. I was sure that the Invitational pilots would carry the best two flights for the knowns and unknowns into the weekend, then they would be dropping an additional known and unknown. Keeping the best 3 flights for the knowns and the best 3 flights for the unknowns from what was carried into the weekend.

But...... now that you have asked the question, I need to confirm with Michael Marcellin to make sure that is what we had planned. I am 99% sure that is the plan and that is what I have written code for to calculate the scores. Just want to play it safe and make sure Michael and I didn't get our signals crossed.

Regards,

Anna

Good for them.What does this have to do with Don or Radiowave? I have nothing but respect for John and Aerotech,but your relentless schilling of their products is getting very tireing to read. Way to jump in and hijack a thread . Give it a break.

Saturday Unknown for invitational.

Come in the box from the left. Pull up and roll right twice (45 degree up) first part of reverse shark tooth. Opposite snap. Push down, 4 of 8 exit up.

Go well past (if wind is coming from left). Pull vertical figure N. 4 point roll up, 1 1/2 neg snap opposite 2 point roll on 45 downline, pull vertical 2 point roll, don't build too much speed because...

Figure 6, one postive spin at top, 3/4 inside loop, 3 of 2 point roll, same direction 1 1/2 pos snap to inverted, mid level.

Rolling circle left box, 270. outside, inside, outside. Push at center, quarter roll on upline, hammer head, pos snap on downline. Exit up.

Tailslide, now one roll up watch the nose carefully. I love the Radiowave Extra 300. I love this sequence. Its all in my head, but I know its going to go well.

Tailslide, wheels down, 2 of 4 down.

Next is a goldfish, two point roll on 1st 45, followed by 1 1/2 pos snap same direction. 3/4 inside loop, 1 1/2 rolls on 45 upline, exit inverted high.

4 point roll half loop, 8 point roll.

Pull 45, 2 point roll, half inside loop, neg snap opposite roll and a half exit up.

Pull 135 degrees to a 45 degree upline, two neg snaps, teardrop, push 5/8 outside loop to vertical downline, neg 3/4 snap to the right. Exit upright cross box.

That's all from memory. I'll check with Kevin before flying tomorrow in case I missed anything.

Cheers from Tucson. Somone is staring at me, time to log off the computer.

Don