Yo Rate1..I'm still here and now retired but with a brand new computing box...the old one has rendered me almost bald now !

Anyway, I promised you some piccies of my elevator hinges etc so here they are...bit out of focus but you'll get the idea. Buried in the elevator LE between each hinge are lengths of Sullivan goldenrod inners which act as the hinge beaing in the elevator. The Hinge itself is a close fitting (inside the goldenrod) length of music wire which is silver soldered to a bored out cap screw as pictured....this screws into a "tee" nut which is buried in the tip rib of each elevator half...it'll be "locked" with silicone cement to stop it from coming out (ouch!). The hinges themselves are pieces of CFRP sheet (each one of three per side slightly bigger than its neighbour. I'll cobble up a sketch of the elevator cross-section so you can better see how I did it. Ailerons and Rudde will be accomplished similarly. More anon and hope you enjoy your full size experiences in one of my associated (Boeing) products...you didn't say which dash number of '37!

Cheers

Superworm good to see ya. Well looks the old gang is gathered onece agian.

I fly the 300 and 500. Allthough I did my initial training on the 700 (NG). I just love the way she flies. The only way to describe it is with music and poetry wich does not fit on this sigth.

Myself is keeping my hinges simple. I have the leading edge of the controlsurface rounded wich in turn mates with a cuped trailing edge flying surface. For hinges I am using Robarts. This style of hinges is keeping it simple, fast built, low weight, and a more scalish look to it compared to reg rc pointed hingelines.

For the moment I am researching different covering alternatives to Ultracote. I guess I have been somewhat triggered by your ideas on this plane. A scalish aerobat is just very cool. After all this is not a 3D plane. I guess I am hoping to find a middle way of performance and some scale to it.

As meantioned erlier on this thread I am def putting on side stringers, anything else will not do for me when it comes to an extra. Now you did meantion something about cloth covering and this is exactly what I am researching about, or more specifically what weight penalty it imposes compared to reg film covering.

I guess my dream cenario would be following your ideas of part fiber glased and aft fuz doped cloth (Sig Koverall) but at the same weight as film covering. Some guys here on RCU is claiming that a glassed surface could actually be lighter weight than that of film. Further, some other are claiming that a doped and painted cloth covering is not too much more weight compared to Ultracote... Then again there are those that are saying that this is not true... ???

Basically I am torn on what covering to use. I am ready to sacrifise some ounces for a durable good looking finish, some ounces but not a whole pound.

I have said it before but i say it again. Your hingeline is a piece of art. I love it.

Yo Rate1...I agree...nothing wrong with the 'NG's (with which I was more closely associated with...but not as much as 777 and 757 (and later -300)...wonder whats coming next after 737s ...Boeing appears non-committal at the moment.

Nothing wrong with Robart Hinges either but I wanted to be able to remove my elevators, ailerons etc for later maintenance if necessary but Robart hinge "pockets" were too big for the elevators (would be ok for ailerons though).

My plan is to use "Solartex" for the covering the fuselage stringered areas......it paints up well with the likes of klasskote, etc ..no primer needed if you start with white.

I'm just screwing together a Flair "Christen Eagle" at the moment since I recently "Rattled" my Graupner E300S on terra firma while I was practising Limbo ...methinks I'll put my YS 140 in the eagle to break it in ready for my Lanier 300S!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are right about the Boeing is keeping it shut, but then so is Airbus. There is even a poll guessing game on Flight International on wich aircraft mfg that will be first out with a new singel aile plane. I am guessing, or perhaps hoping, boeing as the NG is did take a lot from the classic.

I did aquire the Robart hing sockets for exactly that purpose. However I have yet to decide if to use them or not? Yes they are fat but offers a great feature to a finished plane.

My hingeline looks much like yours but with straight Robart hinges (and not even close to your perfection) I used TLAREB-system (that looks about right eye ball) to make them.

How is the durability and finish of Solartex compared to Koverall? As I understan Koverall need dope before painting...?

To be more specific i am contemplating btw Ultracote (light weight, easy, and cheap) and to sheet the fwrd fuz to fiberglass it and then cloth covering the aft fuz. If I go ahead with the second and more dear and difficult alternative I will then also glass the wings. However I need qualifyied weight estimate (penalty weight figure) for this before daring to attemt such a stunt.

Superworm,

Sorry to hear about your Graupner but then again you got a new plane after this... A Christen Eagel with a YS 140 does not sound too shabby.

Hi Rate1

My Goldberg Ultimate (YS120) is covered in Solartex and sprayed with Hobbypoxy (No longer available) . There is a slight weight penalty because the whole insides has adhesive coating - probably no worse than coverall tho'. There is another brand (Ceconite lightweight) which is similar to Coverall (plus dope) but I'm not sure of any European sourcing - try the www ?. Solartex is pretty tough stuff but will not accept a steel tent peg dropped from a height of more that 1/2 metre (and I know this to be true)! I shall use this on mine as I've never had a problem with lifting or bubbling - and its now 15 yrs old!.

Well that Ultimate is a beuty. Do you have the weight of this plane?

I found this diagram of weights for different coverings:
http://www.homefly.com/reference/Cov...%20Product.htm

Basically it states that Solartex has a weight of 90grams/sq meter.
While Koverall has a weight of 46grams/sq meter.

As a comperison Monocote is 71.5grams/sq meter (average).
Ultracote is 79grams/sq meter (average).

As I understand the big different comes from that Solartex has glue applied to it compared to Koverall. Allthogh finer weave and taking less paint, but still twice the weight!!! What about using silk, could that be an alternative, or a combination of silk (over sheeted areas if not fiberglassed) and Koverall/Solartex over the fuz?

I am making slow progress... Anyways, the latest in my build is going for cuped hingelines. I have enlarged the ailerons by approx 20% by extending them towards the wingroot. Enlarged the rudder by approx 40%, enlarged the elev by approx 30%. The rudder and elev is made from build up wood (=same weight as the smaller sized stock balsa sheeted foam core).

Obviously this is not a 3D plane considering its older design, its wingloading (fairly small wingarea) and the smaller sized controlsurfaces. Nor am I trying to make it a 3D plane. My ambition is to have a well flying plane, basically a good aerobat (built straight and with a low weight). However, I want bigger controlsurfaces in order to be able to hover.

Yo Rate1
re :"As I understand the big different comes from that Solartex has glue applied to it compared to Koverall. Allthogh finer weave and taking less paint, but still twice the weight!!! What about using silk, could that be an alternative, or a combination of silk (over sheeted areas if not fiberglassed) and Koverall/Solartex over the fuz? "

I would suggest that the weights quoted for koverall are as it comes out of the packet rather than finished...you still need to stick it to the framework and then "seal with 1-2 coates of nitrate dope" (see http://www.sigmfg.com/IndexText/SIGKV001.html ). Methinks this would then get you to the state that Solartex comes to you except for the overqall glue coverage. This comment does need checking out though 'cos I've never used koverall in anger. This website makes reference to silk covering.....nothing further that I can add except for my limited experience of the stuff which seemed to promote the "starved horse" look on covered open bay structures.

Tails look good btw

Cheers

Superworm,

hahaha....a starved horse. Well I dont need that.

Looking at the plane I realize that there is not too much area left that needs to be covered with fabric.
This as the cowl and front hatch is made out of fiberglass. Further the airfoils are sheeted where I am contemplating to fiberglass. Will see on the fiberglass issue...if I manage to fiberglass a test item well I might go ahead...if not back to brainstorming.
Therefor coming to the conclusion that covering what is left to be cover on the plane, after fiberglass, will be less than a squere meter and not matter any from a weight perspective on a plane that hopefully will be around 11 lbs.

Hmm, I have heard about people fiberglassing with acrylic instead of epoxy. Claiming half the weight and 60% strenght compared to regular fiberglassing techniques. This might be the way to go? I need to learn more about this method before deciding.

Regardless, after finishing all the hingelines I will try to replace the turtledeck with a wood built up. Lets see how that goes...

Hi Rate1
re:
"Hmm, I have heard about people fiberglassing with acrylic instead of epoxy. Claiming half the weight and 60% strenght compared to regular fiberglassing techniques. This might be the way to go? I need to learn more about this method before deciding."

I normally use "Z-poxy finishing resin" thinned about 20% with methylated spirits (denatured alcohol). Quite a few of my buddies have started to use "Ronseal Diamond Hard Floor finsh" (Satin varnish) instead and are having great results http://www.ronseal.co.uk/products/product.jsp?id=37 . This is, as you say, much lighter than F/G resin and also dries in a couple of hours for a recoat. I normally have to leave resin for 24 hrs. I'm not quite sure if the Ronseal is Acrylic (I believe it is) or PolyUrethane....uses water for clean-up. Whatever, it takes primer (to complete filling the weave) and top coat with no probs. As before though, run a couple of tests to check it out...checkout also KlassKote for finishing http://www.klasskote.com/ ...although the "Flair Spectrum " aerosols give a good finish http://www.flairmodels.co.uk/Finishing/Paintframes.htm


Cheers

Thanks for the info and the links. As soon as I have completed filling out my order for a OS200 I'll dig into it...

Yup I ended up with the OS200Fs with a Hyde soft mount for this plane.

Allthough tempted to try out and see what all this YS hype is all about, I opt to go for ol trusty OS as I have great experience with em. Also I am somewhat limited to 15% fuel (unless I want to mix the brew myself....NOT). Also the idea of getting down to the field and just be able to start the engine right up without the DZ an...al tinckering that I know nothing about makes me belive this engine is the right choise for me.

The Extra 300 is a funny plane. Meaning that it has been around long enough for several alterations and versions been implemented to it.
Looking at the following pictures you can see that the smaller rudder on the first picture is the one designed into this kit. While the larger rudder that I want on my plane is showing on next 4 pictures. The last pic show a blow-up of the rudder btw Klaus Schrodt Yellow Extra and Frank Versteegh Red Extra. Aso note on the blow-up pic that you can see a differences on the elevators.

Yup !!! I see what you mean !!. I hadn't noticed this before ...you can see the elevator aerodynamic balance on Klaus's Extra also

Hello all,

I too have a 1/4 scale lanier extra 300s kit that i purchased 4-5 years ago and just decided to start building a week ago.
I did a search for some tips and this site came up so I have read through your posts and have learned alot. It is my plan to follow the instructions as close as possible since this is my first build. I have a LT-40 arf with a LA40 engine that I fly now. I have the wings on the extra skinned but a guy that runs the local hobby store(30 miles away!) suggested I use 3m Super 77 to glue them on. I don't know if anybody else has gone this route but it seems to be holding...for now.

I was also wondering about taking the plasic parts and using them for a mold of sorts. If I spray the plastic with say non-stick cooking spray(such as PAM) and then fill them with expanding spray foam (like the stuff used to seal holes around your house) and remove it from the plastic after it dries if this will work. The foam is light weight (not as dense a the foam core wings) and advertises that it is paintable.

Hiya CJRacer,

I think I will use balsa sheeting for the turtledeck. Easy light weight and no fuss... Another alternative if wanting to have foam is to cut a pice of foam with a foam cutter, hot wire. I think the hot wire is the best opt if you want a turtle deck made out of foam. Just my idea...

For now I am experimenting with fiberglassing (for the very first time) and are trying to learn and see what weight that is expected with this material. After my experimenting is done I will decide on what material to cover this plane with. Allthough I still have quite some build to do before reaching that part of this construction.

In my mind this kit is sold in a very raw state...meaning Lanier have left all to the builder. In my mind this is good as one can change this kit into anything one wishes for.

CJRacer, what outline do you have for your kit, eg. engine covering ect...

I'm not sure what engine I'll use I guess it depends on the final weight. As far as covering the only thing I've had any experience with is monocoat or ultracoat. I want something that looks nice, flies well, and is fairly easy to finish. I have a little experience with painting but it is more on the automotive side. I do like the Robart hinges as long as they will hold up ok. As far as servos I will probably decide that a little later when I am closer to preparing the mounts. I don't plan on doing a whole lot of high stress manuvers(not on purpose anyway) so I don't know what servos I should really use where. I think my plane will probably be very heavy when it is finished.

CJRacer,
The kit manual call for std servos, or if opt for a larger engine to use 70 oz servos, I think 70 oz servos is a good recomendation. Dont know if you have read other entries of this plane but one is claiming Saito 150 for a perfect match. Well I guess it is all down to flying weight and personal preferance.



Myself had a look at the root wing ribs and though them to be a bit on the robust side, so I slughtered them a tad... (I hope I didn't take off too much ...d*m dremel).

Initial weight; 45 grams= 1,59 oz
Final weight; 20 grams= 0,71 oz
---------------------
Saved weight 25 grams= 0,88 oz (or 55%)

Been fideling with the cowl trying to get it decent straight. Hyde mount is in place. Muffler of the OS200 is BIG and forced me to cut up the cowl, but I kind of like having the muffler sticking out this way... I guess I need to open up the cowl some more on the bottomside for cooling.

Rate1,

Muffler looks pretty sharp. I like the way it kind of blends with the cowling and where the outlet is.

You'll definitely have to open it up some. I forget the ratio of intake area to outlet area. Somewhere between 1.5 and 2 outlet to 1 inlet I think. You might be able to get by with somewhat less where you are.

I've been covering a smaller project in Polycover, and it is what you would expect for something that is lighter. It is the thinnest of the coverings I've used, and seems to have the least adhesive. It works around corners well, and shrinks well (even at the lower heats). I'll be interested in how it holds up at the field. The other low temperature covering I've worked with seem to unshrink on a hot day. By the time I get it back in the air, I think we'll be all out of hot days for the year.

PizzaMan, is the Polycover transparent film covering or does it look like reg solid colour covering?

Yes you are right about the ratio of inlet vs outlet. I have even heard of a 1:2,5 ratio. No matter, I will open it up for a good cooling.

Rate1,

I've been using the solid colors. There are even lighter transparent colors too. I just don't like the look of the transparent colors from any manufacturer. If you're interested, I'll PM you with my experiences with some of the coverings (Monokote, Ultracote, Solartex, and Polycover).

Dan

PizzaMan, yes please...

Hi Rate1 - Engine installation looks good - my - that is a big engine!!!!!

However, I don't see any triangular stock on the inside corners of the engine box - I also recommend drilling 3mm ish holes in the engine box sides into the firewall bulkhead so that you can glue in dowel pegs to strengthen the firewall connection to the sides....methinks that is a "stump-puller of an engine you have there !!

Cheers

Superworm,

Yes, the instructions call for dowels to be drilled into the firewall, but the dowel is only some very thin made of somekind of hardwood. Also, the instruction is recomending 3 dowels at each side of the engine box. This pretty much translate exactly to your recomendation. I will also attach some triangular stock to the corners. Thanks for the advice mate. Considering this is only my second kit ever I do need all the help I can get.

I keep progressing with little bits and pieces on this plane whenever I get some spare time. However, I need to get my filthy hands on an incident meter so I can go ahead attaching the stab inorder to move on building the balsa turtledeck...