I have to agree with the "My plane looks like all the other planes at the field" argument. I have both ARF's and kit built planes and when flying at the dirt lot where my father and I fly, I generally bring an ARF.
At Sepulveda Basin, however, I bring something kit built.
Paid off with a couple of free kits one day since I was the only one flying a kit plane as opposed to the 4 Right Flyer 40's, 2 WM T-34's, 3 US 60's, etc.
I was refueling my Tower Hobbies Kaos at the time. I miss that plane.
Dude was walking the flight line, stopped at my pit and offered me a partially built Super Sportster 20 and a virgin Flash somethingorother glider kit.

Building my second Tower Kaos right now. Have a mostly built Morris Hobbies Penknife on the side but the engine got backordered.
I think kits are making a comeback.
My BTE Venture should arrive sometime this week...

kits are definatly coming back i have seen some badly made arf's from china i think people would rather make the plane them self and have a higher standard of finish i use the term not another crappy chinese arf

Thanks for all the great post so far. I think the majority here seem to think that kits are making some sort of comeback, or will make some sort of comeback in the near future. I do wonder what kind of response would be given to this post if it was posted in the ARF forum? I think the majority there would say that kits are dead, but I think that would be because the majority havn't yet been bitten by the building bug. It would be like asking a drunk if he thinks that closing the Town Tavern would be a good idea! I do believe that given time, more and more ARF flyers that stay with the hobby will try there hand at building a few Planes to add to there ARF collection.

Some of it is I want it now, some of it is I don't have time and some of it is I just crashed and need a plane quick. Arf's make it quicker to get started in the hobby. Its possible to get a few planes in the air in one season. I have some ARF's and like them very much. I prefer uncommon aircraft so most of what I build is off plans. I do want to try the Ikon'nwst Ryan PT-22 after I build a Platt Zero. I hope ARF's make it easier for people to get started and once they are involved with the hobby the urge for something different occurs and they start building. I think building has probably gone down somewhat but there are many more people in the hobby these days. Now that I have 5 planes I plan to build one a year and have a list to last the rest of my life. It seams there are quite a few very good builders around still. I hope I become one.

Carl

In what way is this a problem?

Actually, it can be quite nice. There's quite a bit to be said for structured building where people do the same task over and over. They get good at it and can do it much quicker than the person who builds a new kit every time. How good depends on the time tha manufacturer lets them take, the amount of training they get, and the materials they get to use. They also invest the time to make jigs for building and patterns for things like covering so complex designs are much easier than they would be for the individual builder.

For some people, building and covering are things they will just never excell at. ARFs make it possible for them to have a "nice" plane, that they can be proud of, at the field.

If you are single[8D] it is no problem at all! If you are married[>:] then it is a very big problem! LOL

Ray- I'm sorry to say, but I don't believe that kits are making a come back. Most of the time I'm the only one flying "kit" planes at our field. I'm sure it's the same most places. I do my best to encourage newcomers to give building a try, but it's an up hill battle.


I hear " it's cheaper to buy an arf" all the time. People are missing the point ! It's "cheaper" to not fly at all ! Isn't the whole reason we do this for enjoyment ?


When I look at an arf in the box, I think "gee someone else had all the fun" so in a sense I didn't save money, I got cheated I get no satisfaction what so ever assembling an arf, in fact it's more like work.


The fun of going to the field on Sat. mourning and checking out folks creations has been replaced rows of clones. Gosh look at that ! another Avistar[:'(] I know I know, the Avistar is a good plane to learn with, but does everyone have to have one. What really amuses me is contests for best looking plane ( all arfs of course) do they send the guy in China the blue ribbon ?


As others have said, I think alot of it is just that instant gratification thing. I'm sure that "herd" mentality plays a part too. The "bean" counters that run todays major model companies have replaced the the folks that truely enjoyed the hobby. Sig has done a pretty good job maintaining their kit line. Great Planes/Tower-Hobbico and whatever else has shelved many.


Maybe this trend will turn around as people get bored with one cookie cutter arf after another. Maybe people will support people in this country, instead of the one that does not hold our best interests at heart. Maybe ma & pa stores will replace big box stores. Maybe kids will deliver newspapers again. Maybe people will support good companies, not just ones that save them the almighty buck. Maybe pigs will fly.



As the man said "The times, they are a changin."

Steve

When I started, I built my first 12 airplanes and got great satisfaction from the good ones and not so much from the ones I built a little crooked. The "good" ARFs of today have made me appreciate good, straight and light construction techniques that make them fly great. What I miss is the feeling I got as I saw the aircraft taking shape and ultimately flying. ARFs are here to stay but I will always have one on the building board just so I can say, "I built that"

When I was picking up building supplies at the not-so-LHS, the kid behind the counter asked me to please not visit the local flying field. "Great - a guy who builds airplanes and isn't on Medicare. The old people at the flying field will LOVE you and I'll have to listen to their crap."

And if you go to a WallyWorld, you will notice that the plastic model section is getting smaller and smaller. WallyWorld is one small segment, and they don't sell r/c, but they know what sells down to three decimal places.

Ah, started BUILDING a TF ArrowII this past week.....the smell of balsa dust, eye cringing CA fumes, dusty head of hair....beautiful! Long live KITS!!!!!

Jerry

Yes, the reason we do this is for enjoyment. I'm not trying to flame you, but perhaps they get your "point", but maybe you don't get theirs. Many people don't enjoy building. For them it's work, and after all that work they know that in the end their plane may not look so nice. If someone at the field was constantly going on about how much better kits are than ARFs, how I'm part of the "instant gratification" era because I fly ARFs, etc., I would consider them a bit boorish. Fortunately, around here most people respect the choices other people make, at least WRT airplanes.

There are many aspects of the hobby. Many people choose to not partake of the building aspect. In the end, all that matters is that each of us has fun in his/her own way.

My feelings as well Chuck! I "FLY" for the enjoyment...yes, I am also building kits, but my primary enjoyment is flying not building. I fly ARF's because I get in the air faster...and yep, some of the ARF's are pretty good looking airplanes. Like my original post indicated, I am trying the building side of the hobby and may, I say "may" continue after my next plane is completed, but I am the first to admit that I have a list of planes (ARF's) that I like the looks of and would like to fly. I used to like playing golf as well, but I didn't build my own clubs either. Some golfers do...it's just a matter of choice and what you find as fun...after all, isn't that what we are all trying to get out of this hobby? If not, then it isn't much of a "hobby" then.

Chuck- My point with the "cheaper" thing was not to belittle folks who like arfs, it was not every decision should be be based on cost. I fully respect someone who chooses not to build because they simply don't like it. I think if you took a poll, you would find most afers haven't attemted to build anything. Some of us just think they might be missing out on something. I don't talk or look down at anyone at the field for their choices. I do spend time with newcomers explaining some of the aspects of kit building if they're interested. Mine is a selfish goal. More folks building= More kit choices for me

Have Fun
Steve

Let me see if I can put my opening question in better context. I really don't want this to become a "which is better thread"! I have no trouble with people who prefer ARF's to Kits, or Kits to ARF's. What I was really wanting to know is if people have noticed that there are some people who had only flown ARF's, but are now showing up at the field with kits, or now talking about what Kit they are going to buy next instead of which ARF?

My main concern a few months back was that kits would be eventually phased out among Major Manufacturers. Kits have been slowly declining, and it seems that you see fewer and fewer on the shelfs. The ARF is indeed the cause of this, but Manufacturers are only giving people what they want. So I can see how this issue always becomes a heated debate among ARF Flyers, and Kit Flyers. Kit Flyers feel like ARF Flyers are destroying there part of the Hobby. The problem is that I can't find anyone to blame for this. Like I said, the Manufactures are just producing what people are demanding.

Now with all that said, I have been a little more optimistic that the strictly ARF Flyers seem to be taking a bit more interest in building. I am not stating this because I am wishfully hoping, but I have just come to this conclusion from talking, and noticing what is going on around me. From what I have seen and heard, it does appear that where only a few months ago I thought Kit Building was going to die, to now thinking that there still might be a chance from what I am noticing. This is not something that is going to transpire overnight. This is something that will be noticed when more demand for kits puts pressure on Manufactures to put out a few more, and LHShops start making space on the shelf again due to customer demand. If you want to give your own experience with ARFS or KITS, I think that is great, but please try not to speak in general terms like "ARF's are Junk and everyone knows it", or "Nobody like to take time to build them stupid Kits!" That kind of conversation will only lead to heated arguments, and I would prefer to here your own personal experiences, and observations. Thanks for all the great input so far!

There is nothing wrong with trying to preserve what you love doing. I love ARF's and Building Kits. I selfishly would like to see equal space on the store shelves for both.

Whoever thought that they would see people walking around in bell bottoms again? Why do people take perfectly new furniture, and scratch it up to make it look like old stuff that we threw in the garbage when I was a kid? Have you noticed that people are buying new cars that look like the old cars? The New Mustang, PT Cruiser, Beetle, and many others! Its all about nostalgia! When something new comes out, people will flock to it in droves, but given time people always yern for things to look and feel like they did in the past, or what they remeber as being great as a kid. I just sold a 25 year old Frogger Video game on ebay for $35. Why in the heck would someone want that when there are all kinds of high tech video games out now? Nostalgia is why! Since many years have passed, I bet Ford could even sell some Edsils now! LOL

Maybe not Edsels, but the 2005 Mustang is a beauty to behold..., finally back to the roots of 65

True, not every decision should be, and probably isn't. It certainly isn't for me, I've got all the building tools I need (nobody tell my wife I said such a thing). There's at least 10 rolls of covering in the cabinet. I've got several work benches. Even with all that, the majority of planes I've put in the air recently were ARFs. There's some nice ARFs out there and I just don't have the desire to build a similar plane from a kit.
Well, let's find out. I just created a poll in the ARF forum. Let's see if we can get those ARFers thinking about adding some kits to their hangars. The poll is here: http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=2793309

I cast my vote Chuck! Great idea on the Poll. Exactly the kind of info I was curious about, and you covered the possible choices well! Thanks!

I fly out of three different clubs and I have seen the building part of the hobby come to an almost complete hault. Even some of the better builders I know have gone to the ARF. Each person has there own reasons and all of them seem to be good ones, money and time seem to be the biggest two reasons. One of the guys decided to give 3-D flying A try and tended to loose A lot of planes, it was cheaper to loose an Arf and A lot less weeping involved.
Any more I do more plans building then kits just because I like planes I don't ever see at any of the clubs I fly at.
That being said, I just came in from my shop after putting on the finishing touches to my new second hand 1/4 scale ARF Extra, I just couldn't pass up the deal.
The ARF V kits doesn't bother me at all, what really gets to me is seeing all the guys at the field buying there ARFs and then paying other people put them together and setting them up for them. Then taking them up to trim them before handing them over to them. This is just way too lazy. JMO

I must agree!

My Dad and I have a couple of arfs that we have put together and flown. However, one of the reasons that we have stayed into the building process is we took an arf to the field, and on a landing (a beautiful landing straight down the runway) the aircraft touched down and the landing gears fell out of the plane. It turns out that there was hardly any glue on the joint were the landing gear bolt plate was. So we came home, used epoxy and triangle stock to glue it back in. We flew it some more, and it hasn't happened since. So we are building more kits than anything else. Greg

25 planes is a good thing lol

Building will never die completely. Some are in this to fly and some are in it to build (I know a few people that only build but will not fly) and there are a few that are both.

There is just something satisfying about using that new bench you built, or new band saw, or bench sander, or dust collection system etc etc etc to create a bird that is unique to you. Its not just the finished product but how you got there (for me anyway).

There are some pretty good quality ARF's out now compared to a while back and I have had a couple but I will definitely continue to build.

tks1

Believe that its a time management and easy money in the pocket situation. the computor evolution has changed the way of life for everyone to some degree. to many the razor blade is for shaving the beard or legs- Not Balsa. there a lot of fellows who have bought, flown ARF's that have become builders. they also have found the pleasure of the razor blade and C/A. SO DON'T be afraid to help them. I know that Not everyone can be a scratch designer/builder. kits will be around a long time, as long as we ask for them. dick