Makes it easier for the wife to count.

Just had an 1/8th Air Force Fly-In last weekend.....builders....all of 'em! And some beautiful work to boot.

Jerry

20 years ago if you flew, you built planes or bought a kit plane already built. 20 years ago we had 60 members in our club. Now we have 150 members and only 4 or 5 build kit planes. All the rest are ARF"s..I think the kit business but with the exception of just a few is about dead. If you progress through this hobby and develope flying skills with arfs, you will probably be at the mercy of a "builder" if you wish to have a good selection of top end planes. Most of the good flyers cant build because of this. Some of our best pilots have learned and moved up with ARF's but sooner or later they will want a Carden. When that happens give a builder a call...This with $1.80 will get you a medium StarBucks coffee..

I have been out of the hobby for about 5 years and just recently returned to the hobby, I bought a 1/4 scale C/W Cub kit off of e-bay(see my thread). I went to the hobby shop the other day to pick up some supplies and I was disapointed to see that they no longer carry kits but had dozens of ARF's. To each his own but I personally will never own an ARF, I enjoy building as much if not more than flying. I guess I will just have to order all my kits from Tower[] I used to like to buy from the local hobby shops to help keep them in business, the guy told me that they can hardly give kits away anymore
Later!!
Anthony

With all the CAD design possibilities and laser cut wood, there could be some great kits. There should be brilliantly designed scale kits that a blind man with one arm could build.

A freind of mine writes novels. He started with the "print on demand " type publisher. You know, no warehouse full of books, just a program that spits out one book everytime someone orders it. Well, maybe it is time that somebody approached the kit business that way. You call up and order a Globe Swift, 60 size. He punches in some code and bingo, plans , instructions and cut wood for a one-off kit are produced. We are on the threshold of such technology, or maybe a little past it. So what has the 21st century ushered in ? Folks duct taping engines to sign board ! IT is like some post apocalyptic market place, exept for the ARF's. What is......is so far from what could be. So I buy scale kits on Ebay, the new Tower Hobbies of the 21 century. I have about 20 so far. The market place can do what it will, I have prepared. But seriously, does anybody know where I can get a 60 size Globe Swift ?????
Is Rich Urivich's Cessna 195 in kit form ? (hint, hint if your out there)

Maybe I'm looking at this whole arf thing in the wrong light. I now have a new hobby, the challenge of hunting down old kits and cottage kit producers on the net. Who'd ever thought a 30.00 Balsa Usa Smoothie would fetch a hundred bucks ! And while am at it, why in the world did they drop the smoothie and keep producing that stik thing !?

Well I am not sure if the kits are making a comeback, but folks are sure buying them up in a hurry, and paying ridiculous prices for them. I have watched guys pay upwards of $75 to $100 for a Goldberg Jr. Falcon[X(] I try to go to swap meets and auctions so that I can find the older kits "that Nobody seems to want anymore", but they are becoming harder and harder to find. Royal kits are going easily for more than $250.00. There is a Beechcraft Staggerwing from Royal on E-bay right now that has a top bid of more than $350.00!!!! For crying out loud, its just a box of balsa wood and some plans. For that kinda money you could buy a Lincoln Continental Band Saw and cut your own parts.
I think a guy with a decent laser cutter willing to cut kits from plans from the 70's and 80's at a fair price ($80.00 to $120.00 depending on size and wood involved) could make a very good living at it. Guys like me don't care if its not in the original box, I want to build and Fly the plane. Not have it sit in the corner as an investment for my retirement.

The last time I checked there was a Top Flite Taurus bid up to 299.00. I'm not sure if the kits that good or as I suspect, just hard to come by. I agree there seems to be a need for some of these older designs. I don't know if some of the majors are out of touch, or some legality is involved.

Actually I think it a bit of both.
I buy the older designs because I like the way they fly, and I like the building part of the hobby. Most of the folks I see buying up the older kits aren't buying them to build, but to put them on E-Bay. If a good laser cutter went to work, it would stop that because the guys who actually want to build the airplane would walk away from those insane prices and just order the kit, cut to order. I don't mind paying a fair price for an old out of production kit that is NIB, but $300 or more is nutz!

I think it is funny when you see guys on e-bay paying more for something than you can buy it for from Tower!!

I count on them when I am selling one of my old kits.

Yup, it's great isn't it. Happens quite often.

I bought a kit last fall from a far away hobby shop. It's an out of production one that they happened to have. Cost me $150 shipped. The same kit had sold on e-bay a few weeks earlier for over $210. I still haven't built it. Every now and then I wonder if I should just list it for sale.

I have gotten back into the hobby after about 9 years and was suprised at how arfs had become so big adeal. I have always built my planes from kits, and my first plane(my girl friend bought me) getting back into the hobby was a kit. being an artist(bronze sculpture) I take great pride in creating something out of nothing. I also like to be in control of the manufacturing process to my standards. I will probably buy an arf at some point just to have a "quick" flyer, but in general enjoy the building process. right now I am building a Ziroli Dauntless Dive Bomber and am excited to see it fly. some of the problems I see with arfs besides poor glueing is that if its something you built you tend to be more protective of your plane (i.e. is it balance properly, glued properly, thrust line? etc.)but if its out of the box some people assume all is done for them already and if it crashes ... OH well throw it in the trash and get another one. the other problem is that some new R/C members who have yet to fly show up at the field and dont want, or ask for help with ther new purchase and waste ther money (crash) or hurt themselves or someone else. when I am at the local public field and people find out I built my planes thier eyes glaze over and they mumble about it being to hard! Not at all... it just requires patience. something the world seems to be lacking. on the same note though I visited a local private club whose members are about 90% builders( I am joining next month) they take pride in thier creations and are protective of thier "babies" . well thats about a nickels worth of soap box time so I will hop off.

If it isn't, it should. I'm partial to building. I know every joint. And it does keep down the number of planes in the house. My fleet totals three and can be viewed in my gallery.

88

Kraus

ARF's are OK. They do get flyers. Come to think of it my F-150 is kind of ARFish.

And my house...and my Television...etc.

ARF's-----------gooooood!

Kraus

So does poor flying, unless you save the pieces thinking some day you'll rebuild that pile of sticks and covering.

I checked out your Pics! Great looking Planes there. Someone who takes the time to build stuff like that just impresses the hell out of me more than anything! During a Fly In those are the Planes I head straight to so I can see how they was built, and learn from other peoples techniques.

in my oppinion im compleatly for the end of ARF and RTF planes. To me they teach you nothing except to fly... but every one eventualy crashes unless your just THAT lucky... however if you have spent all your rc time flying arf's then you have no idea how to repair it since youve never built a plane. also you have the problem of building. its much nicer to know exactly how the plane was built, it lets you feel better about pulling that high G turn. personaly (since i do have one ARF... dont know why i think it was a gift) i wouldent trust it to survive a high G turn w/o the wings snapping at W2 (as i personaly glued W1 together i know that joint is good) ARF's are just too flimsy. some one else also made a good point, its really boring to go to the feild and see lines of the EXACT same airplane. and you get MUCH more satisfaction out of somthig that you yourself built. just my oppinion ofcourse... but i wish for the end of the ARF phase.even people who claim they have no time to build... 30 min a day u could have a descent plane built in 2 weeks beleive me... ive done it.

Thats a mighty strong opinion, but you are welcome to have it. In my not-so-strong opinion this would do nothing but drive people away from the hobby who would not build a Plane if that was the only option there was. They would just find another hobby, and to me that would mean me losing alot of good flying buddies at the field. I would really like to see more interest in kit building for my own selfish reasons, but you sure can't force someone to take interest by robbing them of what they love and prefer! All ARF's are not Flimsy Junk in my opinion either. I own a VectorFlight Edge 540 ARF that was built much nicer and to a higher standard than anything I have ever built. I really love to build, and I feel I do a pretty good job, but to say that I could do it better than any ARF Manufacturer out there would be a pretty far stretch! The ARF's are here to stay! My only hope is that more people would take interest in building kits so that aspect of the hobby does not dissapear, or become extremely limited in variety! Just my .03 cents worth................

I m a relatively new flyer with only a short 2+ year experience, and age in the forties. I learned flying with an ARF trainer, and have since put together 6 ARF, ranging from sports, pattern ships and a war bird. My latest on-going project is a low wing kit from MK.

My personal experience so far ...
1) Had I started off with a kit, I would have been too eager to get it completed to fly, and would have made a lot of beginner's mistakes such as not taking the time on alignment of the wing, stab, and vert fin, or even ending up with a warped wing.
2) Even when building ARF, I did learn the importance and the effective ways of aligning the wing, stab and vert fin, right from my very first ARF, all thanks to the coaching from my club members.
3) With ARF, I learned how to fly, and in the process, realized and internalized the major contributing factors such as the above, and plus more.
4) With ARF, AND coaching from my club members, I managed to learn to fly reasonably straight and level, less elliptically loops most of the time , and in a more controlled manner and constant speed throughout many of the basic and intermediate precision maneuvers.
5) For points 2, 3 and 4 above, I observed the same for a buddy who started flying around the same time as I.
6) Have I had bad crashes before? Yes, and all due to my own errors, no fault of the planes. I had to scrap 3 ships, but all other ships that had bad damages - wing tip to tip somersault on cross wind landing, 85 degree vertical dive into ground due to receiver failure - had been repaired successfully. All are tracking well and one is doing high G turns (e.g. A 46 size Dago Red with a YS91 ). I think reinforcements at the right places and the patient repair jobs had been key to these successes.
7) As I build the kit now, every so often, I count the blessing of having planes to fly (ARF ones), and enjoying the satisfaction of seeing the parts being formed at the same time - for I cannot stop myself from imagining that if this were to be my 1st plane, I would have been spending time thinking about how many more days to completion, instead spending those time on thinking how best I can fit the parts in and get them properly aligned.
8) Am I learning things from building kits that I could never have learned from putting ARF together? A resounding yes.
9) Would this knowledge help me in repair jobs in the future (ARF or not)? I am certain that it will be. As for now, I have already learn which joints need to have epoxy, and which joints need only to have CA.
10) If I were to start all over again, which path would I choose? I would still choose to start with ARF to learn to appreciate flying, and then go for kit building.
11) Why would I make such a choice? Because that is me, and that is my learning style, and I wanted to learn flying first, and then move on to building as I enjoy the flying. To me, this is best of both worlds.
12) Did ARF make my entry into this hobby easier? A resounding yes.
13) Does going ARF mean less personalization? Well, IMHO, this is quite debatable. What if everyone buys and builds the same few kits? What if I tear off the stock ARF covering, and put on my own color scheme? Of course I have to balance between time to build a kit vs the additional $ to be invested on a set covering job on top of the $ spent on the original ARF.
14) Is building making a come back? I m not sure. At this time, I am very much inclined to build, that make me a +1 in kit. Bu then again, I m not ruling ARF as my next purchase.


IMHO, I believe each type of build has its place in this hobby. I think different facets of the hobby gives a different set of satisfaction, hassles and pains. Combining this with the various stages of ones life and personality, the hobby gives different answer to different people at different time - it all depends on what does one wants out of this fascinating hobby.

For me, my learning so far is that the common denominators, regardless building or ARF: -
a) coaching, suggestions and advice from good meaning club members had been an invaluable resource.
b) coaching, suggestions and advice from good meaning flyers (e.g. you) had been an invaluable resource.
c) non-warped wings, stab and vert fins must be sufficiently aligned
d) enjoy --- this is a hobby.


And yes, I'd love to see both ARF and kits being kept alive and kicking - more choices for everyone means more people coming into this hobby, means more attractive market, means more innovations and better prices, means more choices ..... [sm=thumbup.gif],

Good building and flying to all!

gc

Try this on for size:

http://www.clstunt.com/htdocs/dcforu...ID1/12476.html

I've tried ARFs and RTFs on and off since I got a Wen-Mac Aeromite back about 1950. Wore out the pull starter and had fatigue cracks on the plastic parts before I got the first engine start. Continued the ARF disappointment with some 1940s era wire framed silk covered rubber band ARFs that didn't fly decent no matter what you did. (Am I saying ARFs are nothing new?) Did better with a Cox TD-1, formed aluminum wing, plastic body, Space bug 049. Over the years I've had mixed luck with ARFs, The old Jim Walker ARFs, like the Hornet rubber powered, the 74 glider, and others locked in the addiction my father started in 1948 for building and flying. Over the years, I've even had good luck with the frequently maligned Cox Plastic ARFs. I even am sometimes tempted to get one of the overseas produced P-30 or Coupe de Hiver contest type rubber powered models. Hi tech, mostly composite costruction, complex timer set-ups that adjust for hard javelin type hand launches with the prop locked so you don't waste winds, timed trim changes for stab incidence for power burst, cruise power, glide, and sometimes even diferential incidence between the two wing panels. And of course, for free flight, a dethermalizer. RC isn't the only high tech portion of model aviation, nor is it the only component with ARFs or RTFs
.
Our club usually has 130 members a year. About a 10-15% turnover. ARFs seem to be the main entry trainer, but of the relatively small percentage that stay with it for more than a couple years, nearly all seem to eventually turn to kits.

Out of the 89 flyables I have right now, maybe 6 are ARFs or RTFs. Maybe 18 are partially built kits from estate sales, garage sales, or just tired of it give-aways. Ten are scratch or plan built. The rest are kits I built myself. Also have over 120 kits and uncompleted models. Luckily I have lots of room in the garage rafters. And a patient wife.

To me, the ARF/RTF, if properly built, are a very viable part of our way of aviation life. If the plane is poorly built, it belongs in the garbage with other trash like some of the old "Slag Engines", Coherer-decoherer radios imported in the fifties, plastic props that shatter if the engine speed exceeds 5000 rpm, and other trash I've seen over the years. If somebody likes ARFs over building, hey, whatever floats your boat.

As far as being quicker to build, I needed almost 55 hours to assemble and equip a popular 40 sized Stick clone. Two weeks late I was able to build a Goldberg Electra, and have the KIT built plane covered and ready to fly in just under 40 hours. Wether you prefer the kit built or the ARF, enjoy.

As far as dealing with the critics of either, remember Corborundum non Illigitimi Est. Don't let the (Bleeps) wear you down. I just enjoy putting down put-down artists.

I don't know if there's a trend toward kits or not. More new ARFs than kits show up where I fly, but we do have several builders who bring out a new kit or plans built plane just about every year. I like kits and ARFs. From a cost standpoint, ARF seems to be the way to go if a plane is available as kit or ARF. A lot of ARFs are built, and definitely covered, better than I can do.

I had 2 ARF trainers, and currently fly a PT-60 that I built from a kit.
I have an Astro Hog that I had built; haven't flown it yet.
I'm almost finished with an Uproar 60 kit.
I have the blue foam cores to build a 2548 Scale Combat plane; it will be a P-47 Razorback.
I'm seriously looking at a few ARFs and another kit.
Great Planes Big Stik 60 ARF
Sig Four Star 60 ARF
Sportsman Aviation Waco 60 ARF
Great Planes Corsair 40 Kit

I'm all for ARF's anything that gets people flying quickly is fine by me. Afterall IMO flying is the hobby, building is secondary. I would rather spend a sunny sunday afternoon flying that breathing balsa dust.
If kits are making a comeback then it ain't happening ay my model field.

It sure would be nice if "building " was coming back but if it is ,
I'm not seeing it in my area. About 90% of the new planes that will
show up this spring at the field will be ARF's. Sad part is that most
of these guys were builders once.

The reason ? Usually , it's said that building just isn't worth the effort
and time. I guess it all depends on what you want.

It would do my heart good to see building become popular as it once was
in years past.

I can only hope
Roby