Christopher,

You know that I work a minimum of 70 hours per week, and I have never claimed to be as smart as you ar anyone else. Flaming me does not show me how much a man you are, just how big a smart ass you have become. Go look in the mirror, and then tell me that what I said about not building is true or not.

Bill, AMA 4720

Okay, Let me pose a counter question here. If no such thing as an ARF existed, what would you guys fly? I'm serious here, and I really would like to know. Please no smartass replies, just think about it. What would you fly if there were no such thing as an ARF?

Bill, AMA 4720

to answer your question stickbuilder, they would fly planes other people had built at swap meets like they did before arf's. i also want to mention there would probably be less in RC airplanes if it were not for arf's. no offense but there was a reason why arf's were created. some of its lazyness and some of its family constraints, job pressures, and frankly some people just dont have the patience to build. my dad for instance can do some nice metalworking but put him in front of a kit plane for 6 months and he would lose it. mind you my dad doesnt fly rc. i have always liked building stuff like RC cars RC planes and plastic model kits of cars and planes since i was a wee tot. i also like arf's if i cant find a plane i like of the same plane in a kit.

blw - thank you for allowing us the 'exception' for ARF trainers... we are forever grateful.

IronCross - you go ahead and "build" your ARF... I know what you meant.

Building isn't always a matter of having unlimited time, it's a matter of fitting it into the time you have available. For example, in repairing a 60 powered Super Sportster wing after a deadstick into brush that tore out the LG on one side:

Wednesday morning, brought plane wing and broken LG pieces into house, washed off oil, dirt, and grass. 12 minutes.
Wednesday night. Cleaned up the area around the broken LG block on the wing, mixed up some 15 minute epoxy, glued the block pieces into place. 15 minutes.
Thursday morning, getting ready for work. Reinstalled the LG strut, added a $kote patch to the wingtip. 15 minutes.
Thursday night. CA'd backing plates into a hole in the LE sheeting. Installed the cracked out pieces. Sanded. Glued on a 1/64" plywood piece over the cracked area with Sigbond. Stretched on some rubber bands to clamp it to the LE curve. 32 minutes
This morning, getting ready for work. Feathered the plywood patch with a sanding block, cleaned up the dust, sealed on the $kote covering patch. 18 minutes. Plane is again flyable.

Working like this, I once built a Goldberg Electra glider to ready to fly in less than two weeks. That was also about the same time involvement I had into getting a GP .40 size ARF Stick ready for flight.

For most of the last 42 years, a 40 hour week on my time card usually meant I was on vacation, or earlier this year, on medical leave. One way or another, I always found some time to build. I have even been on business trips where I have even been able to find time to build a couple Ship-in-a-Bottles between travel, actual work, and the seemingly obligatory liquid lunches when business types are involved.
But that's me. Building is a major part of this hobby/sport for me. There are quite a few people who are only interested in the flying aspect, just as I know more than a few who only like to build planes and watch somebody else fly them. More power to both! Different strokes for different folks.

I have a good friend here at work whom has built his own house completely from scratch. I mean, he designed it on his computer, he dug and built the foundation (with included wine cellar), cut and framed the house, did all the electrical and plumming work, sheeting, roof etc. But that's not all, he also routed stock oak boards to make his own molding for windows etc. Right now he's building the kitchen cabinets from scratch. And, before he could start on the house, he built a barn that is his workshop. He still works full time and has a fairly long commute. He doesn't look down at me for having chosen to buy my ready-to-move in house. On the other hand, I don't judge him for flying his GP ugly stick ARF since he chose to spend his time doing what he loves. He on the other hand, he really appreaciate the latest kit I've built.

Others might make other choices as to what to do with their time. In the end, we now have the choice to build and fly or only fly.

Choice is good.

-tychoc

Here's your post that I quoted:
You claim that other pilots who fly ARF's are "Lazy" right?(read as: inferior to kit builders) Did you know that, according to you, Chip Hyde, Mark Leseberg, Quique Somenzini, Mike McConville, Andrew Jeskey, Jason Shulman, etc. are all "lazy"? None of them have kit built a plane recently!(unless you classify a CompARF as a kit) I will continue to build my planes as long as I can, but I DO NOT appreciate being called lazy if I do not have room for a building board(and everything that goes with it), or the time to kit build a plane.

You, my friend, are a great person who has a the ability to build a kit and desires to take time out of your busy week to do it. However, you aren't the standard.(I'm not either nor do I claim to be)

I like flying just as much as building. I build when and what I can. I fly when and what I can. Life changes things. In a little over a month, I'm going to have to ditch this hobby for a while. If I don't buy ARF's, I will probably be out of this hobby for years. If I buy ARF's, I will probably be able to take this hobby back up next year. Which do I want to do? Be "lazy"? Or out? I love flying and I will when I can. I'm not a purist when it comes to models, I hope you really aren't one either. Be glad that you do have the ability to build your spectacular Waco YMF. Hopefully, I will be able to tackle my dream project soon as well, but until then, I might just have to be "lazy".


50%

Christopher,

You won't be able to build or fly during basic training. Once you get to your training facility for your specialty, you will find base hobby shops with building area's etc. Most facilities will have a flying field available as well. Trust me on this (I did 26 years in the military). So don't be discouraged, and keep on building. You don't have to settle for anything less. By lazy, I should have substituted the phrase, won't take the time to build. We all have the same 24 hours in each day. What we choose to do with these hours makes the difference as to who we are.

Bill, AMA 4720

Thanks for clarifying. That's the point I was driving at. I personally don't think of myself as better than the average kit builder because I will build from my own plans. I also don't consider ARFing to be any lesser of modeling. It's the motivation of the person that counts and I commend anyone who will fly ARFs to spend more needed time with their families and being involved with their kids especially. However, there are folks that I think you are talking about, who want everything handed to them on a silver spoon. Those assemblers are more of a safety risk than a benefit to the modeling arenas.


50%

No, Christopher, I'm actually talking about the flyers who want to have thier cake and eat it as well. We all have the same finite amount of time available every day. It's how you make use of that time that counts. Those who make the excuses that they have kids activities, and work loads so they can't build does not wash with me. We brought up 5 wonderful children. I have spent my time since 1988 operating car dealerships, and that takes a minimum of about 70 hours per week. True the kids are grown, but I do have 8 Grandchildren who require attention. You must set aside a few minutes per day for your own sanity. I normally spend a few minutes after dinner (tonight it was after 8:30) to deal with my hobby. You don't have to completely frame a structure in one time span. It will be there tomorrow. Do a little each day, just as you would eat an elephant. One bite at a time. I am not buying the excuses. One more time; What would all of you fly if there were no ARF's? You wouldn't be able to buy all those airplanes, so what would you do?

Oh yes, I will be at the dealership tomorrow (Saturday) and Sunday afternoon as well. So don't hand me any of that horse pukky about me having lots of time to spend on the hobby.

Bill, AMA 4720

dmajchrzak- You're welcome. How do you 'build' an ARF?

50+Years- You left out TV and video games. No wonder you have time here and there to build. (g)

Stickbuilder- I know what you mean. Did the same thing in the service. I built my last pattern plane on a 2'x3' artists board. I'm separated and living in a small, one room efficiency apartment. My building space is about the size of a phone booth...literally. Built the whole plane there. Where there is a will, there is a way. I aligned the stab and wings on the closet door that I took off the hinges. That went across the small TV stand that is my building table, across a sofa, and over part of the bed. (g) I have to shift things around in a major way just for floor space to check CG on my planes. And it's all fun.

Ok, thanks for expanding your viewpoint.

50%

Hmmmmm,

Still no answers to the question of what you would fly if there were no ARF's. Maybe no one wants to answer that one.

Bill, AMA 4720

Maybe because most folks in this forum fly kits..................

Well I started this mess so I guess I'll try to answer that one. If nobody built a kit or ARF for them they would be unable to participate in this HOBBY! When I started there were no ARF's that I knew of and I lived in the country where towns were not very close. Didn't have anyone to build for me either! There wasn't even a club or real flying field. I just ordered a kit through a catalog and built it. Then I flew it at our horse ranch in one of the pastures that had just been grazed off buy the horses to about 1/2". My flying field just rotated behind the horse. I had alot of land mines to avoid but it was alot of fun.

Gibbs

I hear you Brother. America's Hobby Center probably stayed in business due to the Country Boys like us out there. I lived for the new catalog.

Bill, AMA 4720

That won't fly Christopher. All it takes is one flame directed toward an ARF in here and they decend upon you. I think that they don't have an answer. Haven't heard one from you as well.

Bill, AMA 4720

Not exactly. If a person likes only ARF's I don't think that they will be coming in here.

I know that in my personal case, since I've never bought an ARF, it's a simple answer. I'll fly what I can, when I can, and where I can. I guess the next thing that I'd fly would be a Trex micro heli or a Raptor50. I don't have the time to draw and build a good plane, and I'm not to fond of the current kits, so I guess I'll just fly what I have while I'm building a new kit that'll hopefully be done within a year of starting.(I do a good job) Also, RCU and www.FlyingGiants.com / www.HeliGiants.com have excellent swapshops, so I could probably buy something off of there.



50%

Well, BLW, I didn't mention TV or video games for a couple reasons. Haven't played much in the way of video games since outscoring my kid at Space Invaders on the early
Atari, (Wasn't easy, until I found out one of our software development systems at work had the source codes, and since I was programming in PLM 51 at the time, I was able to add a couple keyed in subroutines to recognize me and give me a slight advantage after changing out the 2764 PROMs on a couple of game cards, and spotting a couple clues on a couple others. Intel hit something right with their MCS51 family!) And as far as TV, I never had any problem eating C and K rations and some somethings I never questioned in other countries, but except for a couple things on PBS, Discovery, History, ScFi, and Cleveland Browns football, most things on TV give me a sick stomach.

50+- so that's what they programmed in. I never knew. I learned machine language for the 6502 and did some of the same things on the early Atari computers. Cracking copy protection was more fun than playing games.

Auburn football for me, and some SEC games. I can build and watch the other games but get too wrapped up in the Auburn ones. I am now addicted to the Red Bull Air Race shows every saturday. You may want to give that a try. Those guys are doing 1/2 Cuban 8s and screaming down to pull 11+ Gs knife edge on the deck thru the pylons. Wow. Otherwise, I agree with you about just about everything else on TV.

maybe you didnt read me when i gave you your answer! i said they would either a. fly planes others built they buy at swap meets b. wouldnt be in this hobby.

Not interested in what, "They" would fly. I want to know what YOU would fly.

Bill, AMA 4720

No one answered (to your satisfaction) because we can't figure out what you're getting at. What is the point of the question? From your AMA number, I would assume you were flying 10 years ago, before there were reasonably priced ARF's. You tell us what guys were flying then and answer your own question. Why do we care what would happen in some alternative universe if there were no ARFs? In this universe, there are ARFs. Deal with it.

Personally, I've never flown an ARF, and probably never will. I fly Spads, which, technically, I guess are scratch built planes, but in practice are so easy to build I don't think I've earned the title of "scratch builder".

I have built quite a few kits, but my guess is I'll never build another one. Been there, done that. Lined up all those little bits of balsa, sand, sand, sand, little drops of glue. Wear the organic solvent mask to avoid CA fumes. Tedious, repetitive, error-prone manual labor gets, well, tedious after a while. In the end, what do you have? A plane that cost you a lot more than the ARF version, and doesn't look as good. Since you spent over 40 hours building it, you are in serious negative territory for your labor. Then you crash, and there's 40 hours of labor down the drain. Much better, I think, to raise the standard of living of some poor 3rd world laborer, who can probably build 40 planes in the time the kit builder builds one.

The truth is that they can build planes more efficiently in a factory. They have mass production, jigs, fans for the fumes, huge work tables, and skilled labor. Why on earth would we want to go back in time? This argument that people should build kits is totally strange to me, like we should go back to riding horses instead of cars.

Don't get me wrong, a way of life is disappearing, and that is painful. But let's mourn it properly, give the folks who lived it their due, but don't disrespect them by insisting that time stops and all progress is bad.

Mike,

Think your a little confused about the thread. Read the first one I wrote! Then MAYBE YOU WILL UNDERSTAND. By the way if you don't build anymore, why don't you stay in you ARF or RTF catagory? A little miffed[:@]

Gibbs

I guess the unspoken question here is are non-kit builders friendlier and more open minded than kit builders? I think that from all that I've read in this forum, that that answer would be yes.

Ok, now that I've offended ya'll, I must say that I hope the few examples that I've read are not the true feelings of some. I fly whatever, when ever, and however I want. It's a hobby and not a dictatorship.


Sincerely,
50%

p.s. Good post Mike!