Mike,

Truly I feel sorry for you.

Bill, AMA 4720

50%, all I can say to you is Amen!

Now I am confused. I went back and re-read your OP. It says:

It sounded to me like you expected some non-builders to be reading and responding to your question. I responded. I don't build kits (any more) because it's time-consuming, tedious and dangerous to your health, and the final result costs more and is lower quality than a factory-built plane. I explained that this is what factory building does for all products once a certain level of production is reached.

To be honest, I did think about the appropriateness of my response before writing. It's not my way to rain on anybody's parade, and I didn't want to give the impression of a non-kit builder crashing your cozy forum to slam kit building. But, in the thread, I saw quite a bit of bashing of folks who don't build kits (the most common epithet is "lazy"), so I thought some response was necessary. Besides, you did ask the question.

For the record, the reason I visit this forum is that I have, in the past, built quite a few kits that are still available, and I like to help guys that are building them now.

stickbuilder,

what kind of question is it to ask a bunch of kit builders like myself what we would fly if there were no ARF's i think the answer is obvious there.


50%

not all arfers are open minded at all. just got into a debate on gas engines and basically got told that there is no engine below 50cc worth a crap. i am an engine conversion nerd so i like playing with small gas engines. i have seen some mighty powerful gas engines come out in the past few years. but those guys still refuse to believe that you can fly aerobatics with a 25 or 26cc gasser. but that is a whole other debate.

I didn't mention ARF'ers. I mentioned kitbuilders as some of the most closed minded. There will always be closed minded folks wherever, I just see it more along the lines of kit builders.

C'mon folks, lets fly for fun!

Mike,

Your right, I did ask for opinions and I just caught myself being to one sided! I hate it when I do that and then have to admit it. Your opinion is well received at least by me. Thats as close to a I'm sorry as you'll get![]

Gibbs

You guys need to get a life maybe you can build you one

Topgun,

I have been building mine, what did you do, switch to an "Almost Ready to Live Model"?

Gibbs

just living. but me I don't care what somebody fly's be it a ARF are if they build it from a kit as long as they have fun with it I say go for it that's why this hobby has been around so long[8D]

It would appear that the question is not being answered by the bunch of kit builders that you mentioned. It is amazing, but when I asked the same question in the ARF forum, I got more responses that they would build kits than I did in here.

Bill, AMA 4720

I have to admit to being a little confused here Bill. Are you wanting those of us who build kits to answer that we would continue to build kits? [sm=confused.gif]

I really wouldn't be affected by the loss of the ARF market other than possibly having a shorter lineup at the field, and maybe some more interesting conversation ( building techniques instead of commodity shopping ) between flights .

Jim, there appears to be a lot of flyers in this forum who fly ARF's. I wondered exactly how many true kit builders there were in here. Not trying to confuse, just trying to seperate the sheep from the goats. There is always going to be some bleed-over, but I did not expect so many obvious ARF pilots in this forum.

Bill, AMA 4720

ARF'ers who are closet kit-building wannabes? Say it isn't so!

now go into the ARF forum and ask what would they fly if there were no kits! Kit builders Vs Arf Assemblers debate is so tired and pointless.

What I find amusing is that the original post was a question to ARFers asking why they don't build kits. A large percentage of the respondents seem to be kit builders finding fault with the people who only fly ARFs. There were a moderate number of ARFers who did state their reasons. Things like no time to build, no interest in building, prefer to spend their time flying, don't think there is any financial advantage to building a kit over an arf, or think they can't build a plane to a higher standard of construction and appearance than an equivalent ARF. There were also a few of us kit builders who, like me, tried to give reasons why we prefer to build, either because we want a plane that stands out from the crowd, who have been dissatisfied with the quality of the ARFs we have either seen or purchased ourselves, or to some degree just think the sport/hobby demands that we be builders.

I would personally only be upset with the current apparent preponderance of ARFs if it resulted in a total loss of the supply of kits. I am more concerned with the loss of good safe flying fields and the apparent lack of concrn for others evinced by a few "Park Flyers". However, since I have a personal stock of over 130 kits ranging from indoor rubber free flight up to a couple decent rc scale kits, and a large stock of plans and building supplies, I am not especially affected by the growth in the ARF market. I will regret the loss of the designing and building skills pool that has brought this hobby/sport to it's current level, and sometimes I can't decide if I want to laugh or cry when I see some of the ARFs that claim to be accurate scale models. But, I take a lot of satisfaction in the improvements in the power, variety and reliability of today's engines, the fantastic advancements in electric power, and especially the dependability and versatility of today's radios.

Just consider me an old-fashioned builder who sees ARFs as a natural progression that is still growing and reaching for the level the best builder-flyers have achieved, and not as an imposition or threat.

Good post!!!!!

That comes from 50+ years in the hobby I agree

Ok well there is one thing some of you have not considered some people can't build kits. Even if they try to build kits they can't build kits. They wind up flying like dirt, and crashing on the first flight. I don't care if it's the 6th kit they've built they still can't get it right.

Now thats not to be insulting just an honest observation that I recall from my youth with my father at his R/C club before ARF's were common. Any field you go to you had those 1 or 2 good builders, then you had a large group of okay builders, and 1 or 2 people that couldn't make a box of wood fly right to save their life. Kits put together so bad that it wasn't even worth tearing them apart to try to rebuild.

Eventually they just got to where they paid other people to build their kits for them, or bought already built planes off other people. They weren't bad pilots or stupid people they just totally lacked the knack.

Everything else however is just an excuse or lazy. IF you have enough room to setup an ARF you have enough room to build. I build in the corner of my room on a 2' x 4' folding card table topped with cardboard. Then again my father was one of those good builders and he build all of his models on the kitchen table. While other people can have a shop and every tool in the world and the kit still won't fly right.

Then there are folks who have to ask 50 questions on how to get their ARF setup.

So while many people can build they simply don't because a decent ARF is of equal or better quality than what they could themselves produce. Thus it's better to just save time and money and buy an ARF.

I think more people should definitely try kit building. Either the bug will bite them or it won't. I don't like anyone who won't at least try something before deciding on it. There's nothing better than the reaction you get from people when they find out it's a kit. The model gets appreciated that much more. Just like scratchbuilding.

However I stand on neither side. I do both ARF's and kits.

that is a good point. i have seen some kit builders that love kit building but would be better suited to flying arf's because what ever little lightbulb they need to build just doesnt light up. no matter what some of the kit builders might say Arf's are around for a reason and there will always be room for both no matter how you want to fight it.

Mike in D.C.,

Aren't ARFs just kits built by someone other than yourself?

And I'd rather build than fly. So ARFs aren't for me. You on the other hand rather fly than build. Alrighty then!

Kraus

I don't think so. Back when ARF's first got started, there were a lot of threads about how ARF's were built, including some by some knowledgable people at Great Planes. Everybody was really curious how they could build and sell ARF's for the same price (or a little more) than the same airplane in a kit. It turned out that in some cases, when a company like GP sold the same model as both an ARF and a kit, they were not exactly the same. Unfortunately, everybody in the know seemed to be pretty close-lipped for competitive reasons.

The impression I got was that ARF's are not much like kits. When you design a kit, you really have to think about an average person with average skills and average tools. For example, you can't assume that they have any kinds of jigs to keep things straight, so you create kits that are self-straightening (little tabs on the ribs for example). Kits have to be over-engineered to an extent to make up for sloppy building. When you get into factory building planes, everything is different. If you're building 200 models, it makes sense to build a special jig to hold parts in alignment. You can assume a certain skill level and tools.
Ironically, I have yet to own an ARF either. I'm just really sensitive, having three kids, to threads about how the "younger generation" has less character than some previous generations, just because they would rather use their time on earth doing something different from you or me. Talk about how young people who have different interests are therefore "lazy", "the instant gratification generation", "no pride in their work", "liars" or "impatient" drives me nuts. (I'm not saying anybody here used those words, but the sense of the argument is always that the reason someone doesn't build a kit is a character flaw, not a choice to be respected.)

Mike in D.C.,

I think it also depends at what point one jumps into the hobby. I came in 1977 Sig Kadet...ARFs barely existed. New folks to the hobby..."You actually had to built it yourself? How amusing."

So Mike, we of the old school will not stoop to ARF and they of the new school shan't stoop to kits. And in the end, a total crahs of either hurts the same.

Go ARFers!

Go Kitters!

Kraus

You are correct. A few months ago I started a thread on making kits from ARFs in the Giant Scale forum. I was wondering why I can't buy a kit of the pieces used to assemble the ARF version. I don't need a manual or lots of pics, just the parts and a set of plans to work from. A number of ARF suppliers spoke up and said that the ARFs make poor kits because of the way they are constructed, using jigs and so on. They are definitely NOT like kits built by someone else. They are a production version of a kit built by someone else, which is a different animal completely.

That said, I call bullsh*t on not being able to build a kit of ARF pieces without their jigs. People have been scratch building forever and they don't get any fancy alignment tabs on their self-cut parts, either. I have scratch built more planes than kit built and I am certain that I can make the fuse come out straight if they give me the parts and a set of plans to work with. It just seemed like laziness on their part in not looking for a new niche to fill. Granted, most of them can't keep ARFs in stock, so maybe they don't care about the extra business at the moment. Eventually, things will change and they may be looking for a new area to target their products into. Then we may get some cool new kits to work with... I would love a kit of the Wild Hare 33% Extra260 and the Hangar9 Showtime and and and, but it's not going to happen soon.[]


Mark

i am young and i build kits only right now but i am without kids as well so who knows i may fly more ARF's in the future when i have kids. i am married and that has slowed my progress a bit, since i first got into building and flying when i wasnt married

Mark,

I know what you mean. I've seen a couple of good flying aerobatic ARFs fly but didn't want to buy them. There are some things about the construction that I don't like, such as the wings breaking off, etc. I actually found plans for one of them that a couple of people took the time to do great jobs on. One is so detailed that you can't tell the difference between his and a manufacturer. I plan to build one before Christmas.