I'm going to attempt my second build project around December....a Grumman Agcat from Flod Fitzgerald plans (90'' ws). It looks like a simple build and easy to cut parts for. There is a kit cutting company offering to cut this in the $375 price range. What are the advantages, if any, of buying a kit as opposed to cutting every little piece yourself? How many of you would call a kit cutter for a project like this? Saves time...I'm sure, but what else?

I've built three kits and scratch built two other planes in the last 18 months. The scratch built gives you a bit more pride in what you are flying. The only issue with scratch building from plans is that you usually end up destroying the plans in the process of transfering the outlines to wood. You can have copies made but you always stand the chance that the orginal will skew a bit going through the copier and you 'work" plans may be off a bit, or even be a slightly different size. Of course, most of the kit cutters warn you that the output will only be as good as the plans, and any issues with the plans will be faithfuly coppied to the wood. If you take an old set of plans that have been hand inked before printing, you will find the line width of the drawings gives you a lot of room to get undersized or oversized parts. I'm not sure how the kit cutters handle that. For my part, I like to take the parts like ribs and formers and make them in a CAD program. I can then size them if needed and when I print them out, I use a very fine line width. I position the parts on a rectangle the size of my balsa and I can then move them around for best use of the wood. I then spray the back of the print with Scotch 77 and stick it to the balsa. Cut it on the band saw and then sand to the fine line. I get as good a cut as a laser cut piece that way. The only issue is with cutouts, but even then, it isn't that big of a problem.

I guess it just boils down to how much work you want to do and what equipment you have to do it. I remember the frustration as a kid trying to cut out parts with a razor blade. Today, if I had to use them to cut parts, I would only buy laser cut kits. Now that I have band saws and disk sanders, and drill presses, the cut issue becomes fun, not frustration.

Don

I cut my own parts from the plans. I also treat the plans as gold. Tracing templates on tracing paper takes awhile but it saves the plans. I've even gone as far as tracing parts from a kit (that doesnt show all the templates) for later use. I'm currently doing that on a busa 1/4 scale J3 kit, using it to cut parts out for an L-4. Getting a two/fer out of this kit. Having a wide variety of tools helps a lot. It took years to accumilate all the tools I have now. I also buy wood by the freight car load which lasts a pretty good while for me.
Edwin

Yea, I thought about taking the plans to Kinkos and having a deep discussion with the manager about size reproduction acuracy. Also thought about tracing the plan parts on clear acetate, cutting the acetate, then again tracing the final onto the wood. But that seems like a lot of trouble and I'm sure I'll loose some line resolution in the process. The cheapest and simplist way seems to be to destroy the plans as you build...[]guarenteed acurate, though, as long as you're good with an exacto blade and jigsaw.

If my plans are complete with all the templates, I just trace onto tracing paper. Then it gets stuck to the wood using a spray adhesive. I used to use 3M77 but I found a cheaper one at Home Depot and Lowes, just cant remember right at the moment. It just takes a light dusting of the spray adhesive to stick the template onto the wood. Cutting it out on a jig saw is easy. Just dont rush it and bend the blade. I've stuck as many as 3 layers of wood together and cut them out which helps when doing wing ribs. You can reuse the template or make another new one. Just takes a steady hand. Most of the time I cut to within 1/8" of the line then finish sand with a 1" verticle belt sander. The parts are pretty accurate at that point. You have to take the template off the wood right after its cut out or its hard to peal off later. Then just throw it away. I usually spend about two evenings tracing then two to four evenings cutting. My last wood purchase was around $400. I'm still working off it and have built 4 planes in the 80" ws range. Occasionally I have to order a little here and there to restock but its not a lot. You can make your own sticks out of sheet stock.
Edwin

After a few scratch built planes I'm not daunted by much anymore. You sound so versed I think you should just go ahead and don't spend the extra for laser cutting.....sounds like a lot for what you can do yourself.

GOOD LUCK!!!!!!!!

Thanks Gizmo....I think you're right....it is a lot for some wood I can cut myself. And Edwin.....great idea about the tracing paper, if you can draw a straight line while tracing ( I can ) the rest is up to the jigsaw and belt sander. Where do you get your tracing paper from?
The photos below show my first and current project...a 1/4 scale Piper Pawnee built from a short kit. Yes, over 80% of the wood you see came from my stock pile. Left wing is complete. Taking a break this week and I'll start on right wing next monday. After cutting most of the parts for this kit by hand or my own saws, I feel a little more confident about going into a full scratch build. The plus here for me is that the Agcat is a fairly simple model...nothing complicated about it. Alot of 3/8'' balsa sticks and some 1/4'' light ply for the most part.

I get tracing paper from hobby lobby (the craft store), michaels, or a drafting supply house. Anyplace that sells art stuff should have it. They have tablets in various sizes so you dont have to tape paper together. Go for it. You'll be glad you did.
Ediwn

If there is a service bureau in your area that specializes in making copies of drawings for engineers/architects they can make an accurate copy of a plan for you. Have no idea what it would cost (certainly more than the kinkos option), but might be viable if you really wanted a copy of some valuable plans.

jmv, these plans will be utimately destroyed so I'd like to spend as little as possible. Good idea, though, to get another good spare set. I'll probably do the tracing paper and spray adhiesive thing when I get to it. It seems to make the most sense.

How can people build these things on an assembly line and crank out hundreds and hundreds,,....and it takes me almost 1/2 year to build one in my spare time?? I must be slooooow! But, it's turn out to be like a piece of fine handcrafted furniture....something I'm sure I'll be afraid to fly.[:-]

I buy 24 inch X 30 inch card stock at Office Depot. I then take carbon paper and lay it over the card stock. The next step, I lay the plans on the carbon paper and trace the lines to the formers, ribs etc. which the carbon transfers to the card stock. Finally I cut the now drawn templates out of the card stock thus saving my plans. I trace around the cardstock onto the wood and cut the parts out of the wood thus saving my templates along with my plans for future repairs or replacements after any unfortunate flights.

Almost all the planes I build for myself are from plans. I go to Kinkos and have another set made up. I just over lay the copy over my plans and check the size. If they are off I have them change the setting on the machine and do it again, no problem. I don't like to over think it. Sometimes I just copy on my puter if it's just small parts. So far they have come out A perfect match.
I have A product called SeeTemp {don't ask me the spelling} advertised in modeling mags that can be put over the plans and you can use A sharp razor knife and score it then it just snaps out of the sheet. Now I have A perfect template and these get filed away with the plans after the build. Good stuff and better then tracing paper.
OK, went out to my shop and found all the info on this stuff. It's too good to keep to myself so here it is.
See Temp
P.O. Box 216
Stockbridge WI. 53088
Phone 920-439-1337
www.seetemp.com
GOOD STUFF!!!!!!!

Just an idea but you all might be better off going to a place that does blue prints. I am in the building trade and will be doing this for my next project.

A blue line maching requires the master to be villum or some type of light paper so the lamp can get the light through. The plans are printed on 20 pound stock and it tends to make some very dark copies. The new type of scanning machines can be dialed in and give you A perfect copy. I was A printer and had the blue line machine and started to use Kinko's most of the time for that reason. Still good enough for cut up parts though.

Here's a link to the "See Temp" mentioned above. It's too easy. I plan to use it on my next plans build.
http://www.seetemp.com/

Laser Cut,

I have a local counstruction company that builds only huge projects like hospitals, schools, factories, and so on use there huge blue print copy machine make me three copies of my plans. They do them on vellum first and then lay them over the original to check for accuracy and if everything is good they print out the 3 sets of plans. I don't cut my parts because I'm lazy and would rather be building but I like to have several sets of plans so I can keep one in A-1 condition to file and I cut the rest up so I can build each individual section at the same time. This saves me time and I only build Giant Scale WWII Fighters and each section usually has to be modified to be exactly like the real plane. This is time consumming and tedious work.

Gibbs

[8D]Question, do any of, or most of the plans services include a bill of material for the wood
required to build the aircraft? If not, what method(s) are used to determine the amount of
sticks, sheets, blocks needed for the project??

Thanks.

I keep a box car load of wood on hand. My last purchase was about $400. Most of the plans I have dont have material lists.
Edwin

That's where lots of building experience comes in handy. Most plans designers assume the builder has a lot of experience at building. Lots of common building methods are "assumed" and not explained on a set of plans.

For sure. I try to keep the popular sizes on hand at all times...I.E. 3/8'' square balsa sticks, 1/8'' balsa sheeting, 1/4'' ply just to scratch the surface. I look the plan over and make a list of the wood shown that is needed. Not all areas of the plan are labeled with wood size so I whip out the handy ruler and simply measure. Then I go make my wood order on top of the wood I already keep in stock. Nothing worse than having to stop a building project when you're on a roll and have to wait a few days for a wood order to come in.

I use tracing paper and a number 2 pencil to trace the parts with.

Then flip the tracing paper over onto the wood. Then, by marking over the reverse side of the tracing paper, the tracing of the part, which is now against the wood, is transfered to the wood. Then just follow the line with a saw.

I usually stack and pin ribs together, or any part I need two or more of, for cutting so that they come out uniform.

Maybe this can help someone else.

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Lookin for a scratch copy or any copy for a piper pawnee---wanna build it myself. Maybe a major undertaking but I love the look of the plane. I know plans are pricy. I have an empty wallet and bad credit. No crediit so, I have cad and if anybody would feel generous, I"d appreciate it . help? my e mail is [email protected]--please feel free to re and all that good stuff. thanks, frank.

Plans are about $35 plus shipping...you can handle that. The kits available are whats pricy.