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FAI under siege

Old 01-30-2006, 11:21 AM
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Ed Smith
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Default FAI under siege


Seems the AMA is making changes to the funding and viability of FAI teams. Please review WC or AMA entries at C/L Speed forum at

http://forums.delphiforums.com/flyfast/start/ or

CL Racing forum at http://forums.delphiforums.com/CLRacing/start/.

I’m not sure how this will affect us but we should find out and make our views known to the AMA.
Now we are under attack. This is just the start! The bad guys are winning!

Ed S
Old 01-31-2006, 06:56 AM
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Sharpy01
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Default RE: FAI under siege

Here's the post:

This a note that Bill Lee posted on the racing Forum



Hello, all;

The AMA, under the "leadership" of Dave Brown and Steve Kaluf, have re-written the AMA's rules for sending teams to World Championships. The net effect of the change is that the smaller disciplines will not only become UNfunded, but will be PREVENTED from participating in World Championships competition.

They have come up with two criteria that lead to a "points system". In order to be funded, a discipline must achieve a minimum level of points, and if the minimum is not achieved, not only will funding be eliminated from AMA, but "..that particular team will no longer particiapte in World Championships competition...". (This is a quote from the new rules.)

The two kinds of criteria where points may be obtained are associated with the performance of the individuals and the team at one of the last two World Championships, and level of participation in Team Selection finals over the past two cycles.

I will not repeat the detailed list of requirements for "points", but suffice to say that unless you have an individual or team finishing very high in the standings at a World Championships, or you have a large team selection finals, you are going to get not only the funding axe, but be PROHIBITED from attending!

And in Control Line, it's F2C (and F2A) that will get the axe!

I can sympathize with the continued erosion of FAI Team Support. What is UNTHINKABLE is that AMA would PROHIBIT attendance in a World Championships!

The end of F2C as we know it.

Bill

(PS: Not to mention they have eroded the AMA support by a further 40%. It won't be too long before ALL funding will be gone, no matter what the level of performance is!)
Old 01-31-2006, 07:44 AM
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Ed Smith
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Default RE: FAI under siege

I do not have to much of a problem with association funding being based on levels of performance. However to prevent somebody from participating in a World Championship event, if that person is prepared to pay the whole amount, seems downright vindictive.

Ed S
Old 01-31-2006, 08:31 AM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

ORIGINAL: Ed Smith
... to prevent somebody from participating in a World Championship event, if that person is prepared to pay the whole amount, seems downright vindictive.
Agreed. [:@]
Old 02-01-2006, 12:24 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

As an outsider looking in, I guess I just don't accept that the FAI holds the patent on the ultimate competitive events.

If you polled most modellers, you would likely find that events like Top-gun, TOC, and the like hosted in North America would be the pinacle events of the modelling world. (This new CAC could potentially be one of these events if they could stop head-butting long enough.)

Why not foster, encourage and promote North American based events on all catgories as the best events, with the best pilots, and the best flying machines .............2nd to none?
Old 02-01-2006, 03:32 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege


ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

As an outsider looking in, I guess I just don't accept that the FAI holds the patent on the ultimate competitive events.

If you polled most modellers, you would likely find that events like Top-gun, TOC, and the like hosted in North America would be the pinacle events of the modelling world. (This new CAC could potentially be one of these events if they could stop head-butting long enough.)
Well yes the US modelers maybe. But comparing the likes of Top Gun " glitzy sugar and candy" type scale modeling with the FAI WC equivalent.... well, it's just humourous.
As is comparing an aerobatic-circus event like the TOC to FAI's F3A.
Old 02-01-2006, 04:13 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

What bla bla said Marc.

One can claim to provide an "Olympic class" event... but it won't be the Olympics. All have their place, but only one is internationally recognised.
Old 02-01-2006, 04:41 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

TOC,
With an invitee's picked from the results of the F3A World Championships no less....you first had to be tops in FAI's event before you were invited to the TOC.

In simpler language...the TOC organizers looked to the FAI World Championships for the "top" pilots.
Old 02-01-2006, 04:58 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege


ORIGINAL: can773

With an invitee's picked from the results of the F3A World Championships no less....you first had to be tops in FAI's event before you were invited to the TOC.

In simpler language...the TOC organizers looked to the FAI World Championships for the "top" pilots.

Hmmmm --- wasn't someone posting not-so-long ago that we aren't sending our best fliers to FAI events?
Old 02-01-2006, 05:17 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

I don't want to get into all of the politics of the recent FAI debate, but last year while I was trying to help secure funding to send the US team to the World Jet Masters in Hungary, there was very little support. There was no financial support from the AMA period. At that time there were some individuals who even told me that jet pilots could fund their own way to Hunagry, which for the most part they did. There were some very generous supporters including RTI, BVM, the JPO, the RC Jets Forum, and others who contributed to the large amount of money it took to send the pilots and their planes to Hungary, but the largest percentage of money came out of the pilot's pockets. Let's face it, if you are going to attend an international event such as this, it is going to cost the pilots. Some can afford it, others cannot, and that is where the fund raising comes in. Some are more creative and successful at it than others. I hate to see the AMA back one group and not another, when the whole premise for the AMA is to support all modelers. I am sure I will stir up a hornet's nest here, and may not even understand the whole debate, but if the AMA is about to uniformly enforce this policy it may not be a bad thing.
Flame me if you must, but I see it from both sides.
Tommy
Old 02-01-2006, 05:18 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege


ORIGINAL: bla bla


Well yes the US modelers maybe. But comparing the likes of Top Gun " glitzy sugar and candy" type scale modeling with the FAI WC equivalent.... well, it's just humourous.
As is comparing an aerobatic-circus event like the TOC to FAI's F3A.
.......lol.........Originally, I was going to post that there almost seems to be an aire of arrogance related to the FAI, but I'm glad I didn't as obviously this would have been incorrect.
Old 02-01-2006, 06:09 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege


ORIGINAL: DocYates

I don't want to get into all of the politics of the recent FAI debate, but last year while I was trying to help secure funding to send the US team to the World Jet Masters in Hungary, there was very little support. There was no financial support from the AMA period. At that time there were some individuals who even told me that jet pilots could fund their own way to Hunagry, which for the most part they did. There were some very generous supporters including RTI, BVM, the JPO, the RC Jets Forum, and others who contributed to the large amount of money it took to send the pilots and their planes to Hungary, but the largest percentage of money came out of the pilot's pockets. Let's face it, if you are going to attend an international event such as this, it is going to cost the pilots. Some can afford it, others cannot, and that is where the fund raising comes in. Some are more creative and successful at it than others. I hate to see the AMA back one group and not another, when the whole premise for the AMA is to support all modelers. I am sure I will stir up a hornet's nest here, and may not even understand the whole debate, but if the AMA is about to uniformly enforce this policy it may not be a bad thing.
Flame me if you must, but I see it from both sides.
Tommy
No argument here. Fairness across the spectrum is the only thing that will bring harmony. IMO [sm=bananahead.gif]

.........but that wouldn't be much fun.
Old 02-02-2006, 07:18 AM
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Default RE: FAI under siege


ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

As an outsider looking in, I guess I just don't accept that the FAI holds the patent on the ultimate competitive events.
As you pointed out the FAI doesn't hold the patent on the ultimate competitive events. Just the international ones.
That's the point. They aren't run by the US, conforming to US rules and standards, keeping the local US market happy... and there are nothing wrong with the ones that do! But they're not international.

"An aire of arrogance related to the FAI" was very funny and totally incorrect. It's more an in your face, wall of ego driven Mega Arrogance!
And thats what drives people to participate... ask the US F3A team competitors Chip, Jason and Co... and these guys don't even win! It's that important to participate... so important to win that certain people within the AMA are desparately trying to change the rules so non US citizens can compete representing the US even though they're Argentinia! The madness never stops.

Ask a realy serious scale modeler if he'd choose either winning TG or F4C? The scary thing is that many of those fantastic TG scale models wouldn't even get past the gate... the rules and regulation are so strong. In fact the US has basically no world camp class players participating in that event.
They're famous name at home... but way down the score board abroad.

It's easy to knock the FAI... and complain about this ruling or that. The point is that they supply the most stringent, the most complex, the most competitive and demanding international events, world wide, period. The key words being: International & World Wide"
Old 02-02-2006, 09:37 AM
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ORIGINAL: bla bla


It's more an in your face, wall of ego driven Mega Arrogance!
And thats what drives people to participate... ask the US F3A team competitors Chip, Jason and Co... and these guys don't even win! It's that important to participate... so important to win that certain people within the AMA are desparately trying to change the rules so non US citizens can compete representing the US even though they're Argentinia! The madness never stops.

The point is that they supply the most stringent, the most complex, the most competitive and demanding international events, world wide, period.
It kind of helps to explain the lack of interest by most in that end of the spectrum as grunts like me still consider this a hobby and an escape from the pressures of the real world. I have no problem with those who take their passion for the hobby to whatever level they feel they need to go, but don't assume that grunts like myself feel the same sense of awe by someone else's choices. Nor, should that group assume they have entitlements to a higher percentage of a general model association's/organization's resources because of an "International" label.

However, you may assume some "envy" within the grunt ranks as we wish we had the sugar daddys that these top competitors must have to managed to be at every major event around the world.
Old 02-02-2006, 10:20 AM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

last year while I was trying to help secure funding to send the US team to the World Jet Masters in Hungary, there was very little support. There was no financial support from the AMA period
I can understand this point of view. But the problem is that there is, as yet, no 'stand alone' category for jet competition in FAI World Champs events. If US modellers feel that there should be, then it is up to them to lobby the AMA to ensure that their reps to the FAI ensure that the FAI provides specifically for the jet flyer. While they are at it, they could work through Canadian jet flyers to have MAAC help. Until then, US jet models can compete, but only in the general R/C scale category and that of course, run them into some weight regulations which might be a problem.

When I was on the MAAC Board, I was certainly prepared to make an exception to the regular policy and support Canadian competitors competing in the World Jet event. Only trouble is that I believe our entrants went of their own volition and not after any team selection process. I'm not sure if that is true for the USA. I don't believe that a national organization should support competitors who simply want to go, but it is a different matter if a national team has been selected. Then one can make a good argument for support.


Old 02-02-2006, 10:29 AM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

Marc,

As usual, you are imperfectly informed, not to say malicious.

However, you may assume some "envy" within the grunt ranks as we wish we had the sugar daddys that these top competitors must have to managed to be at every major event around the world.
Can you provide a shred of evidence to support this assertion? Most of these competitors accept a degree of hardship to compete and must have remarkable support from their families. For a start, I suggest you might have a quiet talk with Colin Campbell and his wife Susan. It may be before your time, but Colin Campbell was the MAAC President about 5 years ago. Or you could talk to Arend Borst, our last World Champion.

I do know of one FAI competitor who had financial support from an uncle, but only one.
Old 02-02-2006, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

Well you can count me to be on the grunt list. I to am a hobbyist... I enter some comp' and compete at the Nationals in the lower ranks and just like you, see it as an escape... when the job, wife and kids allow!
Now at the top end they take it seriously... of course some more than others. Theres a lot a *****in' with a capital B going on between Chip Hyde and the AMA about nationallity, citizenship and team placement.
I totally agree with him on that one... maybe for different reasons but his case is correct... no doubt about it.

I wouldnt be surprized if you AMA pulled the finacial packages and support for people competeing in some of the less US represented sports... control line for example. But a rulling that disallows representatives to take part with there own finances is somewhat more complex. Just so you're aware how lucky your are... the top US pilots that get financial support to attend these international events... that isn't the case in many other countries. All the F3A and F4C Norwegian players have to get time off work and pay for all the equipment, transport, travel and accomodation at the international events. An that's prohobitive! It isn't just a case of sending your best... but sending those that can afford it privately! I do believe thats the case in most countries.

Now, when you're faced with all the time and effort, we're talking 1000 and 1000s of hour training and preparing, being away from the family... (in some cases not even having time for a family because youre been training 24/7 for the last 15 or so years) getting the time off work, using your holidays, using all your dispoable income on fuel and models etc etc and the years it takes partisipating at the highest international level paying your dues... you can except at certain amount of arragance from the people that have made it.
I can assure you, it didn't come without cost... and we're not talking financial.
Old 02-02-2006, 10:42 AM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
... within the grunt ranks...
Marc ....

Why the intentional divisiveness?

What are you trying to achieve?

Your (and Ken aka j79) ongoing intent to create some "holier than thou" elitist group mental image of competitors is not only ignorant, but is beginning to smack of a hate campaign.[:'(]
Old 02-02-2006, 10:46 AM
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ORIGINAL: bla bla
Well you can count me to be on the grunt list. I to an a hobbyist... I enter some comp' and compete at the Nationals in the lower ranks and just like you see it as an escape... when the job, wife and kids allow!
We have much in common, I begin to see why we think similarly.

ORIGINAL: bla bla
Just so your aware just how lucky your are... the top US pilots that get financial support to attend these international events... that isn't the case in many other countries.
Including Canada ... which this forum is focused ...
Just so youère aware; MAAC := Model Aeronautics Association of Canada.
Old 02-02-2006, 11:00 AM
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Including Canada ... which this forum is focused ...
Just so youère aware; MAAC := Model Aeronautics Association of Canada.
Now that Jim is one hell of an inportant fact... and one that I've completely missed!
Bummer.... and I thought I was sticking it to some Yanks... I do appologise.
Old 02-02-2006, 11:07 AM
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.........a sensitive lot. Sorry, my bedside manner has never been my strong point.

"Grunt" is a term of endearment in my world. I could have said, "recreational flyer" to be more politically correct.

"hate campaign"
Now you are just being stupid, Jim.

Can you provide a shred of evidence to support this assertion? Most of these competitors accept a degree of hardship to compete and must have remarkable support from their families.
..........as it should be Dave. Perhaps you missed the "envy" part. We all wish we could do it, but as blabla said, most have all those annoying commitments that manage to come first. My jealous reference was to those same guys we see mag after mag at all the best events, while we sit on our toilets, reading the latest issue, knowing the 8-10 bucks we spent on the mag should have gone to something more practical. I live in a different model world where humour rules and the envous comments about the Hydes and Quique's bankrolls are a staple. It's just the way it is.

Man, you'all need a dose of indefencivelightenupedness. [8D]
Old 02-02-2006, 11:16 AM
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ORIGINAL: bla bla


Bummer.... and I thought I was sticking it to some Yanks... I do appologise.

And that same retarded, "anti-american" crap infiltrates our country far too deeply as well. Talk about insulting a large group based on some snooty attitude based, likely on resentment. Credibility just hit 0 in my book. I fly with both sides of the border and am ashamed and embarrassed by stupidity such as this. Not to worry, I make no excuses for this stuff with my US friends, suggesting that one thing that is international are "arrogant idiots". Perhaps we can lobby for a catagory for idiots because we'd have a shot at gold.

........... Gee Dave, Jim, I wonder where someone might get the opinion that some supporters of certain areas of this hobby do more damage to their own interests and wonder why most have no interest. Talk about "hate mongering" Jim? Still thinking the same Jim? Give me a break.
Old 02-02-2006, 01:39 PM
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Default RE: FAI under siege

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01

.........a sensitive lot. Sorry, my bedside manner has never been my strong point.

"Grunt" is a term of endearment in my world. I could have said, "recreational flyer" to be more politically correct.
A weak defense, even for you.. do you actually read what you write? Intentional diviciveness could not be written more succintly. You're showing your colours and they're coming up red. You're proving to be a true Marcist.

ORIGINAL: Sharpy01
"hate campaign"
Now you are just being stupid, Jim.
Thanks man, I guess my brilliance pales when compared to your shining examples of superior intellect/wit.
Old 02-02-2006, 01:39 PM
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Good to see Ye Old European sarcastic humour is still able to go completely over the heads of some people in the new world.
Old 02-02-2006, 01:40 PM
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ORIGINAL: bla bla
I do appologise.
Not necessary, we often get mistaken for our influential neigbour.

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