I see. I would definatelly be worried about torque issue if I was using a 180 ounce servo. They recommend an 8711 which produces 400+ ounces so I dont think torque is going to be a problem. My previous aircraft, an SU-27 twin turbine which is larger than the F-16 had one 8611A on each elevator with an arm as large as the one on the F-16 and had 0 issues with flutter or soft elevator. The SU-27 also weighed a lot more than this F-16. I do see an advantage with resolution as even if you place the link on the farthest inner hole on the servo arm, you still dont use all the servo travel. Unless I make a new cnc arm that is a longer one piece unit, I won't add an extension as it is one more thing that can break and being that it is on the elevon, it would surely cost me my aircraft. I see what you are saying though about the travel. I agree on that.

g'day boys, i'll try again to post, haven't had much luck uploading. MY f16, the FIRST one, is still going great, all you guys will be very happy with this model, it flys really well, smooth and stable and i concur with mr tor, if anything happened to it, i would buy another in a heartbeat. mine now has removeable elevators, a fair size job but excellent for transport, how about in the kit likai? the extended torque arms are possibly my fault, will never allow the term "that will do" to be heard over "thats the best i can manage" in my workshop. will post some photos of the removeable elevators later, and check the new post on the "fly eagle f16" its great!

p.s. to tor, that 'first' one is only a joke mate, reading about all these fellows building f16's is like watching kids grow, soon the have the 1st day of school, and then before you know it, we have to let them go and leave the nest!!

Hello Tor,

Scott.........Jay.......and the rest of you guys who have PM'd me about the Skymaster 1/6 scale F-16. As I mentioned in my replies to all of you with questions, I would try to answer everyones questions at once here on this thread instead of having to to repeat all this again.

The questions I have received from all of you deal with the following:

Center of Gravity

Stab position......(balanced? or not?)

Armament..........hardpoints?

Flying characteristics.......loaded up, empty

Building issues..........formers, modifications?

I'll start off by saying..........I do not advise deviating from the manufacturers recommendations on any building procedure, flight control set up or flight envelope regime.

That being said, most of my early modeling life I've designed, built and test flown just about anything I could imagine that should be able to fly......(and some things that were'nt). Over the years I've learned, mostly through trial and error.........what works and what does'nt and have adjusted my building and flying techniques accordingly. These days, manufacturers have seemed to finally all have it down for the most part as to what types of materials and building techniques to use so that these machines we're flying around stay together and are safe.........PROVIDED YOU FOLLOW THEIR RECOMMENDATIONS. Now I'm not a manufacturer so I won't recommend what you should do in order to mount the armament to your aircraft.......however, I will tell you that mine are mounted via removable pylons on dedicated hardpoints built into the wing. It is a complicated process with multiple composites being used and several laws of physics being respected. (hate to sound like I'm keeping a secret here, but for obvious reasons I have to leave it at this.........thank you)

The center of gravity with the armament on and off of the jet is in the same spot........I don't remember the exact position, but there is a photograph (see below) of the jet on an overhead pass loaded up where I had left two pieces of tape underneath........this is where the CG is on mine.

The stab position on the model in flight is pretty much where it is on the fullsize, depending on whether it's loaded up or not.

The stabs are not balanced, out of the F-5, 14, 15, 16, 18, and YF22, I've only ever balanced the stabs on the 18 and 22 only because it was in the manual to do so and to be honest I have'nt noticed a difference either way..........follow manufacturers instructions on that one.

I don't know who was building this F-16...........but "I HEARD" a little voice from somewhere say that one of the ways someone could have mounted those pylons into the wing is by very carefully marking the spots for the holes and then making a small boxed templete with a hole in the middle which matches the hole for each spot on the wing. Then, very very carefully cut out the squares on the bottom of the wing and using kevlar cloth and small blocks of wood which have a slight curve to them (as not to cause lumps in the wing skin later through temperature expansion and contraction; V-poxy could be painted onto the inside of the upper wing skin and kevlar cloth then laid down in there to soak up the v-poxy and cure............while that is still wet the little block of wood which has been pre drilled and fitted with a threaded insert could be AEROPOXYIED at the end where it mounts to the kevlar cloth and then the same little square that was cut out at the bottom of the wing fitted back on very carefully and then the bolt screwed in slightly and the assembly left to dry.............kind of like using that little piece of bottow wing skin as a jig. After that drys the little piece of bottom wing skin is removed and then a bead of aeropoxy is applied with a special shaped little l shape tool made from thin balsa or polyply........that bead extends out just a bit into the gap around the block of wood and the wing skin, then very carefully another bead is put around the edges of the inside of the little piece of bottom wing skin so that the glue meets with itself when the wing skin square is returned to its position in the bottom of the wing.......(a small smear....and i mean small goes on the little block of wood (hardpoint) edges as not to get it inside the threaded insert. After this is all left to dry........fiberglass resin filler (Evercoat) or something of that sort is finally smeared into the fine line gap around the square on the bottom of the wing and sanded smooth and painted (keeping a piece of paper or a bolt in the threaded hole of course.) Now.......that sounds like a fair amount of work to me and probably is........"I WOULD'NT WANNA DO THAT!" but..........I found some pictures mysteriously that kind of explain what that little voice must have been trying to tell me...........make sense? (I know, me either) Each store is now supported using the top and bottow wing skins as not to cause any lateral or longitudinal distortion of the wing...........or at least it seems that way...............but then again............I dunno........interesting pics though.

As far as any building issues............I really had none.......the formers were all straight on my model and I have'nt had any problems in any other areas of the jet. I am using a conventional setup of aileron elevator and no flaps.

Flying characteristics,

The F-16 has 36lbs of thrust and fully loaded with all of that armament and full fuel weighs in the neighborhood of 52lbs at takeoff............all of the missiles, pylons and tanks add.......just over 17lbs......yes they are very HEAVY and production armament I'm sure weighs a lot less. Those who have seen the SKS Kentucky Jets 2007 video may have noticed something.........there's no video of the 16 taking off fully loaded...........well......that's because the takeoff run was so long that it went out of range of the cameras! Nah, seriously..........it took forever to rotate and at one point I was'nt sure if it was going to climb.......then as soon as the gear went up, it started a gradual and respectable climb. All of that weight and more importantly drag has a huge affect on that jet between clean and dirty. I needed to keep it at full throttle throughout the initial downwind leg until it was up on step, then it flew fine.......as long as you did'nt pull the throttle back below half. And no abrupt rolls especially at slower speeds.......(or it's going to keep rolling!) Even after burning off fuel, once the gear was down.......I needed 3/4 throttle to maintain level flight and on final 1/2 throttle till touchdown (If you watch the SKS video closely on the landing you'll see the afterburner lights go out just at touchdown.........first stage was set at 1/2throttle, 2nd stage 3/4 throttle.

I hope this answers many of your questions, enjoy your F-16's.

Bryce

Thanks Bryce - that told me exactly what I wanted to know... which means I'll keep flying my F-16 just the way it is, with the
wing tip rockets only and no more armament!! I will continue to develop the afterburner effect, though - the extra weight
(approx 4 lb) doesn't seem to make any difference, and it looks great in the air!

Tor

BlackCat - I feel the same way! It's such a great feeling when another guy maidens his F-16, and so far,
they have all been very happy and love this plane! I was thinking about buying the one in the Dutch display
colors before the price goes up by the end of the month - we'll see!!

It would be fun to know how many actually fly this plane now??

Tor

tor, this is the new scheme, i have the transfers from tailor made decals, only 45 euro i think, now just need a spare month to paint it!

Looks great!!
Now if we could only get Smokewinders with controllable smoke....!!!

Tor

Tor,
I have the CG set according to the diagram. Seems like it's forward and I was wondering if I should move it back a little.
I'm going to test everything this weekend and fly next weekend, weather permitting.
Thanks,
Jon

Hi Jon,
I have mine exactly according to the diagram, and it feels quite right in the air.
I am crossing my fingers for you and hope everything works out fine!

Tor

Bryce:

Thank you for your answers, Just what I needed to help me along. I agree with you that staying along the manafacture specsfications is the way to go. Your photos of the balance and elevator will be very helpful.

Thank You

Jay

Guys,

Mine is now ready! Looks great with the extra detailing. I am going to go and weigh all my ordinance as I would be surprised if it weighed any more than a few pounds.

Bryce, were yours carved from solid Oak?!?!?

Rgds,
mark

PS ALL my ordanance (painted/weathered and lacquered) and rails/sleds weigh 70oz or 4lb 6oz!!!!

Mark, that looks great - I love that scheme! When will you maiden it??
Remember to bring a video camera!!

Good luck!
Tor

Welcome guys............thanks for the PM's. I don't mind helping out.

B

Hey Bryce, whats up man, Danny from markham park. Do you know how many ounces all the tanks add up to fuel wise? I was back and forth on the rhino or a P-180 and have decided after some delays from Jet Central that I am going to go with a P-180 for my F-16. Also, do you think the stock pipe is going to be ok for this size turbine? I am going to go with a speed limiter. In thrust we trust is what the guys say at the field. I had a 28lb turbine on my BVM bobcat so I guess this is right up my alley powerwise. Thanks man!

Well Mark, thats about what all that stuff should weigh, however, my ordinance and pylons I borrowed from the prototype Tamjets 1/6 scale F-16. Everything might as well been made of oak as the 5 main pylons are solid wood filled and the missiles with the exception of the Sidewinders weighed just about a pound each (4lbs) 1/2 lb for each sidewinder (1) lb The two wing droptanks were just over a pound and a half each (so we'll round that to 3lbs) The center drop tank......when empty weighs......2lbs.....It holds 40 oz of smoke fluid. The four main pylons filled with wood weigh just under a pound each and the center drop tank pylon which is also filled with wood........1/2 pound......(roughly 4 pounds) The outer pylons under the wing are 1/4 pound each (they were'nt filled with wood) (so 1/2 pound). The wingtip missile rails......I believe before paint were only a few ounces each (they are the stock Skymaster ones you all have).

So I think we are right around 15 lbs now........that was before paint and now the addition of 9 BVM bomb drops.........I wanted to be able to drop everything if this thing flames out in a bad spot.......or any spot for that matter.

Now paint.........I think it was in the neighboorhood of just under a pound for everything. (Wing drop tanks also have 1/4 oz each of 50 brass screws lining the four fuel tank caps. (all small scale details add a small bit of weight here and there, next thing you know, we're talking oz's and lbs.

Fill that drop tank with 40 oz of smoke fluid (just over 2 lbs) and the weight on the scale is right around 17lbs for all of that stuff hanging.

I'm out working right now but have pictures of all the above on and off the scale, next time I'm in the northeast, I'll try to remember to download them...........I just never even considered explaining this till now as all that stuff was way out of what it should be because if was more for prototype design purposes, not production. I will say this...........I can drop any of that ordinance from just about any altitude and nothing will break..........its solid. And I remember two of those pylons being just about the same weight as one entire wing! This F-16 is definately built light and strong.

On the contrary.........when I built the missiles for the F-14..........I used model rocketry supplies and for that jet.........Two Droptanks, Four Phoenix Missiles, Two Sparrow Missiles and Two Sidewinders with custom made pylons which were made out of balsa block because I thought the fiberglass ones were too heavy.........all weighed in at "2 3/4" lbs. So I know exactly what you are saying about your current ordinance layout.

All of you guys have beautiful looking machines and as Tor and BlackCat have stated on here........are going to love them.

For those of you loading them up.........or any jet, just remember........it definately looks cool being ready to "bring the noise" or sitting out there on the runway, but after you push that power up always remember to have an out if you lose that blower because the jet will fly......and glide "if there is any" a lot differently that it does clean.

In the meantime, I look forward to checking back here every so often to see how happy you all are blasting around the sky, keeping the peace with your F-16's............don't forget the pictures and videos!

Have fun,

Bryce

Hey Tor,
I was reading through the whole thread today for some "reminders" before I start to build mine and saw that on about page 7, you mentioned that you add 30% gyro to your ailerons because of fish tailing...are you using the ailerons or just the elevons? I am still wondering about this set up...maybe when I see my plane and look at how the flap/ailerons are hinged, I can get a better idea. Wondering what to "gyro".

Thanks,
Rex

Hi Rex -
I am using elevons only, and have used the gyro on the "aileron" channel on the elevons.
Like I said in the post, it's not easy to see the difference when you fly in calm weather, but
in a strong wind, especially crosswind, you will clearly see the difference.

Tor

Thanks Tor...that is what I thought but I was just wanting to be clear as I consider the set up on this bird. Mine is supposed to be shipping out at the end of this week, I think. I am looking forward to seeing if they corrected the hinge issue on the flap/ailerons and how some of the other "issues" have been dealt with (if at all).

Thanks,
Rex

Tor,

You made an amazing evolution in jets in a few years time, and your heart definitely always has been with the F-16.

Here a pic of your Kyosho EDF F16 of that time in early 2004... Remember ?...

Nicolas.

Hi Nicolas!
This was my first attempt at a "serious" jet!! A strongly modified Kyosho EDF
with brushless motor, Minifan 480 and 8(!!) servos because it had retracts!
It was (and still is) pretty cool to tax it out and take off, tuck the wheels away
and fly VERY fast for a 1000 grammes jet!!
Then the real fun started with my 2 SpiderJets F-16's - what a blast!! A steep
learning curve, a lot of building and sanding and glassing - and a fast pulse
for that first takeoff - what a feeling!!
The F-16 is the best looking jet of them all (IMO) - and just gives me a lot of
pleasure! Maybe there is an even bigger one in my future!

Tor

Hi Guys:

I'm in the process of shopping for some more parts for my bird. For air-systems I noticed there are two different mm sizes for t and x fittings, 3mm and 4mm. Which size do you you all use for landing gears, doors and breaks? Thanks.

Fiifi