practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I AM going to learn to hover this year with my knife (new ys 63), and appreciate all the photo's of you guy's who are good at it ,suggestions, encouragement to us to practice, practice, pra.............................................bu t if someone could give us "wanna-be" hoverers, some MORE suggestions on exactly what your thumbs are doing in those low hovers it would be greatly appreciated...i.e; when the top of the plane is facing you, I read on here that you input rudder to the "high" wing...what's the elevator doing, holding back pressure, or constant adjustments? When you input rudder, are you maintaing throttle, or giving blips of power? etc. I know I need to use a lot of feul (practice) to get it right, but if someone could steer me in the right direction and simplify a "here's where you start to learn to hover" simple (?) explanation of what's going on, it would be cooo man!

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Are you hovering at all?

Mistakes I see when people are trying to learn are these,

1- starting the manuever with too much power on entry. Your gonna want to get the plane vertical and have it stop all upward motion. Then try and catch it with power and hold it there. It has to stop upward motion first though.

2- not holding enough back pressure. MOST planes will want to fall out towards the belly.

3- getting the inputs for corrections in before you can really see the plane need them. That takes time and feel but it will come.
This is easier the lower you are...... Really it is!

4- Knowing what the plane should look like in ALL atitudes for a Hover and even more importantly in a Torque Roll.
Lots of people can hover but as soon as it starts to spin they lose it when the belly is facing them. BACK pressure is almost always needed. Do some entries where the belly will be facing you will help in seeing what the plane needs to look like at that atitude.
As far as "push to the low wing" or other memory joggers.... They have never worked for me. Not saying they dont work. Just not for me.


You are starting with a great plane and motor combo. You will definately be able to learn with it.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

"are you hovering at all" ............I got to the point, late last fall, where I could hould it there for about 2 1/2 seconds, about 15 feet off the ground (is this a good place to start? I am more comfortable, flying close to the ground than most guys at my club, was doing inverted touch-and-goes (rudder) last year with my sons spad trainer>flat bottom , dihedral; can yank a plane around 5-10 feet high all day, pull out of spins under 10 feet etc. so I feel like I CAN master hovering/harrier> was also harier/elevatoring somewhat, deffinitely in high alpha for some time, that's how I crashed, hit my car's open trunk lid*&@#> with enough practice!) but the plane would fall out before I figured out what control inputs to use. How about aierlerons? how much are they used compared to rudder for controlling rocking vs. yawing ( I think I just answered my own ?, use rudder for yaw. aiel. for rocking; roll, but what's the percentage used;ratio?)but anyway.. enough rambling......thank's wayne, any more suggestions????????????I'm also kinda looking for more visual clues too, with regard too elevator, aeil.,throttle input?

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

YEA!! This is so true. It almost needs to turn into a feeling or a groove you get into with the plane. When I get the plane down low, I find myself no longer thinking about what I am doing. Its a wonderful feeling, just grooving with the plane, almost, One with the plane.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

If you are comfortable down low stay there. It really is easier to learn that way.

For harriers and high alpha stuff use whatever control input it takes to keep it doing what you want.
In a true harrier you should be able to steer it around with the rudder and use the ailerons to dampen the rocking. Ailerons will also be used to keep the wings flat in a rudder turn while harrier'ing around. ( opposite ail to rudder input )

I also see a lot of guy saying they use as much control throw as possible but then they use 80-90% expo..... Whats the point?
Your gonna have to move the stick way too much to get it into the 3D rate. Definately use expo but use a smaller %.
I use at the most 45% on elevator and somewhere around 30% on everything else.

Visual clues.........
I am willing to bet that where you think the nose needs to be in a hover or TR is less than what the plane really needs. Thats why in my initial post I was talking about lots of back pressure.

Clean entry into the hover is also important. You dont want to have to add right or left rudder just to get it straight while you are entering. Pull up as straight as you can and add the power as the plane comes to a stop.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

"one with the plane"..................AWSOME, AWESOME, AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!! I'm starting to get the point, here's an example; I've got a lame flight simulator (cockpit master)(lame computer,too) and for some reason, the only high-alpha simulation, it (or I) can do, is high-alpha knife edge.....But I can do it all day long right in front of me, and although it seems easy to do with this program, I feel "one with the plane" not really thinking about it, just doing it! I geuss it's got to be the same with hovering, in real life. I wish I had a real flight G-2 and a decent computer! But I am SERIOUS about doin' it and I'll keep you posted on my progress, as soon as the snow melts here in MI...............Wayne, is the nose still down in zero wind? how much? ..................The experienced suggestions and motivation a guy can get on this forum is amazing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!thanks.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I am not sure what your asking.....

If there is any wind the nose will have to be tilted slightly into the wind on a hover to keep it stationary. If you want to TR in the wind the nose will have to be at the same position as it does for zero wind but the plane will drift with the wind while it is spinning around.
Make sense?

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

so when you pull up, your really not pulling "up" (true vertical)? or does the back pressure cause the nose to drop once your vert.?and how much are you correcting back and forth w/ elev. or just holding it back? (I geusse I just need to go try it? And then....try it some more, till I FEEL it!......................is that the point your trying too get across to me?..........I think it is?)

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I posted that before I saw your last reply, wayne, I think i'm getting the point.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

No you are pulling to true vertical. My point was that when you are starting what you think is true vertical is most likely something less than that. Thats the need for back pressure.
Most planes will want to fall out towards the belly. Thats the other reason for back pressure. Anticipate the fall out and try to stop it before it does.
Once its locked in you dont necesarrily have to hold the back pressure but the need for it will come soon. Its kinda like a pulsing input on the elevator to hold it there. You'll get to the point where you wont see the pulsing in the plane because you'll be anticipating what it needs before it does it and the inputs you'll be giving it are much smaller than the inputs you'll need when the plane is falling out and your trying to correct for that.

Think of it like balancing a broomstick on your hand. The inputs to hold it there are much smaller than the ones you need when its falling.

hoovering
 

Jive turkey:

yes to everyones input. But to make things alot easier for learning to hoover. go out on a day that is not dead calm. look for small wind about 1-3 mph. come in like your landing into the wind, at slow speed start feeding in up elevator then slowly add throttle til nose is at about 80degrees. dont go to 90 yet. work on hoovering at 80degrees for a while. get used to rudder and throttle for a while. when you pitch to 90 the plane will blow back you. This way you can practice using left and right rudder, throttle and only up elevator. after your comfortable with all that you can start going to 90degrees and worry about down elvator.

the best plane I can think of for learning to hoover is one of the profile edges. like ohio model plane 540 profile.

good luck.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Wayne, that is a perfect description!

Jive Turkey,
Don't know if you have thought about it...learning to hover with a Pizza Box flyer might be the fastest and best way to go...i learned in a few days....must have "dorked " (A.K.A. as Geological explorations) the thing about a trillion times. just gave my original to a club member to use. they really are indestructible....now i can hover/harrier it all around the field a few inches off the ground with conifidance. i almost never dork it now and i can torque roll it a time or two before i loose control and have to pull out or dork.
all of the information on this thread is excellent...i would try to apply it to a PBF.
With all that said.... the proof will be in the pudding when i take my morris the knife out and try all Ive learned with my PBF....maybe this coming weekend, but I do have a very high confidence level (i think thats the main cause for airplane "re-kitting!)

anyway just an idea...good luck.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

IMHO, the G2 on a fast PC can hone your skills so you are one with the plane. I was in your position with my Top Cap when I had the Rossi on it, I would flame out at 20 feet and stuff it in the ground. When I went to the 4 stroke(Saito .72) and the 14x4W prop and added some expo to my rudder and elevator to keep me from over correcting because of my throws it was like a dream. No more struggle, it was easy! I got more out of that feeling than you could imagine. I had been practicing for ever, so the right equipment really made a HUGE difference. Lots of guys say they like a 13x6 and so on but I was real happy with the slow flight and low end power with this set-up on my Top Cap. You should have a good set-up with your Knife and it will be a lot of fun. :D

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I think Wayne's "pressure" is saying that most planes are vertically stable, when they look like they are a couple of degrees on their back. I guess the weight of the gear does this, but I don't know for sure. Many do not "look" vertical. It's hard to describe, because every plane is different, but it most likely will look like it's laying back a degree or two. For my taste, the rudder is easier to get than that angle where the plane relaxes "into the groove". Start with the plane's wing tip towards you. If you can stay around 15 feet, that's not bad at all for starting. Just try over and over. Try 86 degrees up, then 90 degrees up, then 92 degrees up. Just keep on going a bit more over until you find that plane"s groove, and you are able to catch it with power. For flying the rudder I teach "When it's canopy in, the left stick moves the nose. When it's gear in, the left stick moves the tail." The main thing is not to give up, and keep it as close as you feel is safe for you and all present at the field. If you are as dedicated as you sound, it won't take long.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I'm gettin' all excited!

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I throw in some random thoughts. Waynes advice is some of the best you will find, read it over a bunch of times!

Here we go...This is what is going through my mind...

If the airplane does not start turning to the left in a hover, you are not completely vertical.

If it starts spinning really really fast you are definitely vertical and probably falling backwards a little bit. Expect a qucik spin rate from that YS .63, it's got A LOT of torque! Using a 13x6 instead of that 14x4W will slow it down just a little.

Perfect vertical WILL be slightly on it's back.

Perfect vertical will still have the airplane slightly on it's back, even when it's back is towards you!

Don't over correct. Make quick, but smooth inputs.

Knowing how your airplane reacts to each and every one of your movements is more important than knowing which movement to use.

Ignore your ailerons! Forget about them. They don't exist. No more ailerons!!

The throttle is just as important as the other two controls, don't ignore it. Knowing where it should be for your airplane to hover is just as important as knowing what your airplane looks like in a perfect vertical position.

You WILL NEED to move the throttle stick. Some people like pumping or "punching" the throttle which will really get the airplane torque rolling. It also gives your control surfaces some more authority when you kick in the throttle. It makes it harder for learning.

Find out what throttle setting it will hover at. While hovering, stay within 2 clicks of that position. If you ever need more than that to pull it back up, it might be a better idea to fly out and try it again. This will be best for learning.

Up elevator and right rudder are the most common inputs. You will need to just barely touch the elevator stick to hold it vertical most of the time. Constant back pressure makes it sound like it needs a lot, but it needs VERY little.

Keep your rudder and elevator throws down so you don't overcorrect or get into some weird spins trying to recover.

Once you've found the perfect vertical position, let go of the sticks. If the airplane really pulls down or really pulls to a certain direction everytime, change your engine thrust to compensate. It makes a world of difference!

Move your CG back as far as you can, but just go about 1/4 of an inch at a time.

Wind makes it much harder! On a windy day the airplane will automatically try and pitch itself into the wind, which makes it really hard to torque roll. It takes bigger and quicker inputs to really hold it vertical in the wind, not as fun either. Once you get good, you might enjoy it though...

NEVER and I mean NEVER EVER look at the tail in a hover. NEVER! Do not look right at the nose either. Look RIGHT AT THE CANOPY or where the canopy would be. Right in front of the wing is what you should be watching. The canopy! This will REALLY HELP to prevent over correcting or chasing it around in a hover. Watch that canopy!!!!!

If the airplane's back is towards you, tap the rudder stick in the direction of the LOW WING.

When you fall out of a hover, let it pick up some airspeed before pulling out and be gentle! Don't yank it up if you've got the space to let it get up some speed.

That's all I can think of for now, aren't ya glad? :P

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

...i fought the hovering thing on my own for a long time before getting some much needed expert advice on RC Universe last month...1. a 4 stroke makes hovering easier 2. hover into the wind & keep it less than vertical starting out so it doesn't torque roll on you...

...the video is of me on the 3rd trip out with the 4 stroke on my Knife - in over 125 flights with a 2 stroke i was never able to get it below 8-15 ft. - it's mainly pretty basic harriers but it represented major progress for me in a short time after quite a long period of frustration - it shows me TRYING to put into practice the advice i received here...

http://rcfunflyers.com

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I'm in the hover-learning process too. (for the past 8 months)

Unless I have missed something, nobody's mentioned computer sims here. (oops, looking back I do see it mentioned) I spent a LOT of time with G2 and eventually got some basic reflexes developed for control inputs for all orientations of the airplane. You can also take advantage of the program's ability to run in less than real time so you can let your brain have time to think at first. Then you can gradually increase the speed as you gain proficiency. It's good for that, but of course, hovering the real thing is a BIT more complicated since you're not flying a perfect model under perfect conditions.

Those "push toward the low wing" hacks are helpful when you have time to think about it, but in my experience, you just have to get "hooked in" to the model and have a direct eye-to-thumb connection to successfully stay in a hover (and recover it when it falls out). Stay with it, it will come eventually.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I believe its also easier, to hover down low. But get ready the lower your are the quicker the plane will CRASH. if you make a wrong stickmovement. I crashed a lot of planes last year hovering down low.

I can do rudder touches on my funflys, but I can't torgue roll worth a dang. My goal for this year it to beable to torgue roll, and harrier rolls. If I can accomplish that, my skills be in my opinion be at PAR.

Oh by the way, you will love your YS 63. I have one on a knife ARF and love it.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Come to think of it, i have no idea what my fingers do when i am torque rolling and prophanging, but I can imagine what they do and the directions they move the stcks in. I am not concious of what they are actually doing when i am doing it though, after a lot of practice the fingers move the sticks automatically.
Does anybody experience the same feeling?

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Yes,

Once you know how to do it you dont have to think about it.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I usually hover my super wasp in 5mph winds and if i try to get it completely vertical the airplane begins to move backwards (not down) so I haven´t be able to practice Torque Roll other than in my computer (Ikarus AeroflyPro). Is there any trick to do it in this windy conditions??

Recomendations will be appreciated.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Its very hard to TR in wind with a small plane and not have it drift downwind as its spinning.

Larger planes make it a little easier to control the drift in a TR but if the wind is blowing hard enough its gonna drift.

Go to the upwind side of the field, put it into a TR and let it drift the length of the field as its spinning. Kinda cool.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Where are they?

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

...if anybody got a chance to look at the Knife videos i would be interested in any comments on what i might be doing wrong or what i need to do differently to make it to the next level - more stable hovers & torque rolls on the deck...(sorry about the marginal quality of the videos)...

...sorry 'bout that - i left out the link...



http://rcfunflyers.com

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

GaryB,

Great video. Looks like your having no trouble with hovering.

Your very close to gettting that knife to TR. Pull the nose up a little more while its hovering and its gonna spin around. Try it.

On your harriers, use the ailerons more to stop the wing rocking.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I enjoyed the video GaryB. Nice job!

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

...the video was the 3rd time out after switching to a 4 stroke (@ WGeffon's advice) - it really seemed to help - i think i'd seen your suggestion to use ailerons to reduce wing rocking before...but had forgotten - thanks for the reminder - i'm going to go try it right now - i think i'll try to torque roll it, too...but up a little higher!...

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Gbond I saw the video, and if I can use these suggestions this year and get that good, I'll be happier than a 2-peckered puppy!!!!!!!!!!!( I hope I can say that on here?)

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Anyone want to click print on there computer, put this info in a binder and make an instant How-to-hover book!!!!!!!!!!!

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

...wow! - perfect day for hovering - almost zero wind so i was able to hold it steadier than in the video...i tried feeding some ailerons in a few times and i can see where it will really help dampen the wing rocking...one of my tail touches was pretty vertical and a little too solid - close to a tail slam - i had some covering to reshrink on the rudder when i got home but nothing broke! - the Knife really is an impressive ARF...

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Having the right plane is definitely a help, and as wgeffon says, the lower you go the easier it is! I wouldn't recommend going low until you are comfortable with recovering in the event that the plane gets too far out of position. In this vid, you can see the wind pushing my plane down the runway. The by time I had decided to pull it past vertical to keep it stationary, I wasn't sure if I was getting close to the ditch or not so it was time to climb. Oh, this was the second day that I had started to bring the plane in pretty low. The corrections came without any thought.

http://www.rcsites.net/johnvh/RyanUCD1movie.wmv

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

"Good pilots have dings and dents on the front of their planes. GREAT pilots have them on the tail."

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

What if the tips of your ailerons are all beat to BILLY HELL?<GRIN>...G

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

...good job, Ryan! - the UCD looks cool in a hover! - is that a Saito 100 your're running on there?...

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

I am not able to see the video, I just get a screen full of hyroglifics sp? Do I need quick time or something?

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

GaryB,
I'm running a Saito 91, 15% heli fuel, and a 14X6 APC prop. I kept it light by using 3001 servos on the elevator and ailerons and a 700mah battery pack. Hopefully I'll get more power from 30% heli fuel when the weather gets warmer.

Flipper,
I have heard this from a couple people; download the latest version of Windows Media and that should take care of it.

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Go fly with Wayne for just one day and you'll either be hovering it low and/or taking it home in a body bag...

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

Yeah,

I've done both... :spinnyeye

practice, practice, practice???(hovering)
 

My first attempts at hovering were just kind of "floating" the plane into about a 15 mph breeze, about 30' form the ground, while trying to hold it in one small area. Try it on the next windy day.