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Landing Warbirds

Old 04-06-2007, 10:13 PM
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Spitster
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Default Landing Warbirds

Some help here would be greatly appreciated. I'm new to this hobby and like all newbies I want to fly warbirds. I'm now flying an Easy Sport by Great Planes with an OS 55AX, it's a nice stable plane, I have owned and unsuccessfully have tried to fly 3 Hangar 9 Corsairs and one Hangar 9 Spitfire all crashed. I can take off and fly but landing is a whole other story. Can anyone help me out on this. 12 planes in 10 months, not good. Is there any information out there or videos? I have a G3.5 simulator and I can fly and land anything on it but when it's for real, can't geterdone. Any help would be accepted gratefully. Ed
Old 04-06-2007, 10:25 PM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Well ... I hate to be blunt but there is no other way ... []

As a Newbee - you do not have the skills to fly a war bird - as you have attested to (10 planes in 12 months - not good) [&o]

In this hobby there is a definate learning curve; trainer, second plane (like a tiger 2) and after a year or three you move up to an acrobatic plane.

You have missed the two intermediate steps...

A Warbird is by nature an unstable and FULLY aerobatic plane - thats how they stay alive long enough to kill their opponents... they make poor trainers and second planes... [:'(]

That having been said they are heavy AC and land FAST!, you have to add flaps and often "FLY THEM INTO THE GROUND" [X(]

If you are not ready for that - buy a TIGER 2 - it's a GREAT 2nd plane.
Old 04-06-2007, 11:03 PM
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fancman
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Read this. http://www.rcwarbirds.com/techniguespage.htm#t1 Sounds to me you have missed much proper flight training and should give up the quest to fly warbirds until you master lesser aircraft.
Old 04-06-2007, 11:15 PM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Bbbair is pretty much correct, except I like to say, "Fly them TO the ground"

Kind of sounds like you're trying to rush into the warbirds too quickly. Keep flying your Easy Sport and practice landings, touch-n-go's, etc. Is there a more experienced pilot around who can help you out at your field? The best kind of help is one-on-one in person.

Landing heavily loaded warbirds is all about throttle management. You have to get the right airspeed at the right altitude. Too slow and it will tip-stall, too fast and it will overshoot the runway. As you have probably found out, you can't just chop the throttle and glide in like you do with a trainer. Keep working on it, and good luck!
Old 04-06-2007, 11:26 PM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Well, I flew trainers, advanced trainers, ( like Stiks) and sport planes for about 10 years before I was ever interested in warbirds. THis hobby generally last your entire life. There is no need to advance too rapidly. Take your time. Savor the moment and know those warbirds will be there when you are ready.
Old 04-07-2007, 02:16 AM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Crash Dummy 12,
I will not disagree with my more learned and experienced pilots as far as how long it will take you to get up to flying a warbird, OK really landing since it sounds like you have 2/3rds of the flight envelope working for you. Like you I got into this hobby because I love warbirds and since when I look at my bank account and source of income I'm sure that unless the Donald decides to adopt me, kick the bucket real quick, and leave me awash in cash my warbird passion will come via scale R/C AC and experience. I've been Flying R/C for 1.5 years. Might I suggest the H9 P-51 PTS. That was/is my second plane. The was part comes from having gotten cocky last fall and balling it up while making what was suppose to be a straffing run. The is part comes from the fact that for $119.00 I was able to buy the ARF kit and since the engine and radio are ok I'll have her back in the air by late May. This time I'll spend more time taking off and landing and less time making believe I'm Chuck Yeager making a straffing run on a Convy or train. The PTS will float a little but lands much faster than your trainer. The whole RTF unit is a pretty sweet price and may help you make the jump from point A (trainer) to W (warbird) in a bit less time. The H9 P-51 PTS looks pretty good, with the purchase of 1 additional servo you can set it up with flaps from the start.

Check it out a Horrizon

http://www.horizonhobby.com/Products...ProdID=HAN2825

Happy Flying

Ben
Old 04-07-2007, 02:55 AM
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Flak
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

CrashDummy12,
My second plane was a Spitfire. Now, let's find out why you are crashing. Most low wing Warbirds have a high wing loading, which means you will be landing at a faster rate than a trainer. A slow and low Warbird invites the dreaded "Tip Stall" effect that causes one side of the wing to suddenly drop and results in a crash. At higher altitudes this can be overcome by getting the nose down and adding power into a level flight. However, mistakes too near the ground are costly. OK, you can take off and fly, that's good. The Hangar 9 F4U Corsair is a ***** Cat, but the Great Planes F4U Corsair is even easier to fly. You must always be ahead of the airplane in your mind as you are flying, just like in Chess. You are flying Down Leg to Base, (reducing power a little) then Base to Final. This is the "Critical Corridor". Final should be lined with the center of the runway. With flaps, power should be just under half throttle, maybe a little less if your plane has no flaps. You must fly the aircraft to the ground, it won't land itself. In calm weather you will need less power to land as opposed to windy days that may require more power to land. This is IMPORTANT...Stand at the end of the runway closest to the approaching aircraft. This will keep you from wasting runway, as many R/C pilots tend to land the aircraft in front of themselves. Once your main gear touches the runway, chop the power and allow the plane to taxi. The tail will settle on it's own. Once the tail settles, pin the tail by applying back elevator. Taxi back and prepare for another flight. Cross winds may require some rudder usage. Practice on the Sim until you can do it every time without fail. Good Luck.
Old 04-07-2007, 06:02 AM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

You said you crashed on landing, but that's all we know. There are a lot of reasons for a crash and we don't have that info, so I can't help you with WHY you crashed or how to avoid it.

However, an instructor could.

Get on a buddy box with a qualified instructor, (or at least an expert pilot who can take the plane from you if you get in trouble) and you'll learn to land in no time
Old 04-07-2007, 06:27 AM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

There are warbirds and there are warbirds. If you are set on a warbird, then you need one that is easier to fly. Some have more scale details, but a higher wing loading and others are less scale, but have a lower wing loading and are easier to fly. For starters, I suggest you try a Hangar 9 PTS Mustang. It's a pretty good looking P-51 that is a trainer. It has a good wing loading, flaps and comes with the NASA droop wing tips, making it a pretty good trainer.

Hangar 9 has also just brought out a PTS version of the F-22 Raptor, in case you want more of a jet look.

You can start with it in full trainer mode, then progress to the sport set-up. After you get comfortable, I would put the flaps on a separate servo and learn how to use them. Good training for later on.

As for your landings, it is hard to say without seeing them, but many new fliers tend to get the nose up way high and get the trainer into a partial stall. A rectangular wing plane has high resistance to tip stalling so you can float it down in this mode. A tapered wing, especially one with a high wing loading will not do this. It will stall, roll off and crash. I tell my students if they can see the bottom of the fuselage, they have the nose too high. You need to keep the plane slightly nose down on final approach until you start to flare. This is not at 20 feet up.
Old 04-07-2007, 09:23 AM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

One way to practice landing a war bird is to dig out the old trainer and shoot landings with no less than 1/4 throttle applied until touchdown on the runway. You can also take this a step further and do half power touch and goes. This is what is refereed to as flying the plane to the runway, which is a must with all warbirds, not to mention it is a good idea for all planes. I have a Tiger 2 that is older than I want to admit and this is the plane that I use practice my high speed landings with. I have done this so much with this plane that I have worn out and replaced 2 sets of wheels on the plane over the years and I am working on set 3 as we speak. Good Luck, Dave
Old 04-07-2007, 10:25 AM
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Spitster
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Thanks everyone for the information. My T/F P-51 1/5th scale with a DA 50 will just have to hang in the garage for a few more years. As some of you have asked about a more experienced pilot at our club, no one flies warbirds and I was the first to even have a plane with retracts. That's another story all it's own. I will just continue to get better with my Easy Sport and get better with understanding flying in general. Our small club has four pilots that have 20 plus years flying and Matt and I at less than a year. Generally only two of us are at the club on any given day. Thanks Ed Moorman for the bottom of the wing visual advice. I appreciate all of you that have taken the time to reply. Ed
Old 04-07-2007, 11:20 AM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds


ORIGINAL: Crash Dummy 12

Thanks everyone for the information. My T/F P-51 1/5th scale with a DA 50 will just have to hang in the garage for a few more years. As some of you have asked about a more experienced pilot at our club, no one flies warbirds and I was the first to even have a plane with retracts. That's another story all it's own. I will just continue to get better with my Easy Sport and get better with understanding flying in general. Our small club has four pilots that have 20 plus years flying and Matt and I at less than a year. Generally only two of us are at the club on any given day. Thanks Ed Moorman for the bottom of the wing visual advice. I appreciate all of you that have taken the time to reply. Ed
Crash Dummy 12,
I was in the same situation: only a few members at the field and I was the only one with a desire to fly warbirds. None of these guys had any experience with them, and they seemed to be afraid of them - even though they were all accomplished sport and aerobatic pilots. I was a fairly experienced sport pilot at the time, meaning that I could easily handle my Super Skybolt, CAP 232, etc. in all flight stages (take-off, flight, aerobatics, landing.) But what I really wanted was WARBIRDS!
So I started with the Great Planes .40 Corsair kit. It's a nice flying plane, but it turned out to be a b.... to land. I can't tell you how many times I re-bent the and replaced the wire landing gear and rebuilt the vertical stabilizer and rudder. But it was a relatively inexpensive way to learn how a warbird flies and lands differently than a sport plane.
I finally graduated to an 81" P-47 with a gas engine, retracts and flaps. After tip stalling it at 10' while on final - and completely rebuilding the %[email protected]##$% thing, I finally figured out the mystery of flying these warbirds.
Everything the guys wrote above is true. These old warbirds will (figuratively speaking) kill you in a heartbeat if you don't know what you're doing.
My father, who is still alive and loves to watch my warbirds, flew Corsairs off of carriers during WW II and the Korean War as a Marine. He tells me repeatedly that they were easy to fly, that if they weren't the military couldn't possibly have taught so many city - boys and farmers to fly them. Based on my experience with the models, I don't see it that way.
I love to fly my warbirds and virtually everybody in the club stops what they're doing to watch them. But I'm always nervous when I take one up. Maybe that's what "keeps me alive."
Be patient - unless Trump has now adopted you - and learn as you go. The PTS and the GP Corsiar, unfortunately, won't prepare you for flaps and heavy wing loadings though. Eventually, you'll have to take that big P-51 to the field. Look at it this way: it's the only way you can crash a plane and walk away without a scratch.

Mike

Old 04-07-2007, 11:27 PM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds


ORIGINAL: Crash Dummy 12

Some help here would be greatly appreciated. I'm new to this hobby and like all newbies I want to fly warbirds. I'm now flying an Easy Sport by Great Planes with an OS 55AX, it's a nice stable plane, I have owned and unsuccessfully have tried to fly 3 Hangar 9 Corsairs and one Hangar 9 Spitfire all crashed. I can take off and fly but landing is a whole other story. Can anyone help me out on this. 12 planes in 10 months, not good. Is there any information out there or videos? I have a G3.5 simulator and I can fly and land anything on it but when it's for real, can't geterdone. Any help would be accepted gratefully. Ed
As some one above said, there are warbirds and there are warbirds. I have flown warbirds up to .90 size for many years. I have flown one twin .61. I've had my problems and most were MY problems, not the machine's problems.

I disagree with the poop about flying the model onto the ground. That is why so many guys break gears and have so many problems. The other is because so many of the ARF retract systems are total JUNK and need to be rebuilt before you ever fly it. Many of the shock struts of the smaller, less expensive struts have too much slop in them and need replacing with better units. A wheel that can wobble 10-15* side to side can give you a lot of grief.

As far as the flying itself, those ARF models with wings that look like old-time KAOS models with new cosmetics all fly like an old time KAOS. They fly just like any tail dragger sport model with gear in the wing. Landing fast and flat will not result in a great many bragging-type landings. Snag a clump pf grass and leave the gear behind. Have you ever thought about having to use brakes on a grass runway? Do you know what will happen if you apply brakes, one gear bounces on a grass clump, the brake locks, then touches back down -- gear tries to depart machine! Same happens when you fly high speed into the grass, no matter how smooth because that wheel ain't turnnin'!!!. Nice slow nose high landing and a greaser and all is well. The model cannot hear you call it a "warbird". Your choice. [X(]

To assist landings with more heavily wing-loaded war-birds with SCALE outer ailerons. Try raising the ailerons a few degrees. If you have flaps this may not be needed, however without flaps it really does help. You can keep trying until it really shows improvement, then stop or back off a bit. Better take-off control, and real airplane landings.
I use to fly scale warbird racing events and that worked very well for those racers, which not only had to be fast, but were also static judged for sport-scale scale ability. My favorite event until they rather degraded the static scale portion.
BTW, few months ago, I showed that to a guy having trouble with one of the ARF Corsairs. He could not believe the difference. His model just became a total *****cat.

Now another item with warbirds is prop pitch. High Pitch props are not conducive to good landings. Low Pitch props are better. Since we don't have Constant Speed props we have to compromise. For a .61 2 stroker, an 11-7.5 would fly a 550-600 sq.ins. warbird very well but a 12-6 will make better landings, because I can carry some small bit of power until about round-out and then retard for a touchdown just like 1:1 scale. In 1:1 with constant speed, props to 'full increase' just prior to round-out assured lowest pitch with throttle near, but not totally, retarded.

So, IMO, good landings can be done well if you fly the machine from base to touchdown and roll out just like an airplane. In addition don't forget that power is the altitude control, especially on final approach, and elevator is airspeed control. Makes it all so much easier.
Old 04-07-2007, 11:47 PM
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

Hossfly had a lot of good comments and suggestions.
Read through this:
http://www.rcwarbirds.com/advisorjack.htm

It might help you out.
Old 04-08-2007, 08:07 AM
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fancman
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Default RE: Landing Warbirds

I think this thread has gotten way over Crash Dummy's head.

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