Well, it's not the first, but it will be different, so here goes... I was a long time user of Realflight G2... Back before I even knew any other products existed. The G2 served it's purpose, and worked fairly well, though the 3D physics were off a bit. However nowadays... Well, just can't touch either of these two big boys. It wouldn't be fair to not mention G3. I don't personally nor have I ever owned G3. I HAVE however used it at a friends house for a considerable amount of time. I will not discuss this product in this comparison because in my opinion there is none. Perhaps it has gotten better with recent updates, but when I initially tried it (back around christmas time) it was pretty horrible. The planes had an "off" feel to them. Not sure exactly how to describe, but they just didn't "feel" real... Not to mention the many bugs that I experienced myself (invisable trees, etc...) Anyway, on to the core of our subject...

In case your wondering why I took time to do this... It's really quite simple. When I was first looking at getting a new sim I spent a lot of time researching trying to decide which one to buy... The reason, or rather the HOPE was that I could avoid doing just exactly what I did.. Buying two sims... It's really a pain to try to decide, and neither of these sims is cheap by any means, so my ultimate goal in this is to help others like myself who may be looking for specific things to have one reference point to refer to. Hopefully this will save someone a little bit of money and give me the satisfaction of knowing I may have helped a few of my fellow modelers out.

To make this a little different I'll break it down into areas....

3D Airplane Flight Physics:
AFPD: The 3D physics are right on. The shockflyers feel exact, the OMP models are great, and overall it is VERY realistic.
XTR: Again the 3D physics are very good. Maybe just a "tinge" under the AFPD. Most people would probably never notice the difference.
Notes about both: Wolfgang (developer of XTR) seems almost religious about getting it "right".. You tell him WHY you think a certain plane is not "acting" right, and he'll fix it... I haven't tried this with IPACS, but from what I've seen on the forums (and one personal opinion of mine) this just wouldn't happen. However there do seem to be a few "non-IPACS" people out there that are more than willing to help people with setup of planes, etc...

Standard Airplane Flight Physics:
AFPD: Almost right on the nose. My only complaint seems to match what a few others have said. The planes sometimes feel just a SLIGHT bit "floaty". On several occasions I've ended up going into the aircraft editor and ADDING weight to planes to get them to feel a little more realistic.
XTR: Seem almost dead on to me. I have seen some posts that say it seems a little "too snappy"... In my own opinion, flying planes that I have flown in real life, they seem almost exact on to me. Keep in mind that I also tend to like to keep the CG just a tad bit behind the "suggested" spot. If you were flying the same model with the CG moved forward a tad, chances are XTR would feel a little more "lively" to you.
Notes about both: Rather your a seasoned pilot or are hoping to teach yourself to fly, either of these sims will be fantastic. That leads to our next area...

Heli physics (3D and standard)
AFPD: I hate to say it, but it's true... The helis in AFPD that come out of the box are CRAP. They don't fly worth a darn.
XTR: The XTR helis are AWESOME right out of the box. The ONLY tweaking you may have to do is dropping the "linkage play" and "hover instability" a bit. They actually make it a little to squirmy. This would be great though if you wanted to learn to fly micros.
Notes about both: If your an experienced pilot, you can spend a lot of time tweaking AFPD helis to get them to feel realistic. With a LOT of tweaking you can get a heli that flies and feels VERY realistic. For a beginner though, or someone looking to teach themselves to fly heli this isn't an option. In my honest opinion I don't think ANYONE at IPACS actually flies a heli... If they did, they would never have allowed the sim to go out the door with those default settings. I spend two days getting the raptor to feel like a real one... Once it's tweaked, it's very close, but XTR is almost perfect right out of the box.

Heli settings
Notes about both: I have to mention one other point here with regards to the helis in these sims. As anyone who flies heli's well knows, the FIRST AND FOREMOST thing you have to do once the ship is set up, is set up your radio! This involves among other things, dialing in your pitch curve followed by your throttle curve. With XTR this is a cinch. You start the program in window mode and turn on the "data display" option. Kill the motor on the heli (yes, the engine actually dies if you idle it too low.. The clutch works perfectly as well... ) and in the status bar of the window it will display the current collective pitch. Using this you can easily set your pitch curve just like you would on the real thing with a pitch gauge. Once your pitch curve is set for all your normal and idle-up modes, you can then move on to throttle curve setup. Here you just start the heli back up (reset) and adjust the curve for your various stick positions while watching the indicated RPM of the head... The pitch settings as well as the RPM settings are VERY realistic.. If it says the head is turning 1650 RPM, it FEELS like it's turning 1650 RPM... AFPD fails in this area. Again it feels like noone at IPACS knows much about helis... There is a "data display" option, but it ONLY displays RPM... This makes setting your pitch curves almost a guessing game... Yes, by setting the max and min pitch values, you SHOULD be able to mathmatically calculate all the percentages that are required to get various pitches at various percentages of throw... Ever tried that with a real heli? Might get close but.... well... I've tried this myself in the sim and it IS close, but you can tell it's just not right. Also the RPM display for some reason seems a little "off" Actually it seems off by just about exactly 200 RPM... If it says it's turning 1450 RPM, it feels like it's turning 1650... .If it's turning 1650, it feels like it's turning 1850... I've tried posting info about this in the "Aerofly Pro Deluxe" support forum, (about the pitch display and the RPM display) but my posts were deleted... Supposedly because they didn't follow the rules of the forum... Apparently it can ONLY be used for support issues like "my sound card isn't working", not "I need these data displays to be able to program my radio correctly and be able to actually USE your program".... (sorry, that part frustrated me a bit) Anyway, I posted the same comment on IPACS forum, but the response was that it's apparently on a "TODO" list, but they haven't decided yet rather to implement it with a patch or a version upgrade....

Using as a tool to learn to fly:
AFPD: If you learn to fly in AFPD and do it well, you'll have no problems at the field. Simulation speed adjustment.
XTR: Same here, if you can fly, you'll fly at the field as well. Hovering and Torque rolling training.
Notes about both: Reflex seems just a little more straight forward regarding setup in some areas. If your a beginner that may help, however, if you get bored easy, Aerofly has a couple of "neat" features that may break of the boredom occasionaly (ballon popping, pylon racing, etc...) One other thing to keep in mind, Reflex does have some nice "training" features. First is the "no fly zone" some people complain about this.. Basically it's an area directly OVER the pits and spectators... If you fly over this area the screen is filled with red slashes (to let you know it's a no fly zone) and then your plane is placed back on the runway in a take off position. I think it's a great idea myself, especially for a beginner.. If you go to a real field and fly over the pits your gonna get your arse kicked to the curb... If your gonna learn, learn right... It's not that you can't do this with AFPD as well... XTR just forces the issue. AFPD has a simulation speed adjustment. This allows you to S L O W the sim way down, try manuevers in slow motion, then gently crank up the speed... This can greatly help you when trying to perfect you manuevers. XTR does not have that feature. XTR offers a "hover" training for helis... Basically you can "turn on or off" certain controls... For example, you say you ONLY want to worry about your fore/aft cyclic movement... The heli sits in a perfect hover EXCEPT for fore/aft cyclic... Your responsible for controlling that... Later you can turn on JUST left/right cyclic... Then JUST throttle.... Then JUST tail rotor.... Then start combining them... Maybe do JUST cyclic... then JUST throttle/tail rotor... Then you can bring everything together and you'll be hovering like a mad man. Same with torque rolling... You tell it WHAT specific parts of the plane you want to control.. Elevator? Rudder? Both? Throttle? Aileron? Etc...

One note that needs to be stuck in at this point... A Sim is a GREAT tool for learning to fly, but it is NOT a replacement for an instructor. There are MANY things that a sim can teach you, but there are also MANY things it can not! ALWAYS get an instructor to look over your plane BEFORE you attempt to fly it, make sure you join the AMA and a local club. NEVER attempt to fly on your own...

Graphics:
AFPD: The graphics are AWESOME. The photo-realistic fields are .... photo-realistic.. Everything is mapped very well (except one field (sparling) that was apparently never finished but is supposed to be fixed sometime in the future (the fence isn't mapped out right). The 3D scenes are very well done as well.
XTR: The graphics again are AWESOME. The scenes (photo-realistic) are the same quality as AFPD. The models themselves are slightly better than AFPD. They look a little more realistic in my opinion.. Especially the helis. The 3D scene (there's only one in the box) for XTR sucks... It's on par with G2 quality. Not great at all.
Notes about both: Either of these is going to be a real close second for actually packing it up and heading to the field. It's unbelievable how "involved" you can get when you "feel" like it's real.. I've on many occasions ACTUALLY had that "sinking" feeling in my stomach as I was practicing a manuever and realized I wasn't going to get out in time on BOTH of these sims... It actually took a second to realize, HEY, it's just a sim, no fixing required! The G2 and G3 sims just can't compare, at least not with the photo-realistic scenes... I've heard some people say they don't like the PR scenes.. I'm not really sure why... Perhaps they were used to older sims where you couldn't "interact" with objects? I just can't imagine anyone not liking them myself. It really is just THAT real...

Compatibility:
AFPD: The home page recommends a pretty healthy setup. I'm running a GeForce 5700LE which is a decent card, but not top notch by any means... On the PR scenes I usually average something like 170+ frames per second. The 3D scenes slow down a bit (down to around 60+ frames per second) This is still MORE than adaqute for the sim. If you plan on flying mostly in the photo-realistic scenes you can probably get away with very low hardware specs. AFPD does apparently have some issues with sound as well. Several people have reported problems with not hearing engine sounds. This apparently comes from those who have surround sound. You HAVE to disable the surround sound and put in in normal stereo "2 speaker" mode to get it to work. There seems to be another issue some have (including myself) which is with the engine sound being "staticy" It's there, and you can hear it, but it sounds noisy and un-realistic. I had an SB Live card, and even tried removing it and using the built in sound on the motherboard, but both had the same result. Not sure what this is a problem with. It's not a huge deal, but it does detract a bit from the realism if you happen to have this problem.
XTR: The requirements seem about the same as for AFPD's photo-realistic. My frame rates are just slightly less (around 150+) with XTR. Perhaps some extra processing, or the fact that the models are much more accurate. Not sure.
Notes about both: I think any reasonably newer computer is going to run either of these sims with no problems. The only REAL requirement they both have is that you support DirectX9... AFPD does also require OpenGL I believe.

Selection of Aircraft:
AFPD: AFPD comes with a ton of planes, and even more are available on the web. My ONLY complaint about them is the TYPES of planes that are available. I'm not sure exactly why this is, but there doesn't seem to be many models that I'm that familer with. For example, I fly a p51-d, Ultra Sport 40+, Twist 3D, Fun-Air, and a Raptor 30. The stock raptor obviously wasn't great (see above section on helis), and the p51-d that comes stock is a BIG model. Didn't really compare to my 60 size plane. I guess perhaps this is because most of the people developing the models are over seas? I dunno, but I just couldn't seem to find the planes I was looking for... Keep in mind though there are TONS of them out there to choose from. Maybe I'm just picky.. You also have to be careful as some models that were designed for Aerofly will not work correctly with pro deluxe. Many are being converted though. Also I have to mention the OMP planes now. LOTS of OMP models are available, and while I don't own a real one, everyone says they fly VERY realistically.
XTR: There are LOTS of airplanes and helis to choose from out of the box as well... Many seem to be a little more familer to me (Joker, Logo, Corona, Raptor 30, 50 and caliber 30 to name a few as far as helis.... Katana Eagles, P-40, Flip 3D, Pitts Special, and Tiger Moth to name a few planes...) There seem to be more downloads available for XTR as well, This is probably due to the longer period of time XTR has been available. More models will probably start to appear for AFPD as time goes on.

Radio Setup:
Notes about both: There really isn't much to say in this area. EXCEPT... AFPD is a little better in my opinion about one thing... It does use seperate (or rather CAN) for the ailerons... This allows you to use mixes in your radio for spoilerons, flaperons, etc... XTR does NOT support this... It's a single aileron channel... There IS however support for flaps in XTR.... It's just a different channel. AFPD also comes default in mode 1... So us US guys will have to make some changes... Reflex doesn't come set for anything, you assign channels right from the start.

Price I paid for NEW:
AFPD: $170 (free shipping) from OMP (www.aeroflypro.com)
XTR: $185 (free shipping) from Xtreme RC (store.xtremercproducts.com)

Summary:
Here's the bottom line...

If your just looking for something to use on those rainy days... Your going to be thrilled with EITHER of these sims... Neither one is going to let you down in any way. They are both a blast...
If your a beginner, and want to learn to fly, either will do a fantastic job, but XTR may have a slight edge because of it's no fly zone.
If your a 3D pilot, AFPD is probably the way to go. It has a lot of stock 3D planes, and again the 3D physics are very accurate
If your a foamie pilot, AFPD is DEFINATELY the way to go, the foamies in AFPD are dead on.
If your a heli pilot, don't think twice.. Buy XTR
If your a pattern pilot, AFPD probably has a bit of an edge now
If your a sport pilot, your probably going to be equally happy with either
If your a turbine or jet pilot, don't think twice.. Buy AFPD

I hope at least SOMEONE out there finds this information useful... If you have any specific questions about EITHER product please feel free to contact me and I'll do my best to answer.

XTR handles more like reality, AFPD handles more like a better training tool. If you are a beginner YOu will LIKE AFPD PRO better its more forgiving. IF you are Advanced, you will like XTR better

I just spent 3 hours with a guy who flies AFP/AFPD religiously and hes said XTR flies more realistically, and that it would be a better simulator after AFPD
BUT he said for beginiers who want to LEARN 3d, AFPD is better because of the stall points on it are not as realistic and will allow you some levarage.

Overall I see what your saying, but I don't think you are an experienced pilot. Many of the points you hit on were "features" like balloon popping and stuff you don't really talk about physics. You will need to do some tweaking with the planes in BOTH afpd and reflex, but planes handle more realistically in reflex, their is no chaning this its a FACT. If you think this is not so, you don't fly 3d, you obvicously have not played with xtr long enough. In fact people think patern fun flying is better on AFPD then on reflex. But Reflex is always more realistic.

Here is the real deal:
Their are 2 questions you must ask yourself, 1 is best way to train, and 2 What type of training

Now, some people you want a sim to be realistic, but is REALISITC really the best way to train? Think of it as the buddy box system at flying fields, sure its not realistic when you don't have control of the plane the whole time, but the buddy box system does help you become a better pilot. AFPD physics are more realaxed, they are more forgiving and let you learn easier.
ON the other hand, we have the seasoned pilot, AFPD really won't simulate the reality the way xtr does, if you want to move from intermediate to advance, move to XTR. XTR while being very realistic may not be the best way to train because all of the little extra stuff you have to worry about.

However, if you are willing to put the time and wan't the closest you can get to reality, XTR is the way to go.
If you don't care about reality as much but are more intreseted in how a plane behalves in 3d flight, get AFPD.

AFPD is easier to train on. Not the best in physics. XTR is the opposite.

Pretty strong statement there

It seems to me that a certain person above tries to shoot down AFPD in every single post, regardless of what people state. I learned to fly warbirds on AFP, and it did its job. AFPD has excellent physics in my opinion. I have a copy of Reflex XTR coming, so we will see which one has more realistic physics for warbirds and sport planes.

Today while trying to find a paved airstrip in Reflex XTR I discovered that the fields are mostly all grass.
There are very few paved airstrips and the ones I found downloaded and installed do not function correctly with planes.
I can ignore the errors and get them to work with Helicoptors but with airplanes, the wheels sink into the pavement and generally have a hard time of it. RealFlight sometimes had this type of problem and I found a way to correct it, In Reflex XTR I do not yet know how to correct this issue.

Insults breed contempt for the originator, and do not reflect well on what they say.
I grow more tired by the day at seeing even mild hostility showing up reguarding simulator preferences.
Unless food is being taken from your mouth, what is the hostility?
I have found that often the most fearful are the most hostile.
Love, compassion, caring, and forgiveness usually carry more understanding and are not quick to condem.
Sure we all have faults, but we all have daily opportunities to grow also.
How wonderful can we be as people?
It is much harder to be kind and considerate than it is to be hostile and condeming.
We can make a better world, or we can promote more conflicts . . .
We all choose now, and then again, and again . . .
The choices continue untill we die.
Even then on some other plane our energy may continue with some form of personal experience.
All improvement begins with self responsibility and self observation and correction.
and yes, of course there is always more to the story.

really, I don't see a point in why you want another sim jsut for warbirds and sport planes
its in 3d flying where either sim really makes a difference.

As for the AFPD comment, If you think I "SHOT DOWN" afpd you need to learn to read between the lines, clearly it states afpd's strenght and weakness and dido for xtr.
The guy really doens't know what he is talking about saying afpd has better 3d physics and saying xtr has better sport/warbird physics, Where everyone I have spoke to is more likely to say the opposite, or just say xtr is better in both.

You will see for yourself when you get xtr maybe then you'll see I just don't make things up, I speak for experience after putting time on both sims.


yes its true, out of the box physics are off for in both sims and if that is what the original poster seems to have based his opnion on.

but I think you will be dissapointed in xtr's warbirds because it only comes with 1 warbird and thier are like 5 more you can download.

you fail to realize the implications in what you are saying, in essence your saying its ok for wrong information to flurish.
Your philosphies sound good in concept but don't work in real life, otherwise we wouldn't have wars, and richard L. would have no warbird to fly
The reason I feeling stronly about XTR, is because I bought AFPD mostly because of what is said in thie from which has a AFPD bias going on...
however, after independantly trying XTR, I was convinced thier is a lot of B.S. going on here... So when I see a post in which I don't agree I will say something about it, if you can't take it then don't post ina message board.

This is not a guestbook where you can just leave your mark and put on a grin and hope everyone agrees with you
Anyone looking to buy a sim should evulate both sides I think,.

Fact of the matter is whenever a comparasion is done and people give the heads up on afpd, the sheep follow and say yes, you're right.
When any other sim be it g3 or xtr, it always goes into a conflict. SO I guess you can say I am evening the tables a bit as a loyal xtr user [>:]

FYI... I've been flying since I was 12 years old... I'm now 30.... I'd call that an experienced pilot... I fly sport, pattern, and 3D.

I'm not sure where you came up with this, especially since I had a whole section commited to 3D physics, heli physics, general physics, etc...

Hey rusirius could you post the settings for the raptor.The tweaks u made to make it more realistic.Thanks

Nice review very informative.

Hey rusirius if you had AFPD would you sell it and get Reflex XTR?

It seems they are neck and neck in all the reviews I read, and the general concensous is that Helis are slightly better in Reflex. I only care about planes not rotors.

I would say it's safe to make these statements...
If your primary focus is on planes: You'll probably be just as happy or happier with AFPD... If you own either, there is certainly no reason to sell either to buy the other.
If your primary focus is on heli's, you'll definately be happier with XTR...

And just so you know... My ORIGINAL intention was to buy and use both for a period of time. Decide which was better in the long run and then sell the other. I'm about 90% certain at this time that I'm going to KEEP BOTH... Theres no doubt I'll always keep reflex because of the helis... I may end up eventually selling AFPD, but not sure at this time.


Sure, I'm at work right at the moment, but as soon as I get home I'll post all the settings on the rappy as well as my pitch / throttle curves for it...

Also one other thing I forgot to mention in my original post... This is a review of Aerofly Pro DELUXE only! Not Aerofly Pro... I've never owned nor even used Aerofly Pro... Only the deluxe... My understanding however is that deluxe was an improvement to the physics, so I can only assume it would rank below these two sims. Also, I was a bit harsh on the G3, which may be unfair considering I've only had about 2 or 3 hours of stick time on it, but that was long enough for me to form my opinion. Fact is, I liked it MUCH less than G2... However, it does bear mentioning that it DOES have support for multi-player... Which is something neither of the other two sims has.

I'm getting sick and tired of having mods remove my posts,
This is so lame that sponsors get to get away with crap like this.

all the more to show afpd really does suck[:'(]

I just switched from G3 to AFPD and can assure you it does not suck!
G3 sucks and AFPD is like dying and going to heaven in comparison

i wonder why your posts are being removed


see the top of the posting box.
rusirius, nice bit of work there.

Well, it would have been a different story had you given your unbiased opinions on AFPD instead of trying to shoot it down in every single post. I can assure you that AFPD does not suck.

Edited

You can tell by the well written review with facts and details that rusirius is an experienced pilot. Since I fly 3D aircraft, I prefer AFPD as well. But there's always room for more toys...if I get another sim, my next choice would be Reflex (I have tried it). At this point I see no reason to look at G3...I have G2 and I hear the physics on G3 are no better, maybe worse.

Peefittyonefan, if you have AFPD and G3, sell G3 and get Relex...why not have 2. If you only can keep one and you prefer airplane flying, keep AFPD. My opinion!

LOL....Listen to me, AFPD is the best, repeat , AFPD is the best.....LOL...No seriously I thing
you can't go wrong with both sims. Both are great tools to improve your skills.


AFPD does not suck but your post are....

Tried reflex xtr today for about 3 hours and bottom line i spent my money wisely on afpd.

Hey all, i recieved a copy of Reflex yesterday as i had to for myself see which sim in my opinion was indeed better for 3-D flight. I recieved AFP-Deluxe for christmas and after opening and loading it i was just totally impressed! I after reading so many threads on this comparison of these 2 sims had to see reflex for myself. I must say after loading it and fooling around for about an hour or so was disapointed.... my adaptor for my afp-deluxe was giving me some glitching problems so ikurus is replacing it for me, however i have been without that sim for almost a week now and i Really miss it! Even tho i have reflex now i would rather have my Aerofly pro deluxe. I have been flying 3-D for awhile now and must say it's realism is very close to exact, yes there are some balloony planes however this is where the addition of weight cures that. The planes in reflex are snappy, but my real planes are not as snappy as those seem to be!bI am sure that with some tweeking they can be just as good but it is funny how my instinct tells me i prefer AFP-Deluxe, this is only my opinion and not an attempt to bash reflex, as i think it is a very cool acurate sim however i think aerofly is the better of the 2. Anyone out there looking for the Reflex sim with a Futaba square 9-c adaptor can contact me via PM let me know as mine is for sale. It is cool however i see no reason to keep both. Later all!

Interesting -care to provide more details?

Please send me a how to tune up my AFPD Helies? Thanks john [email protected]

Sorry guys... Just did get home from work... (weather event.. Okay, here's my settings for the AFPD raptor... This is the most realistic I can get it to fly in my opinion... It's pretty good...

Fuselage:
Weight: 2345 g
CG: 0cm 0cm 0cm
Frontal Drag: .30
Lateral Drag: .70
Lateral Lift: 1.1
Vertical Drag: .40
Vertical Lift: .9

Main Rotor:
Diameter: 124.5
Gear Ratio: 9.56
Blade Weight: 99.79g
Pitch min: -12
Pitch max: +12
Cyclic Pitch: 7

Tail Rotor:
Diameter: 24.4 cm
Gear Ratio: 4.1
Pitch min: -20
Pitch max: +20
Gyro Gain: 80
Gyro Zero Adjust: 35
Gyro Range: 40
Heading Hold: Yes
Piro Speed: 720 deg/s

Engine:
Max Power: .9 kW
Torque: 0%
Idle RPM: 2000RPM
Max RPM: 17000RPM
Weight: 335.66g
Right Thrust: 3 deg
Down Thrust: -2 deg

Here are my radio settings too. (I'm using a 9C, but shouldn't make any difference... If you only have three point curves, just use the top, bottom, and middle numbers.... if you have 7 points, just interpolate the middle figures...

Throttle Curves:
Normal: 30%, 45%, 56%, 70%, 83%
Idle-Up: 100%, 78%, 64%, 78%, 100% (I only use one idle-up on the sims)


Pitch Curves:
Normal: 23%, 44.5%, 63%, 78.5%, 88%
Idle-Up: 12%, 30%, 50%, 69%, 88%
Thr-Hold: 21%, 37.5%, 60%, 82%, 100%

Revo Mix off of course... Throttle Hold position at 0%

I generally use about 15% expo, but expo and dual-rates are for your preference...