What is with the sim developers? Can someone explain why I have to buy THEIR cords? This is rediculous to the point that its aggrivating.

Firstly, dont say its for protection on their part, its not, im a developer myself, there are many better ways to protect software that arent as expensive for the end user. The price of these sims are already rediculously high for what you get (full-scale flight sims with MUCH more detailed physics and graphics for 40bux....)

There is no need to do what they do, in forcing you to use their hardware to use there software, it would be much simpler, and in turn, much more user freindly to have the controllers show up as simple joysticks when connected to the computer, and be used by other software, or have your software use ***gasp*** someone else's hardware...

I really want a full version sim, I have the nexstar edition of G2, but i refuse to buy G3 because the adapter for the controller for the nexstar edititon only works with the nexstar edition, i have to buy ANOTHER controller...where does this make sense? To me this is nothing more than a carefully constructed rip-off...

You would think that a community like this, who recognises the need to break down some of the pre-concieved notions of high-costs of this hobby, would not continue to suport complanies who rip you off...

Im truly frustrated, I want a sim, but I can't allow myself to support a company who does what they do...there is no need for the base price of the software, or being forced to buy certain hardware...

That is what makes our economic system great....

You don't have to buy it.

end of story

Vote with your wallet and don't buy.....



but personally I thought it was worth every penny (AFPD that is, G2 was a rip) and it is about volume.... Lots of people buy IL2 or MS flight sim, the market is a bit smaller for R/C flight sims.....

“Too Expensive!"

It has always been expensive to play with special toys. On a positive note, simulation quality is improving.

When producing a product is not profitable enough for the creator, the product will stop being produced. Some creative people have spent lots of time and energy producing things that never get off the ground. Some as history will show, have created things that some enjoy to this day but the creator died in poverty without recognition for their effort. I love the idea of a perfect world where prosperity is shared among everyone and everyone contributes cooperative effort in making life a good healthy experience.

We will always have challenges, nature assures us of that. Unfortunately, we also live with; accidents, ignorance, selfishly motivated hostility, and violence created from living fearfully as intolerance and lack of understanding produce tension, anger, and pain.

What I am saying, without writing an entire book, is this: "Let's reward ourselves and others for the creativity we enjoy and offer."

It is all too easy to go out and kill someone to prove ourselves right! This unfortunate event occurs every day, individually and nationally. I hope all of us eventually choose to live in ways that encourage life, health and happiness rather than abiding in fear, loss, anger, distrust, violence and death.

Remember also, an airplane may cost at least $100.00 to get into the air. I have seen an aircraft destroyed in seconds often on a first or second flight. Simulations help reduce this possibility in regard to lack of good flying skills. They do not however prepare a pilot to diligently perform even a quick pre-flight check of an aircraft, to assure that everything is connected securely, and functioning properly, before launching the aircraft.

P.S. There are some free simulators available as I am fairly certain you know, such as FMS.

This is one area where G3 left a bad taste in my mouth. Had I known that G3 required a registered
and serial numbered (proprietary) controller, I would not have purchased it.

Why?

My controller arrived defective. I couldn't use my own transmitter because the jack on the back
was dislodged/skewed, and I couldn't use the interlink controller itself, because the left gimbal
saddle wasn't snapped-in place internally, causing the centering pin to dislodge because of the
gross misalignment.

I was dead-in-the-water until I fixed it (I wasn't about to send it in for warranty repair/replacement,
because of the time factor), because no other USB interface will work, unless you're a hacker.

They can scream all they want about copy-protection, protecting intellectual property, yadda-
yadda-yadda. In my case, I was an inconvenienced and disgusted customer after paying
300 plus bucks for the sim and all add-ons, only to have their controller keep me from enjoying
it.

It wasn't shipping damage, it was an assembly issue, and others had this same problem.

Protecting intellectual property is noble and good, when customers are not negatively affected,
or inconvenienced.

I'm going to keep G3 because it's a really diverse sim, when you get used to its quirks, but the
proprietary controller issue, in my case, was a negative customer service aspect.

Charles

Hi,
It's all about the value you receive for your money, and with the ones I've bought/used, there's a lot to be desired!
I know when G2 first came out I couldn't believe how poorly the models were rendered. I was used to MSFS models, and they were freeware and light years ahead of what RF was offering. Crude shapes, no see through canopies, poor flight models; everyone knows the problems. When I tried to modify the files, in MSFS you can get into the .air files and tweak the performance, I was told by RF that the program was "locked down" to prevent piracy! I was just amazed that RF cost over 5X what FS costs and has LESS features.
The standard response is that the market for MSFS is much bigger than the RC market. All I can say is bull, the size of the market doesn't excuse poor or sloppy programing. We all know the problems with G3 and I thought that AFPD would be a better, unfortunately not so. I was with my grandsons this weekend practicing take offs and landings with the PT-40. When I dialed in some wind, that's when the fun began! I set the wind to 7 m/s, which, using my fudge factor of 2.3, comes out to about 15 mph. I set the wind at 45 degrees off the runway and the sim could not simulate this scenario! The models just weathercock into the wind, you couldn't do a x-wind take off! When landing, the nosegear would touch down and the plane would pivot right back into the wind! I went back to G2 and at least that simulated the conditions somewhat. There's no excuse why a simulator can't handle x-wind conditions, it's something you encounter at the field on a regular basis. And for this it costs $169! For that kind of money I expect to simulate conditions in the real world! It seems that the emphasis is on 3d stuff at the expense of basic flying in all the sims, although I have very limited experience with Reflex. Maybe newbies don't buy sims to learn to fly and most are sold for 3D. Don't know.
BRG,
Jon

Amen. Yer preaching to the choir, here!

Anybody remember the OLD Ikarus sim? Dirt cheap, and came with a nice cord for several different transmitters, plug into the trainer port. That flight sim was as useful for learning stuff as anything I've seen since (that includes G2 and AFP). The gee-whiz graphics are lost on me, and I don't really see these touted flight physics improvements.

Or so I opine,
Dave Olson

Volume doesnt justify price in a software environment....ever

Volume justifies price in a manufacturing environment...

Its greed that dictates these prices, were it not for greed, my NexSTAR edition USB interface would work with G3, or even G2 --- which is what the nexstar sim is...its sheer greed...

Explain to me why they dont have a software only package for people who have the nexstar sim? They cant, its greed, plain and simple.

I am already working on a USB driver to catch the control inputs from the nexstar adapter, and have been able to get the 4 axis' to work...not the trims yet...

And i plan on making an emulator to simulate the device so that any usb controller will work for their software... (both legal, im not reverse-engineering their software or changing an of their code)

Anyone want to know what drives software piracy? Cost...want a case in point? In taiwan (i think, maybe another asian country) MS was having their biggest priacy problem inthe world with windows, only 1 of 45 copies was legal...so they decided to sell Windows for the equivalant of 35 bux....sales skyrocketed and MS made more money that they would have with the more expensive price...

I wont buy them, but thats not the point...

Here is something for you to ponder...market the product better, sell it in retail stores (comp-usa, bestbuy, target, walmart...etc) ... sales WILL go up ... and as a nice side effect, it would draw more interest to the hobby, increase sales across the board, and in turn, create more volume, and lower costs of the hobby overall...not to mention help to get rid of some of the negative conceptions of the hobby at the same time....and with increased sales in the hobby, and more interest, the software will in turn sell more...

Its a cycle...it takes one person with a little money to risk to get started....but it wont happen, because greed is too much of a driving factor...the same reason that open-source software will never take a good hold in america....for as much as I love this country and wouldnt live anywhere else, we are, above all else, a country driven by GREED...

Greed is not all bad.

At least when greed is described as the desire to have something better than what may be being lived right now.

Greed is bad when no environmental safety is taken or considered, and when the safety and/or health considerations of human beings as a whole are ignored.

Sharing and caring is much better. In the end, I think that if we each asked ourselves,

"If everyone did what I am doing right now, or am about to do, what would the world be like?"

If the outcome is good for everyone including the environment then it is a wonderful thing.
If the outcome hurts others and/or the environment it is not a good thing.

Really?

So all that programming work is free? the only thing that costs money is the CD the print it on and the cord?


So, I spend several years programming..... I should charge the same amoutn of money whether I expect to sell 10 copies or 2.3 million?
Hmmm..... that ain't the way I learnt it

As someone who works in the software industry, no, volume does NOT dictate price...

Value does, this is a game...thats it...calling anything on a PC a sim is a farse, there is no such thing, to simulate anything you need tactile feedback beyond what a pc can offer...

The only reason they charge 150+bux for this, is because they can...i can guarantee you if someone makes one and sells it for 50 bux, these companies we have now will do the same....

There is free software out there now that is good, not great, but good, but free cant beat 150 bux, its true, if somone sees something free, they avoid it unless its been recomended...if it costs money, it must be good, so they buy it...

I have no problem giving a fair price for software....

But what i have a problem with is this...

I have a TC interface created by Great Planes for use with realflight...but it ONLY works with the broken down NexSTAR edition...now i have no prob with the nexstar edition, i wouldnt expect a full peice of software for what i paid for my nextStar...what does bother me, is why i cant upgrade to the FULL software at a reasonable price and not have to pay for another controller....when i dont need one? there is no sense in that, and to engineer this TX cable to not only NOT work with the full version, but to not show up as a usable device in windows so that another app could use it...its rediculous, they went out of there way to ensure that the ONLY thing i can do with this interface is the NexStar edition of realflight....its crap...and to me, very mean spirited...

Now that is an issue with Great Planes and realflight...

and in their (Great Planes) infinite wisdom to have an absolutely stupid upgrade policy...they have lost customers. (me being one...)


Interesting points indeed!

rjm1982....how does volume not dictate price in software? If it takes 100 hours to program something and you charge 10 dollars per program to 100 end users, you make 10 dollars an hour assuming no overhead etc. If you sell 200 copies at the same 10 dollars, you make 20 per hour. The guys who have a larger market can charge less for their software and make the same amount of money...

I personally would have paid 2 or 3 times as much for my simulators as they have saved thousands in crashes over the years...not to mention time saved from not having to build as many planes....luckily the competition in the sim market keeps the prices pretty reasonable.

Unless you are reckless in real life, the sims didnt save you any money...

I hate that argument, yeah, you may have wrecked, you may not have, but the sim didnt save you anything....

What it did do was reinforce your hand-eye coordination....but there are many ways to do that that dont cost 150 bux...

And realistically, i dont see 150 as too high a price for the software/hardware combo...its a little high, considering the "transmitter" is nothing more than a very simple PC joystick...but ok, ill buy it...like i said, what i dont get is the "You can't fly my software with any other controller but mine...so you HAVE to buy mine...." idea...

OK rjm...have it your way. The rest of us who enjoy our sims and get in practive of new maneuvers without crashing can continue to do so...you learn a heck of a lot more when you make mistakes and the mistakes cost you less on a sim. Then we can perform more difficult maneuvers without being reckless at the flying field because we now have the manuever committed to memory in our muscles. Obviously their are different opinions...but I challenge you to post a poll on RCU asking if the people think sims will help you and are worth the money and the majority will say they do...go ahead and post a poll and see if you like.

I never said they arent worth something, i just said their not worth what they want....

And like i said, more importantly than the actuall price, is there greed when it comes to the TX interfaces...

Hmmm...I agree..... I should be able to put an Isuzu cylander head on my Chevy Big block engine....

those greedy car makers......


and darn it...the craftsman garden tractor oil filter won't fit in my wifes saturn.... Greedy Saturn people......

and I can't use Medal of Honor (PC GAME) expansion packs in Call of Duty... Darn...

Boy...there sure is quite a bit of gree out there.....

Those examples are completely different though....

For one, there hasn't been years of development to establish a common driver standard in those situations, as there is for Human interface devices on a pc...

In all of you're 'wonderful' examples there, the difference is a physical hardware difference...and its not so much the designer not wanting you to do those things as it is a side-effect of individual product development...and choosing the best product for the hardware...

Also, there are OEM parts and third-party parts for all of those situtations, again pointing to the fact the the manufacturer doesnt intentionally try to stifle competition...

Good try, but the logic doesn't line up...

Well.... I went back and re-read your first post....

I think you should change the title to "whats up with Real Flight" or similar.....

Why?

I am now using AFPD with which controller.......the RF G2 controller.....seems it can be done and is.....just RF chose not too....
SO I go back to my original post....

Don't buy it



(I still think I can get the Isuzu head on to the Chevy...it would save weight!!)
(Then I could drop the Chevy into a .46 size 3D plane.......Hmmm.....gotta head to the workshop!)

Geez in your world one can't buy a house or a car or food cause they are all over priced.Go to a movie for 8 or 9 dollars why those greedy actors.Dude in this world it is supply and demand.As said before vote with your wallet.If you don't like the price-do not buy it.I for one love my AFPD and think it was worth every penny.Helps me keep the thumbs and brain in sync and gives me hours of enjoyment on these cold winter days.If you can make a sim for less do it and market it.Happy flying.

rjm... I don't mean to be rude, or harsh, but in all honesty, I have a hard time believing you are a software developer with that idea. (that volume does not dictate price)... At least if you are a software developer you seem to be sheltered from the marketing side of things. Our business is one of a fairly limited market (broadcast tv) and some of the software packages we purchase can be as much as $100,000 or more... Why? Because they'll sell maybe 400 copies if they're lucky, not nearly the volume that they would as a mass marketed product, yet they have just as much or more work in the code. They are selling to a possible market of what? 1200 or so broadcast tv stations across the us? When microsoft develops the latest version of windows, they have teams of developers working on it. In the end, it's very expensive, but just THINK of the volume the sell... They are marketing to billions of people. Rockwell sells the RS-Logix package (for programming logic ladders in automation equipment) for over $1000... Why? Because they don't sell nearly the number of copies of it as microsoft sells of the latest version of windows... They still have to pay for their development costs AND make a profit... They are STILL going to make far less profit on their $1000 software than microsoft makes on their windows, even though it's 1/10th the cost... Supply and Demand... Volume dictates pricing... Period... Likewise their aren't nearly the number of people flying RC airplanes as there are that want to give Microsoft Flight Simulator a whirl... Even still your only talking about 1/3 less cost...