Bottom line - the pilot in command is totally responsible for the safe operation of the flight. From that perspective, the responsibility lies with the guy at the controls. Having said that, there may well have been additional contributing factors.... The fortunate outcome was that nobody (as far as we know) was injured.

I can't recall ever seeing that maneuver at any T bird show that I have seen. They never seem (IMHO) to put themselves in high risk situations like that.. I'd be very interested to read what the accident investigators determine....

Thanks Thud_Driver, thats very interesting. So I guess he could have pulled the cord at the bottom of the loop then... Too bad this didn't happen at a football game, that way it could have actually made some headlines. I've heard nothing of the accident before reading this thread. Unfortunately, here in Oklahoma the only thing in the news is OU football it seems... And I don't recall anything about it on CNN either.

Best Regards to all

Pete:

All the press reports seem to agree in that it happened as #6-opposing solo was on his initial climbout after takeoff.....But, I haven't seen any video that confirms those reports...

Tom

Can't find a thing on any of the online news services. Found a short blurb on the Air Force Times Web site: http://www.airforcetimes.com/story.p...25-2216271.php Doesn't say anything new.

This is from the Thunderbirds web site:

"Following the Diamond, the Lead Solo, Maj. Todd Canterbury, clears the runway and snaps an immediate 360-degree aileron roll. Finally, the Opposing Solo, Capt. Chris Stricklin, powers his aircraft nearly straight up; reversing direction, he flies back past the crowd all within the length of the runway in a maneuver called the Split-S."

just found out a little more info on the crash. initial crash investigations are saying that after the initial climb and roll to inverted the engine failed. These are just initial reports.
The accident happened right after takeoff. It looked to me from the video that at the top of the initial climb after takeoff right after the roll that all the energy was bled off the aircraft which would be an indication of engine failure or a total reduction of power, but at that point in the flight I cant logically think of why the power would have been brought to idle that quickly that the airplane bled off all that energy so quickly. I guess time will tell on this one. If it did quick at the top of climb, my hats off to the pilot!!!!!!
OUSTANDING JOB...........

Pete

Yes Pete....that's what bugged me from the start.....why did he start the roll so low, and why was he so slow over the top?? And why wasn't he full burner on the way down? Power problem still has to be an issue...

Living only 18 miles from the end of the runway at Oshkosh, I have seen many F-16's jocks show their stuff during EAA week for the past 20+ years....I also have watched the Truax Field Squadron do their gunnery and bomb practice at a range about 90 minutes from here....Petenwell Lake region....also have seen many T-Bird shows, and never saw this maneuver done quite like the Captain did it this time....

As far as the T-Bird website description of the maneuvers: The military seems to lump all 1/2 rolls--1/2 - 5/8 loops into one category of Split-S, regardless of attitude prior to the roll....rolling in on the target, I guess...

FAI/Civa breaks them down for IAC and IMAC competition into 1/2 roll/1/2 loop from horizontal flight=Split S or 1/2 of a vertical S, 1/2 roll/1/2loop from a 45 upline=Reverse Cuban 8...actually is 5/8 loop if you recover to horizontal flight and not a 45 deg downline, and 1/2 roll/1/2 loop from a vertical line=humpty bump......looks like he was at about 1/2 between a Reverse Cuban and a Pull Humpty....

Tom

Well, Captain Cronkhite, you sure have "qualified" yourself as, well, an observer.......It seems to me that your exposure to the NTSB as a liaison or whatever you were, should have clued you into the first rule about accidents. Specifically, NEVER JUMP TO CONCLUSIONS. We...that is, none of us have any idea what happened...so just blame the pilot...Tell me doug were you with L.A. Center before or after the strike?

Pete, you are right on with yor thoughts........

Really irritated,


John

Thanks Pete for telling it like it is. Just like we don't like "real" pilots telling us how easy it would be to fly RC planes, we wouldn't exactly know how to fly full scale planes. The Thunderbirds have the Pratt 220's that have been responsible for NUMEROUS lost aircraft within the last year ( I believe 6 and counting) at Luke AFB and I'm sure you'll see the same in this case. There have been many engine stalls with these motors of varying degrees of severity and obviously this is the worse. The Thunderbird 220's are even beefed up on the engine case to take the rigors of a show year but day after day of max climbs will still take their toll. As everyone has noticed he didnt put it on the runway, he didnt put it in the crowd, and HE did try to direct the plane as clear as possible. Tom Antlfinger I believe is right as he may have thought it was control failure as Im sure he wasnt watching his engine instruments, which are far right under the eyebrow panel, while he NEEDS to ensure his altitude during the maneuver (head up watching altitude and attitude on the HUD). They do this maneuver EVERYTIME they leave homestation to practice over Indian Springs and many times Ive thought it would seem if he lost power this would happen, unfortunately it did. Just technology biting us again.

Just shot this photo of #6 on 06-29-03. Glad he made it out!

I have a little gallery from the airshow I saw, at Elmendorf AFB (Anchorage, Ak) at http://homepage.mac.com/mikejames/ar...icthunder.html

Imagine that!! A center controller speculating pilot error from watching a video.!![:'(] I can't tell you how many controller errors I've survived in and out of LAX,SNA,and ONT,just in the last few years.If you hated to say it why did you. Thank God he's OK,and the uninformed speculation,or suggestion that it was pilot error is deplorable!![sm=punching.gif]
Erik

John,

I was there after the strike. You're right about not jumping to conclusions, and I never said it was absolutely pilot error, but that IS what it looks like to me from 1st glance. Reread what I wrote. I never said "He screwed up.. end of story" or anything similar. I was giving my opinion.

Simple. Leaving the aircraft in full burner on the way down causes the aircraft to accelerate rapidly, thereby increasing the radius of the 5/8th loop requiring more altitude to complete the maneuver.
Pete.. while I haven't been in a jet aircraft such as this, I DO have a lot of time in aerobatic airplanes, somewhere close to 1300 hours overall with at least 700 of that aerobatic time. If I remember correctly the F-16C has a quadruple redundant FBW FCS.

Just as I cannot say it was pilot error for sure, none of you can say it was engine failure for sure. I'm not brow beating you over your opinions, I'd request you do the same. I am entitled to my opinion, and have a fair amount of experience backing it up. I would like nothing more than to be wrong, and ultimately it doesn't matter much either way. The pilot got out, nobody was hurt, and the Thunderbirds will fly another day.

You guys need to have your eyes checked. This one was definitely pilot error no doubt about that!! Gees!!! Anyone can clearly see from the video that the pilot chopped the throttle on the upline, then proceded to pour himself a cup of coffee before he executed the spilt-s. THEN... instead of banking hard left he banked hard right. If he would have gone to the right he would have had more altitude in conjunction with cramming hard left rudder and applying the speed-brakes and full down elevator he would have been able to slow that F-16 to a crawl and basically walk it in for a 3-point landing......thats what I would have done. But....If he would have only waited to add the creamer AFTER completing the maneuver he would have been able to save it. THE VIDEO CLEARLY SHOWS ALL HIS MISTAKES. OMG some of you are SO quick to judge,....I swear.

As far as being scripted and practiced....Yeah right. I can tell you from personal experience that they fly from the hip. They NEVER practice and they DONT have routines that they do. They all just do whatever they feel like doing next...DUH!!!!!


hehe

Doug:

Ah! A fellow full scale aerobatic nut!

I also had 500+ hours in my Pitts S1-T and think I understand the mechanics of a Split-S, Loop, and Reverse Cuban......In all my practice time, if I ever found myself too low coming out the backside of a looping maneuver, I NEVER cut the power.....it's gobs of power that saves your butt......Why intentionally get behind the power curve and get whacked by a G-stall, when the ground starts lurking and one instinctively starts sucking the stick into one's gut or slamming the stick into the panel doing an English Bunt.....

At EAA, the 15's & 16's, ANG and AF planes showing off, often come across the field low and slow, down and dirty, and then punch it up into a burner climb to 10,000.....I am always amazed at how fast they can transition from 150kts down and dirty to a vertical climb on burner....it like right now....I mean it's lite the burner(s), rotate to vertical, suck up the gear and go!
Still wonder why the #6 didn't do that when he started coming down like the shuttle.....did he freeze, or did the motor or control's freeze??

As I have lost several IAC friends to "Mush Accidents" coming out of looping maneuvers, and witnessed 2 professional airshow pilots do themselves in at EAA on backside mushes, I always respected the apparently simple maneuver when at low altitudes......
Randy Gagne(now deceased), my longtime aerobatic instructor used to pound into his students page 51 in Eric Muller's aerobatic monograph "FLIGHT UNLIMITED"....title "The stall after 270 on looping maneuvers"......Eric notes "There is an interesting phenomenon in flying, which is that the earth's gravitational pull is able to increase the aircraft's angle of attack without any change of power or stick position by the pilot. This is precisely what happens after 270 deg in a looping maneuver, if by that time you are very near the critical angle of attack: the aircraft will stall as if by magic"....Eric provided a schematic of the vectors acting on the plane between 270 and pull out if you are interested...

So whether you are flying a BobCat or Pitts and get mushy on the pull after 270 or are coming down like a greased man-hole cover in a Viper, EASY on the stick passing the 270 and kick the burner......

So it all comes back to: Did that Captain have power and control integrity coming out of the backside of the turnaround 1/2 roll, 5/8 loop on a steep upline or not?
Until those facts are known with certainty, all of your posts and mine are nothing but speculation based on our own fantasies of what really happened.

Regards,

Tom

Boy, you sure know your stuff dont you? Ill bet that you were the second person in that plane that we didnt see eject. Wow to have lived that first-hand must have been quite a ride! WOW!!! Thanks for clearing up any misconceptions that we all have.

.....And you work for who?????

Man AMA234, What are you on. There are programs that may help. I think you need your forehead thumped.

David Hudson

Pete (PJ Faller(
You must remember that with 10,000 hours on fast jets you do not have sufficient real world experience to understand your subject ! I was told by one erudite and frequent contributor to RCU (who is not an aviation professional) that I did not have the "real world experience" to try and get to the bottom of some control problems on a popular model jet even with my 15,000 hours on jets which include 2,500 in the RAF and holding a CFS "A" category as a jet QFI, including some experience on low level jet aerobatics, so with "only " 10,000 hours what chance do you have ????? No, sir, only if you have 400 flights on a particular MODEL are you qualified to have a sound grasp of jet performance !!!

But seriously, and as you surely know, anyone involved in accident investigation such as the highly professional people at the UK AAIB and NTSB will tell you that jumping to conclusions of pilot error, whatever the initial evidence, is not the way to get to what matters, the REAL cause of an accident. Those, particularly those without any real world experience, who think they can identify the cause of an accident simply from watching a video are living in a fool's paradise.

There's a lot of really good stuff on RCU but an awful lot of rubbish from some writers. So, hear, hear to your contibution !

Yours, David Gladwin

I am by NO MEANS an expert on crash investigations, however if you simply look at the video, it APPEARS that the engine quit on the upline. (according to the wittnesses some said that the plane appeared to have lost power). Then he rolled the plane over at the top of the his climb right before he stalled ( you can see what looks like the plane slowing down), then tucked it under and bailed. In my own UNEDUCATED AND HUMBLE OPINION without being in the pilot seat. I would say thats what happened. But again I can only speculate that he had engine problems. I would dare to think that a pilot of his caliber would make such a mistake on a simple maneuver like that. With all the hours that they spend living and breathing those routeins, I find it hard to believe that they would ignore their altimeter. These guys are among the very best of ANY pilots in the world and to come out and say that it was "definitely pilot error" without having any facts is absurd.

ama234


p.s. Mr. Hudson if you think youre man enough to thump me why dont you come and pay me a visit! I see were in the same state, name the place and time and pack a lunch you David P. Coultrain.

Does anyone know the orientation of the aircraft with relationship to the crowd when the " PROBLEM " and I will leave it at that....Happened? I cant tell from the video but it looks like he might have been pointed towards the crowd when he rolled. The MSNBC video is the only one where they show the crowd at the end, and from its point of view it looks like he might have rolled and pulled through to get away from the crowd. Does anyone know for sure?

Pete

You guys remember TopGun2Mo (a jet dude here)? He lives two doors away. The wife and I went over there for a little B-day celebration for his one year old yesterday. His brother in-law was in town. He flies F-16s for the Air National Guard. I asked him about the Thunderbird crash. He said that he had hear, through the fighter jock's grapevine, that it was an engine problem just after he rolled inverted at the top of the split S. Now this ain't 100% positive, but it sure looks bad for you guys that said it was not an engine failure. BTW, he also told me that he was flying right behind a buddy on Monday when he had an engine issue (a fire) and had to punch out. Seems to be a lot of engine related F-16 issues.