Another lithium polymer fire
03-27-2014, 08:05 PM
#52
How about one of these to store them in. This thing is stainless steel lined. Use it without sealing it with the lid:
http://go-armynavy.com/military-surp...der-boxes.html
http://go-armynavy.com/military-surp...der-boxes.html
03-27-2014, 08:10 PM
#53
So sorry to hear this David!!! really really sucks
I'm an all electric flyer and have tons of lipos. I've been doing all lipo since 2007 (rc for 30 years) and have had no issues... but with that said I was lucky enough to see a lipo fire at the field early on.
It was only a 4s 5000 mah pack that went off after a really hard landing that ripped out the gear on a fellow members plane. The fire from the plane was intense, smoke looked like a military smoke grenade.
It was a huge eye opener for me, at that time I had old packs laying all around my shop... it was at that point I cleared out old packs.
Started taking notes on packs I.R. per cell, balance, put all my packs in storage charge when not in use. It has been shown that when a pack is in storage charge or down to 3.7 the fire potential is much less than a fully charged pack at 4.2 per cell. I put them all in lipos bags and place them in vented ammo cans...
When I have packs that are showing bad balance, high IR, or any damage they go right away.....
With the very fast charge rates these days and even at 2c it's only 25 minutes I now only charge at the field outdoors... if I do charge at home it's on the side yard.
For now my packs are still in my shop, but the next step is to put a small refrigerator in my shed with an inline thermostat to keep the fridge at 60 degrees year round.
This will allow me to pull them out and use them right away and not have to wait for them to come up to temp and get them out of my shop
These packs must be treated with great respect their fire potential is amazing and the smoke they make is toxic (stay up wind)
I love electric power for me it's the only way I will do this hobby but I now know what the danger is and do all I can to keep safe
So sorry to hear about this..... thanks for posting as we all learn from it
I'm an all electric flyer and have tons of lipos. I've been doing all lipo since 2007 (rc for 30 years) and have had no issues... but with that said I was lucky enough to see a lipo fire at the field early on.
It was only a 4s 5000 mah pack that went off after a really hard landing that ripped out the gear on a fellow members plane. The fire from the plane was intense, smoke looked like a military smoke grenade.
It was a huge eye opener for me, at that time I had old packs laying all around my shop... it was at that point I cleared out old packs.
Started taking notes on packs I.R. per cell, balance, put all my packs in storage charge when not in use. It has been shown that when a pack is in storage charge or down to 3.7 the fire potential is much less than a fully charged pack at 4.2 per cell. I put them all in lipos bags and place them in vented ammo cans...
When I have packs that are showing bad balance, high IR, or any damage they go right away.....
With the very fast charge rates these days and even at 2c it's only 25 minutes I now only charge at the field outdoors... if I do charge at home it's on the side yard.
For now my packs are still in my shop, but the next step is to put a small refrigerator in my shed with an inline thermostat to keep the fridge at 60 degrees year round.
This will allow me to pull them out and use them right away and not have to wait for them to come up to temp and get them out of my shop
These packs must be treated with great respect their fire potential is amazing and the smoke they make is toxic (stay up wind)
I love electric power for me it's the only way I will do this hobby but I now know what the danger is and do all I can to keep safe
So sorry to hear about this..... thanks for posting as we all learn from it
03-27-2014, 08:11 PM
#54
Dave,
Sorry for your loss and glad no body got hurt!!
Andy,
Remember you had a LIPO pack pop in your F-4 at JOK last year on the flight line. I had a LIPO pack sitting in a plane for a few months, Me & Barry were going to go fly and I needed a battery so I was going to steal the pack from my P-38. As soon as I opened the battery hatch, the pack popped and went nuclear. Thankfully it happened while I was home and I didn't come home to a smoking home. I threw it out on the drive and dug a hole and buried it. It was still smoking in the ground after we got back from a day of flying. I then proceeded to get rid of all my LIPO packs and only use LIFE or Nimh packs.
Dirk
Sorry for your loss and glad no body got hurt!!
Andy,
Remember you had a LIPO pack pop in your F-4 at JOK last year on the flight line. I had a LIPO pack sitting in a plane for a few months, Me & Barry were going to go fly and I needed a battery so I was going to steal the pack from my P-38. As soon as I opened the battery hatch, the pack popped and went nuclear. Thankfully it happened while I was home and I didn't come home to a smoking home. I threw it out on the drive and dug a hole and buried it. It was still smoking in the ground after we got back from a day of flying. I then proceeded to get rid of all my LIPO packs and only use LIFE or Nimh packs.
Dirk
Last edited by AndyAndrews; 03-27-2014 at 08:14 PM.
03-27-2014, 08:13 PM
#55
03-27-2014, 09:13 PM
#58
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Not sure where you heard this, but not as cargo. These batteries are Cargo Aircraft Only (CAO). As a cargo pilot, I am expendable and can carry these by the thousands on my 747, but not allowed on passenger planes. BTW, two Boeing 747-400's (UPS and Asiana) have been lost due to battery fires in the cargo compartment. We figure we have 17 minutes to get it on the ground, or in the ocean. This is about the only situation, where I would be putting a four engine plane in the water.
03-27-2014, 09:23 PM
#59
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Sorry but I misunderstood your first post. I thought you plugged them in to charge and left them. If I have freshly charged batteries and I have to leave right away, I place them in the oven temporarily while I'm away. I live alone so no chance someone will crank the oven on with the batteries inside. The warning on the packages I've read mentions to keep a close eye on freshly charged batteries 15 to 30 minutes after being charged. I saw a YouTube vid of a guy who lost an entire garage full of planes and a Mercedes Roadster because of a lipo battery fire.
Guys at my LHS claim LiFe batteries are more safe compared to these lipos.
Guys at my LHS claim LiFe batteries are more safe compared to these lipos.
Last edited by SushiHunter; 03-27-2014 at 09:39 PM.
03-27-2014, 09:35 PM
#61
Another thing to note about lipos is the importance to discharge the batteries between flying sessions. By not discharging, the batteries develop internal resistance and are prone to being volatile even when sitting. The discharge that occurs through flying is typically not enough to get the pack down to its nominal voltage. You need to discharge the packs through a "storage mode" via your charger.
03-27-2014, 09:40 PM
#62
Not sure where you heard this, but not as cargo. These batteries are Cargo Aircraft Only (CAO). As a cargo pilot, I am expendable and can carry these by the thousands on my 747, but not allowed on passenger planes. BTW, two Boeing 747-400's (UPS and Asiana) have been lost due to battery fires in the cargo compartment. We figure we have 17 minutes to get it on the ground, or in the ocean. This is about the only situation, where I would be putting a four engine plane in the water.
Edit: First result in Google. http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2014/03/2...wn-flight-370/
Last edited by robwiljas; 03-27-2014 at 09:42 PM.
03-27-2014, 09:40 PM
#63
Senior Member
Decades ago, Sears sold a "lantern" type light that had, I believe, NiCads. They were unfused.
After several shorted out, they were recalled, due to the possibility of a fire.
Later, NiCads started being made with resettable internal fuses.
After several shorted out, they were recalled, due to the possibility of a fire.
Later, NiCads started being made with resettable internal fuses.
03-27-2014, 10:16 PM
#66
Thanks for (yet another) warning.
Now I'm confused. If I was to store these things together in a steel container (say a large toolbox with a non-sealed lid) & one caught fire wouldn't this ignite the rest & make a much larger fire?
It's not really practical to store them individually so what's the answer?
Not trying to be clever, just looking for ideas to safely store them. - John.
Now I'm confused. If I was to store these things together in a steel container (say a large toolbox with a non-sealed lid) & one caught fire wouldn't this ignite the rest & make a much larger fire?
It's not really practical to store them individually so what's the answer?
Not trying to be clever, just looking for ideas to safely store them. - John.
03-27-2014, 10:28 PM
#67
Another thing to note about lipos is the importance to discharge the batteries between flying sessions. By not discharging, the batteries develop internal resistance and are prone to being volatile even when sitting. The discharge that occurs through flying is typically not enough to get the pack down to its nominal voltage. You need to discharge the packs through a "storage mode" via your charger.
03-27-2014, 10:31 PM
#68
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Agree, I think discharge/storage is the key. This is a good reminder for all of us and sorry for the loss David. I've been using individual compartments of cinder blocks to store and isolate.
03-27-2014, 11:55 PM
#69
David
By any chance was the Li-Po cool/cold when you started charging and warm in the Rv?
Temperature has a big affect on Li-Po cells, not just performance. If you charge the pack when its cold and then leave it to get warmer the voltage will continue to rise and this could cause this. There are many factors that influence Li-Po "melt downs" we just need to understand them fully. I have hundreds of packs and have never been unlucky like David, I do keep the low cost Li-Po bags/sacks in the building and in the situation David had would place the pack in a bag as even after charging shows complete the chemical process continues. I've done plenty of testing on Li-Po bags and they will deal with fairly big packs if properly sealed, I use the Graupner charge case Paul008 shows as its a 1" thick ceramic walled case made for the job and has been proved up to the job. I will state that I only actually charge in it when I'm likely to be away from the charger/pack for even short times. I've never had a pack go up and I have some 14s set ups that are big number energy storage units! If you are with them you generally get a sweet smell as they start to gas and noise from the bags expanding, my experience is it takes and while and you can deal with it.
Biggest thing is no one was hurt and we can all learn from your loss, its a timely reminder of what can happen. There are plenty of internet articles from leading Li-Po manufacturers explaining some of the pit falls.
Everything we are surrounded by has Li-Po's phones, lap tops etc, these are no different, its just the process of dealing with charging etc is taken away from us and like the excellent PowerBox batteries they are housed in hard plastic cases.
Dave W
By any chance was the Li-Po cool/cold when you started charging and warm in the Rv?
Temperature has a big affect on Li-Po cells, not just performance. If you charge the pack when its cold and then leave it to get warmer the voltage will continue to rise and this could cause this. There are many factors that influence Li-Po "melt downs" we just need to understand them fully. I have hundreds of packs and have never been unlucky like David, I do keep the low cost Li-Po bags/sacks in the building and in the situation David had would place the pack in a bag as even after charging shows complete the chemical process continues. I've done plenty of testing on Li-Po bags and they will deal with fairly big packs if properly sealed, I use the Graupner charge case Paul008 shows as its a 1" thick ceramic walled case made for the job and has been proved up to the job. I will state that I only actually charge in it when I'm likely to be away from the charger/pack for even short times. I've never had a pack go up and I have some 14s set ups that are big number energy storage units! If you are with them you generally get a sweet smell as they start to gas and noise from the bags expanding, my experience is it takes and while and you can deal with it.
Biggest thing is no one was hurt and we can all learn from your loss, its a timely reminder of what can happen. There are plenty of internet articles from leading Li-Po manufacturers explaining some of the pit falls.
Everything we are surrounded by has Li-Po's phones, lap tops etc, these are no different, its just the process of dealing with charging etc is taken away from us and like the excellent PowerBox batteries they are housed in hard plastic cases.
Dave W
03-28-2014, 03:50 AM
#72
Sorry to see that happen to you. I've got one of those charging bags - doesn't sound like it was a good investment if fire safes don;t evne work.
Someone recently asked about balancing lipos. I'm not saying you don't but this is one reason to. An unbalanced lipo can wind up having one cell negative and when you charge it all heck breaks loose.
Someone recently asked about balancing lipos. I'm not saying you don't but this is one reason to. An unbalanced lipo can wind up having one cell negative and when you charge it all heck breaks loose.
03-28-2014, 04:33 AM
#73
If these things will cook off at will, even if in a vented ammo can, lipo bag, you name it, I'm starting to not even want them in the garage or shop. Even if the fire is contained, the smoke is bad, bad juju. As has been said, it is toxic, and will cause unbelievable corrosion.
Problem is, I have some fun EDF's and prop-jobs, and I don't think the other battery types, even other lithium chemistries, pack the power-to-weight of a lipo.