3D printing a turbine engine
#1
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3D printing a turbine engine
Very interesting.. amazing technology and wonder what will happen when this machines will be able to copy thenselves!
http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/1...ed-jet-engine/
http://www.mmsonline.com/blog/post/v...-manufacturing
http://3dprintingindustry.com/2014/1...ed-jet-engine/
http://www.mmsonline.com/blog/post/v...-manufacturing
Last edited by erbroens; 11-17-2014 at 02:18 PM.
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Nice Enrique!!
3D printing is an great idea, and, as i said yesterday, my first job on this printer, is doing 2 new "callers" !!! but, with bionic yes too!!! to see better if my landing gear down ok !!!
bst rgds my friend.
waiting for you in our field
jose
3D printing is an great idea, and, as i said yesterday, my first job on this printer, is doing 2 new "callers" !!! but, with bionic yes too!!! to see better if my landing gear down ok !!!
bst rgds my friend.
waiting for you in our field
jose
#5
That's fantastic, I thought 3D printing was only possible in plastic/polymers not in exotic alloys!. Now we all realise that achieving 33.000 rpm is pitiful but its early days. Its taken about 15years for our commercial 112mm dia turbines to be developed from 19lbs to 45lbs+ thrust in the same size can. Now with rapid prototyping were will it all end, perhaps readily available multi stage axil flow and compact turbo fans, who knows . I realise that turbines wont be turned out like sausages any time soon, the investment on these hi-tech 3D printers is vast but not so long ago 2D colour printers were silly expensive, now you can pick one up for just a few quid at the supermarket!. Technology seems to be progressing at a exponential rate, those flying cars may be just round the corner, I can hardly wait.
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Mark
I thought rather differently to you. With all the backing of GE the best they can achieve with a 17 year old design is an engine that looks hardly able to self sustain. I would rather say it was pathetic.
The technology of direct metal sintering is not new technology. What is new is combining the 3d printing and metal sintering. The metals available have included stainless steel and Inconel for some time. I had some sintered parts made for my Sprite NGV mould 5 years ago the material I chose was bronze. The cost of sintering is very high and has not come down over the last 5 years, I had a quote recently. It is not a cost effective way to make turbine parts. The main snag is that the finish is a rough finish and needs polishing or machining.
People get very carried away with the technology but it will only be really useful when the costs come right down similar to machining parts and the quality of the surface finish improves.
John
I thought rather differently to you. With all the backing of GE the best they can achieve with a 17 year old design is an engine that looks hardly able to self sustain. I would rather say it was pathetic.
The technology of direct metal sintering is not new technology. What is new is combining the 3d printing and metal sintering. The metals available have included stainless steel and Inconel for some time. I had some sintered parts made for my Sprite NGV mould 5 years ago the material I chose was bronze. The cost of sintering is very high and has not come down over the last 5 years, I had a quote recently. It is not a cost effective way to make turbine parts. The main snag is that the finish is a rough finish and needs polishing or machining.
People get very carried away with the technology but it will only be really useful when the costs come right down similar to machining parts and the quality of the surface finish improves.
John
#7
Hi John
I'm not from an engineering background like your self so I think like many this 3D ability in metals was a surprise. Your right a company like GE with there resources should be able to archive more and I'm sure they will but it was there first two runs!. I sincerely hope using technology like this allows prototyping costs to come down sooner than later allowing development of clever and innovative designs, not just from big company's but from guys with good ideas in sheds and workshops up and down the country. Imagine having one at your disposal and how quickly your ideas could be developed. One thing for sure if we don't re-adopt a "can do attitude" the same as I have experienced in other parts of the world we will drop even further down the industrial ladder.
I'm not from an engineering background like your self so I think like many this 3D ability in metals was a surprise. Your right a company like GE with there resources should be able to archive more and I'm sure they will but it was there first two runs!. I sincerely hope using technology like this allows prototyping costs to come down sooner than later allowing development of clever and innovative designs, not just from big company's but from guys with good ideas in sheds and workshops up and down the country. Imagine having one at your disposal and how quickly your ideas could be developed. One thing for sure if we don't re-adopt a "can do attitude" the same as I have experienced in other parts of the world we will drop even further down the industrial ladder.
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Mark
Like you I hoped that this would provide a cheap method of rapid development using solid models. I draw parts in Solidworks and it is simple to generate a stl file that these processes can use. The cost is just crazy. Recently one firm I asked for a quote for a mild steel part that was 50mm X50mm in a complicated shape with splines and 2 helixes cut into it. One firm quoted a minimum cost of £1,000 for one part. Another quoted £500 and after moaning to them about unrealistic pricing I had to spend 2 days in my workshop using my lathe and CNC mill making the part. It seemed to me that a reasonable cost would be £50-100 by sintering. For companies like GE and BAE systems they do not have to make items to a low cost base like small engineering businesses.
I guess the capital cost for the equipment needed is very high and hence the high pricing. Also the metal powder used is expensive.
John
Like you I hoped that this would provide a cheap method of rapid development using solid models. I draw parts in Solidworks and it is simple to generate a stl file that these processes can use. The cost is just crazy. Recently one firm I asked for a quote for a mild steel part that was 50mm X50mm in a complicated shape with splines and 2 helixes cut into it. One firm quoted a minimum cost of £1,000 for one part. Another quoted £500 and after moaning to them about unrealistic pricing I had to spend 2 days in my workshop using my lathe and CNC mill making the part. It seemed to me that a reasonable cost would be £50-100 by sintering. For companies like GE and BAE systems they do not have to make items to a low cost base like small engineering businesses.
I guess the capital cost for the equipment needed is very high and hence the high pricing. Also the metal powder used is expensive.
John
Last edited by Jgwright; 11-18-2014 at 07:27 AM.
#10
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I can´t imagine a limit for development in this area. Suppose we will soon share in a email some airplane/landing gear/engine design etc.. and then we are going to print the stuff we like in a local printing shop, and probably the same for tools, cars, (some will want to print a flying one, haha) etc..and this is already amazing. And inevitably, probably at the critical point in wich a highly capable machine will be able to copy itself, everything we knew about how to earn a living will change.
Harry, very cool, I also read somewhere that Lockheed Martin is printing complete assembled airplane modules, including electronics/mechanisms/structural parts that "glued" together make a operational aircraft.. and with a incredible strenght to weight ratio, as this modules can be printed in a way that would be impossible to assemble with nut and bolts.. I bet the engineers at the skunk works print their own smartphones in that printer in their spare time...
Jose, you and the guys at SJRP are the best, hope to make the long drive there as soon as I can, and hope you will be able to visit us too!
p.s. maybe you can print a caller like this one.. it is perfect because it is quiet and has a gifted eyesight!
Harry, very cool, I also read somewhere that Lockheed Martin is printing complete assembled airplane modules, including electronics/mechanisms/structural parts that "glued" together make a operational aircraft.. and with a incredible strenght to weight ratio, as this modules can be printed in a way that would be impossible to assemble with nut and bolts.. I bet the engineers at the skunk works print their own smartphones in that printer in their spare time...
Jose, you and the guys at SJRP are the best, hope to make the long drive there as soon as I can, and hope you will be able to visit us too!
p.s. maybe you can print a caller like this one.. it is perfect because it is quiet and has a gifted eyesight!
Last edited by erbroens; 11-18-2014 at 07:25 AM.
#11
Mark
I thought rather differently to you. With all the backing of GE the best they can achieve with a 17 year old design is an engine that looks hardly able to self sustain. I would rather say it was pathetic.
The technology of direct metal sintering is not new technology. What is new is combining the 3d printing and metal sintering. The metals available have included stainless steel and Inconel for some time. I had some sintered parts made for my Sprite NGV mould 5 years ago the material I chose was bronze. The cost of sintering is very high and has not come down over the last 5 years, I had a quote recently. It is not a cost effective way to make turbine parts. The main snag is that the finish is a rough finish and needs polishing or machining.
People get very carried away with the technology but it will only be really useful when the costs come right down similar to machining parts and the quality of the surface finish improves.
John
I thought rather differently to you. With all the backing of GE the best they can achieve with a 17 year old design is an engine that looks hardly able to self sustain. I would rather say it was pathetic.
The technology of direct metal sintering is not new technology. What is new is combining the 3d printing and metal sintering. The metals available have included stainless steel and Inconel for some time. I had some sintered parts made for my Sprite NGV mould 5 years ago the material I chose was bronze. The cost of sintering is very high and has not come down over the last 5 years, I had a quote recently. It is not a cost effective way to make turbine parts. The main snag is that the finish is a rough finish and needs polishing or machining.
People get very carried away with the technology but it will only be really useful when the costs come right down similar to machining parts and the quality of the surface finish improves.
John
They have a 3D printer capable of doing metal and they still go for an old design. Many parts still looked machined.
Maybe GE developing the Delaying turbine? haha
Last edited by Henke Torphammar; 11-18-2014 at 08:16 AM.
#12
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Well, at least to me seems logical to not put the latest GE engine design in a public video just for demonstrating heat resistant 3D printing capability.
And about being carried away, well... is hard to not be, by just watching the sheer beauty of what this technology is already capable of, and wonder what will be capable in a few years. Right now, It is simply not possible to CNC a superb structural design like this. (by the way, is a car chassis) Try to imagine how a combustion chamber may look like with this machines. (!)
And about being carried away, well... is hard to not be, by just watching the sheer beauty of what this technology is already capable of, and wonder what will be capable in a few years. Right now, It is simply not possible to CNC a superb structural design like this. (by the way, is a car chassis) Try to imagine how a combustion chamber may look like with this machines. (!)
#13
(Boy this has to potential to run off in a tangent..)
#14
Mark
Like you I hoped that this would provide a cheap method of rapid development using solid models. I draw parts in Solidworks and it is simple to generate a stl file that these processes can use. The cost is just crazy. Recently one firm I asked for a quote for a mild steel part that was 50mm X50mm in a complicated shape with splines and 2 helixes cut into it. One firm quoted a minimum cost of £1,000 for one part. Another quoted £500 and after moaning to them about unrealistic pricing I had to spend 2 days in my workshop using my lathe and CNC mill making the part. It seemed to me that a reasonable cost would be £50-100 by sintering. For companies like GE and BAE systems they do not have to make items to a low cost base like small engineering businesses.
I guess the capital cost for the equipment needed is very high and hence the high pricing. Also the metal powder used is expensive.
John
Like you I hoped that this would provide a cheap method of rapid development using solid models. I draw parts in Solidworks and it is simple to generate a stl file that these processes can use. The cost is just crazy. Recently one firm I asked for a quote for a mild steel part that was 50mm X50mm in a complicated shape with splines and 2 helixes cut into it. One firm quoted a minimum cost of £1,000 for one part. Another quoted £500 and after moaning to them about unrealistic pricing I had to spend 2 days in my workshop using my lathe and CNC mill making the part. It seemed to me that a reasonable cost would be £50-100 by sintering. For companies like GE and BAE systems they do not have to make items to a low cost base like small engineering businesses.
I guess the capital cost for the equipment needed is very high and hence the high pricing. Also the metal powder used is expensive.
John
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Mike
As I am retired my labour costs nothing. The main problem was that this item was really too large for my small 4th axis. The part is a dog clutch for a WW2 turbine starter. The cost of making this one part by direct metal sintering would be more than the price the whole starter. As it is I made the part for the cost of some scrap mild steel. It is just so dissapointing that the cost of this new technology is so expensive and does not seem to be getting cheaper. I needed other parts like springs made and was very pleased to get these made locally at a sensible price.
John
As I am retired my labour costs nothing. The main problem was that this item was really too large for my small 4th axis. The part is a dog clutch for a WW2 turbine starter. The cost of making this one part by direct metal sintering would be more than the price the whole starter. As it is I made the part for the cost of some scrap mild steel. It is just so dissapointing that the cost of this new technology is so expensive and does not seem to be getting cheaper. I needed other parts like springs made and was very pleased to get these made locally at a sensible price.
John
#17
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John,
You are right, on the surface this seems very elementary for GE, but this just may have been a 'proof of concept' for them; and if so, it was a good one. If it was an attempt for a top-shelve unit, they failed badly, but I suspect it is the former.
I just wish they would have shown more of the process and which parts were actually printed. It also appears they only ran the engine on propane (not sure though), and only running to 33K (idle) would support that if there wasn't any lubrication for the bearings. In any case, for someone not involved in the 3D printing field like myself, it is still amazing to see what is possible even it is "elementary" at the moment.
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John,
I just wish they would have shown more of the process and which parts were actually printed. It also appears they only ran the engine on propane (not sure though), and only running to 33K (idle) would support that if there wasn't any lubrication for the bearings. In any case, for someone not involved in the 3D printing field like myself, it is still amazing to see what is possible even it is "elementary" at the moment.
I just wish they would have shown more of the process and which parts were actually printed. It also appears they only ran the engine on propane (not sure though), and only running to 33K (idle) would support that if there wasn't any lubrication for the bearings. In any case, for someone not involved in the 3D printing field like myself, it is still amazing to see what is possible even it is "elementary" at the moment.
Yes I thought this was Propane only and there was no sign of lubrication. Also the bearings cannot have been printed as the surface finish of the parts would not be anywhere near good enough. As you say it would have been interesting to see more of what was made from the printer and what they had to do to the parts to be able to use them.
John
#19
I can´t imagine a limit for development in this area. Suppose we will soon share in a email some airplane/landing gear/engine design etc.. and then we are going to print the stuff we like in a local printing shop, and probably the same for tools, cars, (some will want to print a flying one, haha) etc..and this is already amazing. And inevitably, probably at the critical point in wich a highly capable machine will be able to copy itself, everything we knew about how to earn a living will change.
Yes this technology is amazing, there is 3D printer for several kinds of materials, polymers, metals etc... and several kinds of applications, making tools, molds, parts and so on. We have developing a lot of our stuff in 3D using Solidworks and Rhino and 3D printing in a SLA technology (Stereolithography) using liquid resin and laser, as you can see the results are very good for our application:
As you see you can share an email with the 3D draw and have this printed for you in a local printing shop.
#20
The cost of sintering is very high and has not come down over the last 5 years, I had a quote recently. It is not a cost effective way to make turbine parts. The main snag is that the finish is a rough finish and needs polishing or machining.
People get very carried away with the technology but it will only be really useful when the costs come right down similar to machining parts and the quality of the surface finish improves.
John
People get very carried away with the technology but it will only be really useful when the costs come right down similar to machining parts and the quality of the surface finish improves.
John
#21
#22
My Feedback: (34)
Im sure as everything the cost will go down, the question is can the US makers get the cost affordable before our comptishion.
Im hopeing in 10 years someone will be just printing out composit turbine rc jets for us with very nice detals, lighter than current methouds, and stronger than current materals.
But time will tell I guess.
But I see the biggest issue holding progress back is copywrite protection.
I used to for a very big speed shop in Houston, and had guy who did the port work on our Modern Hemi motors 5.7/6.1, He would do it all by hand, but as our company grew he got a nice 5 axi cnc, he made a program to get the heads very close to the way he like so all he had to do was smooth it all out. Later that year, our biggest comptishion got a hold of our product made a copy of the head ports, they sold there product way under ours as there was not time invested, just plane old copying someones work.
Im hopeing in 10 years someone will be just printing out composit turbine rc jets for us with very nice detals, lighter than current methouds, and stronger than current materals.
But time will tell I guess.
But I see the biggest issue holding progress back is copywrite protection.
I used to for a very big speed shop in Houston, and had guy who did the port work on our Modern Hemi motors 5.7/6.1, He would do it all by hand, but as our company grew he got a nice 5 axi cnc, he made a program to get the heads very close to the way he like so all he had to do was smooth it all out. Later that year, our biggest comptishion got a hold of our product made a copy of the head ports, they sold there product way under ours as there was not time invested, just plane old copying someones work.
Last edited by mikes68charger; 11-19-2014 at 05:51 AM.
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Absolutely agree with you guys about the costs now, however sooner or later prices will go down, and print shops will be available almost everywhere, at least initially to do some plastic parts, like a new trunion, tanks, etc.. pretty much like this guys are doing right now at a reasonable hobbyst prices.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xPYMDXGyBM
Maybe some years from now, this will apply for metal parts for turbine engines too.
Wagner, that seat is nice.. congrats!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8xPYMDXGyBM
Maybe some years from now, this will apply for metal parts for turbine engines too.
Wagner, that seat is nice.. congrats!
#25
Mike
As I am retired my labour costs nothing. The main problem was that this item was really too large for my small 4th axis. The part is a dog clutch for a WW2 turbine starter. The cost of making this one part by direct metal sintering would be more than the price the whole starter. As it is I made the part for the cost of some scrap mild steel. It is just so dissapointing that the cost of this new technology is so expensive and does not seem to be getting cheaper. I needed other parts like springs made and was very pleased to get these made locally at a sensible price.
John
As I am retired my labour costs nothing. The main problem was that this item was really too large for my small 4th axis. The part is a dog clutch for a WW2 turbine starter. The cost of making this one part by direct metal sintering would be more than the price the whole starter. As it is I made the part for the cost of some scrap mild steel. It is just so dissapointing that the cost of this new technology is so expensive and does not seem to be getting cheaper. I needed other parts like springs made and was very pleased to get these made locally at a sensible price.
John
I'm semi retired and make a lot of my own parts also but was just confirming that the prices you got were not out of line. Technology costs and a business owner needs to get a return on his investment. Just not like the good old days before computers/CNC where you needed to be a real craftsman. I amaze my employees what can be done by hand and manual machines. Not many of us left. Check out my shop and Have a good day
www.mandmprecision.com
Last edited by toolmaker7341; 11-19-2014 at 12:05 PM. Reason: spelling