FAA's Enforcable 400 Feet = Death to Jets?
12-30-2015, 07:16 AM
#202
I cannot tell a thing from the photo's. Your giant scale might be 1/2a and your jet might be GS for all I know. Without a horizon with something to judge size you just cannot tell.
12-30-2015, 08:02 AM
#205
One of the fields I fly at is in Cherry Creek State Park- Denver,CO. We have been flying with a 400 ft altitude restriction for over 35 years. The DRCE field is 2.75 miles from the North/South runway at Centennial Airport and lined up with that runway. The restriction was placed on the field when a 10ft span sailplane collided with a private twin engine airplane. A plane comes right over DRCE field every few minutes.
The sailplane fliers moved to a different field because the 400ft limit was not acceptable to them. .Since the collision the club has encouraged each flier to have a spotter. In my opinion the altitude restriction is violated many times a day but when notified a full scale is in the pattern the model flier will decend immediately. Usually the full scale is at 1000ft or slightly higher but occasionally we have a helicopter fly right over the field at 400-500ft. This is the biggest hazard.
Last summer I installed an altimeter in my 1/4 scale Cub. I can turn the altimeter reporting off and on at the transmitter so on my first flight I left it off and climbed out to what I estimated to be 400ft, turned it on and it reported 590ft. We have a unwritten agreement that turbine jets will not be flown at this field because the field is not compatible for high performance models.
I estimate that 75% of the flights at Cherry Creek now are electric powered. This type of model is more compatible with current conditions because the electric powered flier can better hear an approaching full scale.
The sailplane fliers moved to a different field because the 400ft limit was not acceptable to them. .Since the collision the club has encouraged each flier to have a spotter. In my opinion the altitude restriction is violated many times a day but when notified a full scale is in the pattern the model flier will decend immediately. Usually the full scale is at 1000ft or slightly higher but occasionally we have a helicopter fly right over the field at 400-500ft. This is the biggest hazard.
Last summer I installed an altimeter in my 1/4 scale Cub. I can turn the altimeter reporting off and on at the transmitter so on my first flight I left it off and climbed out to what I estimated to be 400ft, turned it on and it reported 590ft. We have a unwritten agreement that turbine jets will not be flown at this field because the field is not compatible for high performance models.
I estimate that 75% of the flights at Cherry Creek now are electric powered. This type of model is more compatible with current conditions because the electric powered flier can better hear an approaching full scale.
By the way I couldn't find your field on Google maps or the AMA data base.
https://flightaware.com/resources/ai...PA/IAP/all/pdf
12-30-2015, 10:00 AM
#206
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I wonder who the burden of proof would fall upon, the accuser, or the accused? If the latter were true, then what?
12-30-2015, 10:18 AM
#207
calculating for the 3 degree GS for RW 35 and U are 2,75 miles off the end of the runway then 2.75 miles x 5280=14,520' + 1000' for GS interception of the RW from the threshold we get 15,520' from your field so a 3 degrees they should be 813' AGL *(Above U).
By the way I couldn't find your field on Google maps or the AMA data base.
https://flightaware.com/resources/ai...PA/IAP/all/pdf
By the way I couldn't find your field on Google maps or the AMA data base.
https://flightaware.com/resources/ai...PA/IAP/all/pdf
12-30-2015, 10:32 AM
#208
A cop would have to answer the question of just how high was the aircraft? And the next question would be How did you measure that?
The laser range finder that I use for hunting does have an inclinometer built in to it so it can instantly do the trig to display the ground distance based on the hypotenuse and the angle. I will have to check to see if mine can be set to display the height instead of the ground distance. But this means that the technology is readily available very small, lightweight and not very expensive for a LEO to have one in his car. It would not take a lot of tickets to pay for the technology. If not it would be a very simple software tweak by the manufacturer to make a height measuring device for the LEOs.
12-30-2015, 10:36 AM
#209
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In the USA it is supposed to be innocent until proven guilty, the burden of proof should fall on the LEO to prove that you were over 400'.
A cop would have to answer the question of just how high was the aircraft? And the next question would be How did you measure that?
The laser range finder that I use for hunting does have an inclinometer built in to it so it can instantly do the trig to display the ground distance based on the hypotenuse and the angle. I will have to check to see if mine can be set to display the height instead of the ground distance. But this means that the technology is readily available very small, lightweight and not very expensive for a LEO to have one in his car. It would not take a lot of tickets to pay for the technology. If not it would be a very simple software tweak by the manufacturer to make a height measuring device for the LEOs.
A cop would have to answer the question of just how high was the aircraft? And the next question would be How did you measure that?
The laser range finder that I use for hunting does have an inclinometer built in to it so it can instantly do the trig to display the ground distance based on the hypotenuse and the angle. I will have to check to see if mine can be set to display the height instead of the ground distance. But this means that the technology is readily available very small, lightweight and not very expensive for a LEO to have one in his car. It would not take a lot of tickets to pay for the technology. If not it would be a very simple software tweak by the manufacturer to make a height measuring device for the LEOs.
12-30-2015, 10:46 AM
#210
One of the fields I fly at is in Cherry Creek State Park- Denver,CO. We have been flying with a 400ft altitude restriction for over 35 years. The DRCE field is 2.75 miles from the North/South runway at Centennial Airport and lined up with that runway. The restriction was placed on the field when a 10ft span sailplane collided with a private twin engine airplane. A plane comes right over DRCE field every few minutes.
The sailplane fliers moved to a different field because the 400ft limit was not acceptable to them. .Since the collision the club has encouraged each flier to have a spotter. In my opinion the altitude restriction is violated many times a day but when notified a full scale is in the pattern the model flier will decend immediately. Usually the full scale is at 1000ft or slightly higher but occasionally we have a helicopter fly right over the field at 400-500ft. This is the biggest hazard.
Last summer I installed an altimeter in my 1/4 scale Cub. I can turn the altimeter reporting off and on at the transmitter so on my first flight I left it off and climbed out to what I estimated to be 400ft, turned it on and it reported 590ft. We have a unwritten agreement that turbine jets will not be flown at this field because the field is not compatible for high performance models.
I estimate that 75% of the flights at Cherry Creek now are electric powered. This type of model is more compatible with current conditions because the electric powered flier can better hear an approaching full scale.
The sailplane fliers moved to a different field because the 400ft limit was not acceptable to them. .Since the collision the club has encouraged each flier to have a spotter. In my opinion the altitude restriction is violated many times a day but when notified a full scale is in the pattern the model flier will decend immediately. Usually the full scale is at 1000ft or slightly higher but occasionally we have a helicopter fly right over the field at 400-500ft. This is the biggest hazard.
Last summer I installed an altimeter in my 1/4 scale Cub. I can turn the altimeter reporting off and on at the transmitter so on my first flight I left it off and climbed out to what I estimated to be 400ft, turned it on and it reported 590ft. We have a unwritten agreement that turbine jets will not be flown at this field because the field is not compatible for high performance models.
I estimate that 75% of the flights at Cherry Creek now are electric powered. This type of model is more compatible with current conditions because the electric powered flier can better hear an approaching full scale.
How to answer cops: Smile courteously and "Dear officer, on advice of counsel, I exercise my 5th amendment right and respectfully, decline to answer your question."
Cops/governments are not your friends, they have to justify their existence: enforce laws. I.e., find a way the YOU are breaking some law that they can enforce.
The last time I got pulled over on my bike (by another motorcycle cop) he actually laughed! He said he was getting riddin on pretty hard by the city to slow people down on that street. And I was doing 60 in a 35! (Huuuuge empty street in the mountain roads) He wrote me 38 in a 35. Cool dude. But I still got a ticket because he was being TOLD by the government (the city) to bust people and ofcourse, I was breaking the law. But never mind that!
Not a long stretch to get our "toys" down the same pathway.
Last edited by ravill; 12-30-2015 at 10:53 AM.
12-30-2015, 11:20 AM
#211
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As I said before my club and many around Australia we 400 feet limit it not the high limit we are having problem with at our club it staying in the boundary one of the Wednesday flyers with his $100 plane crashed in the ski club dam now we are having problems with that now before that happened not a problem now we got to try and keep in side the boundary's. Our last Jet event we had we had a few bigger jets than normal and the and they had trouble keeping in side the boundary and our safety officer pulling his hair out
Its just not you guys having problems it every clubs are having problems
Damo
Its just not you guys having problems it every clubs are having problems
Damo
Last edited by Damo260; 12-30-2015 at 11:40 AM.
12-30-2015, 11:42 AM
#212
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In the interest of our hobby we should not longer reference Illegal Model Airplane Pilots or illegal activities involving RC. Whether it is because they do not have a Registration or for any other reason.
We should use the term Undocumented Drone Pilots
We should use the term Undocumented Drone Pilots
12-30-2015, 12:12 PM
#214
Guys,
The idea of arguing altitude in front of some federal or local law enforcement and/or a judge is just so far out in left field. You could however have IMMEDIATE issues, from club members and your club's BOD..
If you fly at a club, there is a very strong likelihood that there are some that don't like turbines.
If you come on here and say you “absolutely cannot stay below 400 feet", they can then say "thank you very much", take that information to the club’s board and maybe that is enough to get turbines banned from your club.
Second, although there may be devices that can tell you your altitude, I don't use them, have no intention of using them. I do not believe they need to be mandated in any way, shape or form. They are prone to error and might cause interference with my radio, cause distraction, cause my battery or turbine to fail, etc etc.
Maybe some of you are too new to remember the AMA turbine "speed limiter wars" of 2004? You do know we did not always have a 200 mph speed limit.
I can easily stay below 400 feet. Easily. All day, every day.
400 feet is certainly not the death of (my) jets……..
The idea of arguing altitude in front of some federal or local law enforcement and/or a judge is just so far out in left field. You could however have IMMEDIATE issues, from club members and your club's BOD..
If you fly at a club, there is a very strong likelihood that there are some that don't like turbines.
If you come on here and say you “absolutely cannot stay below 400 feet", they can then say "thank you very much", take that information to the club’s board and maybe that is enough to get turbines banned from your club.
Second, although there may be devices that can tell you your altitude, I don't use them, have no intention of using them. I do not believe they need to be mandated in any way, shape or form. They are prone to error and might cause interference with my radio, cause distraction, cause my battery or turbine to fail, etc etc.
Maybe some of you are too new to remember the AMA turbine "speed limiter wars" of 2004? You do know we did not always have a 200 mph speed limit.
I can easily stay below 400 feet. Easily. All day, every day.
400 feet is certainly not the death of (my) jets……..
12-30-2015, 12:41 PM
#215
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Now this what going to happen now if we crash out side the boundary's because of one old guy who can't fly and couldn't even see his plane.
With recent events of planes crashing outside our boundary and a telephone discussion that I had with our neighbour at the ski park
It was voted at yesterdays meeting by the majority of members present that SMF adopt a new policy.
The policy states that if a pilot flying his or her plane crashes the plane in a no fly zone at or outside our field at Coolum that person will be grounded from flying a model of any description at SMF until an investigation is carried out by a newly formed incident investigating team and a recommendation from that team given to the committee. The four being.
1: A MAAA qualified heavy model inspector from SMF but not on the committee. ( Rotational investigating team member )
2: A MAAA qualified flying instructor from SMF but not on the committee. ( Rotational investigating team member )
3: The club safety officer
4: The club President or in his or her absence the vice President.
The incident investigating teams purpose is to come up with a recommendation to give to the SMF management committee of what if any action needs to be taken by the committee to ensure that the Pilot involved in the incident can continue to enjoy flying in a safe manner and hopefully reduce the risk of further incidents from reoccurring.
Damo
With recent events of planes crashing outside our boundary and a telephone discussion that I had with our neighbour at the ski park
It was voted at yesterdays meeting by the majority of members present that SMF adopt a new policy.
The policy states that if a pilot flying his or her plane crashes the plane in a no fly zone at or outside our field at Coolum that person will be grounded from flying a model of any description at SMF until an investigation is carried out by a newly formed incident investigating team and a recommendation from that team given to the committee. The four being.
1: A MAAA qualified heavy model inspector from SMF but not on the committee. ( Rotational investigating team member )
2: A MAAA qualified flying instructor from SMF but not on the committee. ( Rotational investigating team member )
3: The club safety officer
4: The club President or in his or her absence the vice President.
The incident investigating teams purpose is to come up with a recommendation to give to the SMF management committee of what if any action needs to be taken by the committee to ensure that the Pilot involved in the incident can continue to enjoy flying in a safe manner and hopefully reduce the risk of further incidents from reoccurring.
Damo
12-30-2015, 01:05 PM
#217
The first time a turbine collides with a full scale, I bet we will have a bigger problem than just having to move fields.
How to answer cops: Smile courteously and "Dear officer, on advice of counsel, I exercise my 5th amendment right and respectfully, decline to answer your question."
Cops/governments are not your friends, they have to justify their existence: enforce laws. I.e., find a way the YOU are breaking some law that they can enforce.
The last time I got pulled over on my bike (by another motorcycle cop) he actually laughed! He said he was getting riddin on pretty hard by the city to slow people down on that street. And I was doing 60 in a 35! (Huuuuge empty street in the mountain roads) He wrote me 38 in a 35. Cool dude. But I still got a ticket because he was being TOLD by the government (the city) to bust people and ofcourse, I was breaking the law. But never mind that!
Not a long stretch to get our "toys" down the same pathway.
How to answer cops: Smile courteously and "Dear officer, on advice of counsel, I exercise my 5th amendment right and respectfully, decline to answer your question."
Cops/governments are not your friends, they have to justify their existence: enforce laws. I.e., find a way the YOU are breaking some law that they can enforce.
The last time I got pulled over on my bike (by another motorcycle cop) he actually laughed! He said he was getting riddin on pretty hard by the city to slow people down on that street. And I was doing 60 in a 35! (Huuuuge empty street in the mountain roads) He wrote me 38 in a 35. Cool dude. But I still got a ticket because he was being TOLD by the government (the city) to bust people and ofcourse, I was breaking the law. But never mind that!
Not a long stretch to get our "toys" down the same pathway.
You guys know as well as do that we have jet flyins at full-scale airports and we work in with full-scale all the time. Keep your eyes open and give way - simple as that.
Bob
12-30-2015, 01:11 PM
#218
Our club has a 400 ft limit as we are at 5.2 miles limit on a flight path of full size jets from a major airport. What our club has done is purchased a couple of Eagle Tree stand alone altimeters and put them in various sized aircraft to see what 400 feet looks like from the ground. Size of aircraft sure is important as to how high they are flying . Smaller 40 size aircraft appeared higher than larger 30 or 40% aircraft. From time to time we ask flyers that tend to fly at that altitude to use the altimeter. To give them some insite as to altitude. Seems to work for us.
12-30-2015, 01:23 PM
#219
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That's why I haven't flown there since our last jet event. Were are the good old days were we just go fly and not worry about the bull**** and enjoy our self's now we are always looking over shoulders to see if we are doing the right thing.
its going to be interesting in a few weeks when 2016 jet event kick off and our first on the list...
Damo
its going to be interesting in a few weeks when 2016 jet event kick off and our first on the list...
Damo
12-30-2015, 01:26 PM
#220
Since I am the OP, I have another question, and don't think I need to start another forum. Question: Does this mean that should these law/rules/regs/ etc? Pass. Does this mean we can no longer put a GoPro on the jet for our own personal use and YouTube?
12-30-2015, 02:10 PM
#222
Of course if it was up to me (and a bunch of other people that practically begged them) the AMA should have banned all cameras from RC, in much the same way they ban metal props, turbines (that is why we get a "waiver"), etc.
A couple percent of traditional RC people would (unfortunately) be affected but basically ALL of the "FPV" drones could have then been regulated without dragging traditional RC into it.
This could have created the space we needed to distance ourselves from this drone regulation. Of course, in that scenario, your GoPro thing would have been illegal (I do that too and would have to stop) but it would have been a small price to pay to stay out of this drone mess.
Huge mistake by the AMA, opportunity missed
12-30-2015, 02:15 PM
#223
The AMA is smarter than the FAA and yourself. Banning doesn't work, If they banned them then people would fly them at AMA fields anyway. Maybe I would have picked it up out of protest.
12-30-2015, 02:21 PM
#225
Mr. Matt! Do you think it would be wise to make previous YouTube videos private? This due to some unforeseen rule that was broken while flying prior to this craziness and insanity? Some of them I don't want to loose, yet, I don't think they can be copied back to my Hard drive?