Toe-in best practice and technique
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skunkwurk (11-03-2020)
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skunkwurk (11-03-2020)
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dutch_tw (11-03-2020)
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skunkwurk (11-03-2020)
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skunkwurk (11-03-2020)
11-03-2020, 12:43 PM
#8
My Feedback: (53)
Originally Posted by BarracudaHockey
I got to the field one day and a guy had a target about 30 yards out and laser pointers on the struts and centerline.
Some people are too smart I think
Some people are too smart I think
Must have been an engineer......simple problem, complicated solution...
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skunkwurk (11-03-2020)
11-03-2020, 01:02 PM
#9
I like the carbon fiber rod idea. I saw a video posted by Canadian Man where he used a similar method. I'm not trying to over complicate things, I agree that we can get too carried away with simple tasks. I think the 30 yard target comment was hilarious.
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Canadian Man (11-04-2020)
11-03-2020, 01:58 PM
#10
I have covered it in RCJi more than once 😉
Removable wings like this, one piece wing it’s best to put it on the fuselage and reference off each side. I use 2’ long rods and set around 3/8” wider at the rear.
Removable wings like this, one piece wing it’s best to put it on the fuselage and reference off each side. I use 2’ long rods and set around 3/8” wider at the rear.
11-03-2020, 02:25 PM
#11
Originally Posted by skunkwurk
Hi Fellas,
How do you measure toe-in? How much is too much or too little? I've always eyeballed it but I figure some of you may have a more measured/methodical approach.
Thanks in advance for your help.
How do you measure toe-in? How much is too much or too little? I've always eyeballed it but I figure some of you may have a more measured/methodical approach.
Thanks in advance for your help.
Actually a little toe out works better in jets. Less prone to zig zag
Center as best as possible and open a little bit. 1 or 2 degrees in each wheel is enough
BR
Nuno
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JackD (11-04-2020)
11-03-2020, 02:27 PM
#12
Originally Posted by Dave Wilshere
I have covered it in RCJi more than once 😉
Removable wings like this, one piece wing it’s best to put it on the fuselage and reference off each side. I use 2’ long rods and set around 3/8” wider at the rear.
Removable wings like this, one piece wing it’s best to put it on the fuselage and reference off each side. I use 2’ long rods and set around 3/8” wider at the rear.
This is exactly what I was looking for. I've just been eyeballing until this point. I did not have actual numbers to work off of. The 3/8" value at the rear using the 2' rod is a simple process I can easily replicate on all my planes. Thanks, Dave!
11-03-2020, 02:45 PM
#13
Toe out is is a complete no no! Toe in pushes down the light load/raised wheel.
Eyeballs can be good, but now airframes are generally straight measuring is better 🙂
Eyeballs can be good, but now airframes are generally straight measuring is better 🙂
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skunkwurk (11-03-2020)
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skunkwurk (11-04-2020)
11-03-2020, 09:52 PM
#18
Originally Posted by CARS II
I go straight, it gets a bit of toe in from the struts/wheels when they flex in on the run, has worked perfectly for me.
2. Electron and other quality TL legs have almost no free play, the old tubular leg with a sliding pin/screw needed the wheel twisting to take up the free play, then the leg setting.
Dave
11-04-2020, 10:35 AM
#20
Originally Posted by ravill
Toe out is no good. It actually increases straight line instability. You can look up all the car racing set ups. Toe in is what you want.
He told me race cars are toe in in front, and to out on the rears.
What toe out does for you on narrow track, cross wind conditions is that when the outer wheel gets loaded, it does not bite, so the plane does not tip over and bounce back. it is a lot more forgiving. On my current sabre, I have too much toe in (it was factory set, and a pita to correct, but i will fix it) and you cant even touch the brakes cause it starts wingdancing on the ground
I don't know if the airplane becomes a bit more sensitive, but nothing a nosewheel gyro does not solve (i have nose wheel gyros in 100% of my planes). But what you gain on cross wind stability on the ground is priceless....
11-04-2020, 11:05 AM
#21
Hi Jack,
Very interesting point, thanks for sharing it with us. I suppose we could classify this (toe-in/out) as tuning, and there probably isn't a perfect or right answer for all setups. I used to race motocross and tuning my gearing and suspension was paramount, but it changed constantly based on the track. So I kept close notes of what worked and replicated it every time I would revisit the track and the conditions. But I had a baseline to work from. I think toe-in/out, as it relates to race cars and jets could probably be used to tune/solve different problems. Example, for a race car steering behavior is more important than straight line stability(F1 not a drag-car), so toe-out (negative toe) is potentially preferred over a passenger car. Where a passenger car would tune for straight line stability, rather then steering behavior. Both right or correct, but specific to the use case. I suppose for our jets we probably want to determine what we want to solve for first, then adjust accordingly. In my case, I am looking for straight line stability and a heavier nose wheel presence, to aid in steering. Similar to pulling up on tail-daggers (up elevator) to place weight on the tail-wheel for steering. Your example sounds like a good solution as well.
I think the moral of the story is, if you think through the physics at play and implement a repeatable process you can use as a baseline, you're ahead of the game. It should help you determine what works or what doesn't work, more importantly, how to adjust. I have been eyeballing toe-in until now. I plan to set up new planes per Dave's suggestion as a starting point. Now I'll be able to test and add or remove toe-in per plane. I never had a baseline to work from, this is why I turn to RCU! You guys rock!
Very interesting point, thanks for sharing it with us. I suppose we could classify this (toe-in/out) as tuning, and there probably isn't a perfect or right answer for all setups. I used to race motocross and tuning my gearing and suspension was paramount, but it changed constantly based on the track. So I kept close notes of what worked and replicated it every time I would revisit the track and the conditions. But I had a baseline to work from. I think toe-in/out, as it relates to race cars and jets could probably be used to tune/solve different problems. Example, for a race car steering behavior is more important than straight line stability(F1 not a drag-car), so toe-out (negative toe) is potentially preferred over a passenger car. Where a passenger car would tune for straight line stability, rather then steering behavior. Both right or correct, but specific to the use case. I suppose for our jets we probably want to determine what we want to solve for first, then adjust accordingly. In my case, I am looking for straight line stability and a heavier nose wheel presence, to aid in steering. Similar to pulling up on tail-daggers (up elevator) to place weight on the tail-wheel for steering. Your example sounds like a good solution as well.
I think the moral of the story is, if you think through the physics at play and implement a repeatable process you can use as a baseline, you're ahead of the game. It should help you determine what works or what doesn't work, more importantly, how to adjust. I have been eyeballing toe-in until now. I plan to set up new planes per Dave's suggestion as a starting point. Now I'll be able to test and add or remove toe-in per plane. I never had a baseline to work from, this is why I turn to RCU! You guys rock!
Last edited by skunkwurk; 11-04-2020 at 12:43 PM.
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11-04-2020, 12:09 PM
#23
Originally Posted by Dave Wilshere
1. What about when the wheel is on the outside of the leg?
2. Electron and other quality TL legs have almost no free play, the old tubular leg with a sliding pin/screw needed the wheel twisting to take up the free play, then the leg setting.
Dave
2. Electron and other quality TL legs have almost no free play, the old tubular leg with a sliding pin/screw needed the wheel twisting to take up the free play, then the leg setting.
Dave
Last edited by CARS II; 11-04-2020 at 03:46 PM.
11-04-2020, 04:37 PM
#24
Hi
If you adjust with toe out you get more stability in straights, including cross winds. If you adjust with toe in you will have more incisive turns (more twitchy on steering and prone to zig zag). Actually, adding toe in/out, to the set-up, both will shift the center mass of the plane as it rolls on takeoff/landing. Both set-ups add drag and make the nose prone to lower AoA.
Airplanes do not have 4 wheels nor power on these, so we can't just import set-ups used on cars
Any way in racing cars that run on a track (not starights or oval), to have more rear grip you close the rear (add toe in), to have more steering you open the front (toe out), or play with both, depending on grip, tire shore, camber, springs, shock oils, differential, etc.. All set ups have to tune in a band. JackD - its the otherway arround ("He told me race cars are toe in in front, and to out on the rears.")
For those who care, here's a nice article
https://www.competitionx.com/rc-tuning-toe-in-toe-out/
Have fun ;-)
Nuno
If you adjust with toe out you get more stability in straights, including cross winds. If you adjust with toe in you will have more incisive turns (more twitchy on steering and prone to zig zag). Actually, adding toe in/out, to the set-up, both will shift the center mass of the plane as it rolls on takeoff/landing. Both set-ups add drag and make the nose prone to lower AoA.
Airplanes do not have 4 wheels nor power on these, so we can't just import set-ups used on cars
Any way in racing cars that run on a track (not starights or oval), to have more rear grip you close the rear (add toe in), to have more steering you open the front (toe out), or play with both, depending on grip, tire shore, camber, springs, shock oils, differential, etc.. All set ups have to tune in a band. JackD - its the otherway arround ("He told me race cars are toe in in front, and to out on the rears.")
For those who care, here's a nice article
https://www.competitionx.com/rc-tuning-toe-in-toe-out/
Have fun ;-)
Nuno
Last edited by jetnuno; 11-04-2020 at 05:05 PM.
