I actually just found out that that engine was stolen from a shipping dock by cutting the bottom of the box out and then removing the contents. The empty box made it back to AU and some local college students were found with the turbine setup. They could never figure out how to get it started. Like I said this is just parroting info so I don't know the real details...

Effectively it still went Poof!(BFG)

This gets a "Quote of the Year" nomination!

That sounds like a Black Belt Smart A!!!

I like this guy! He has vip, vim, and vigor!

What's an Orion?


PS...I have completed several Estes Skill Level Three kits, including the Mars Snooper. Do I get to be a Rocket Scientist, too?

Only if you can get polyurethane foam to stay on our External Tank!

Seems to me that the easiest way to achieve that, is have an outer skin - so the insulating foam is kept between skins. I gues sthat would probably be a tad too heavy tho...

Hmmm...what would G. Harry Stine do?
I think Estes Technical Report #15 covers this...

Hey, G, if you want to talk, see your PM for my number, in about 15 minutes is good for me...

Gordon--You and I are on the same page--I was thinking about this very thing today and thought that a tough, rubberized polymer applied in a VERY thin coat might do the trick--As you stated, it would have to be kept very thin to keep the weight down. I'm sure that the NASA engineers will come up with something.....After all, this same type of problem solving at NASA brought us some of the high tech materials that today are common occurance.[8D]


Woketman--Did the originator of this thread ever contact you????

Kevin

Something like...Monokote? Man, that would be EXPENSIVE.

Kevin, I think he did, but to tell you the truth, I am not sure. The last 2.5 years of this Return To Flight thing has left me mentally retarded. And some how Mike (TopGun2Mo) had the time to build his Avonds F-15!

The outer skin of rubberized polymer would not work, as far as I know for several reasons. Weight is the first and thermal environment. We need to be qualified for a thermal environment on ascent that is VERY conservative. Why jut in the LO2 Feedline area around station 1106 the max environment is over 1000 degrees F. Look at the attached picture of STS-114 during ascent. See how the forward LO2 tank ogive (the forward portion that is shaped like a boob) is darker that the rest of the SOFI (Spray On Foam Insulation)? That is because it has been charred by aero-heating. I have an awesome photo of this (but it’s at work, not here at home) taken before SRB sep, that's how fast after liftoff it gets charred. Very impressive!

Just to be certain that this stays on-topic: you guys should see the movies taken from the turbine powered WB-57s during ascent. UNREAL!!!!

Dang---I'm never gonna make any money with my ideas...[&o] Maybe we need to re-think how the insulation is adhered to the tank--Perhaps BVM AeroPoxy is in order--NOT hysol 9462 as everyone knows that AeroPoxy is better... (It's a joke so all of you don't get your panties in a wad...)


EASYTIGER---As for the expense, I don't think it is a concern...In past practice both NASA and the military just threw money at projects until they flew...[X(] (Again, another joke..)


Woketman--I was curious if he replied to you--Since the originator of this thread has been AWOL for a while I was beginning to wonder who was pulling whos chain....

Kevin

I don't think there is a simple solution...they have a lot of great minds, plus Wocketman, working at NASA, if there WAS a simple solution, they would have done it. They work hard there, they really do.

To me, the problem is they used FOAM at all. Foam sucks. GWS is destroying the hobby. Depron is for cheap housing, not aircraft.

They should have just used balsa.

The REAL problem, in my opinion, is this: Back in the early 70s congress did not have the testicular fortitude to fund NASA properly to do the more high $$$ shuttle options (like the reusable fly-back first stage option with an Orbiter on top). It was far cheaper up front to slap a side-saddle Orbiter on the side of an expendable External Tank with two jumbo Solid Rocket Boosters on each side. Little did they know how much money would need to be spent in the following three decades on that cheap-up-front configuration. Oh well....

But to keep this on topic: the Orbiter's APUs have turbines in them!

EASY--You got that right!!! I hope that my ill attempt at humor wasn't taken the wrong way...They'll come up with something I'm sure. Good ol american know-how will prevail..

Tell me--If they used balsa would the Monocoat still be needed??? Or, would tissue and dope be in order???

Actually, we did use balsa for years on the External Tank, until a few years ago. There was a mounting plate for some electronic equipment in the Intertank that was made up of a balsa core with aluminum skins. A very light weight and stiff mounting plate. Hard to beat balsa for some things!

The Blessed Oochroma, Nature's perfect material.

Frankly, I would not Monokote the Shuttle, I would do a double layer of silkspan, with nitrate dope, to keep it light. Finish it off with three coats of colored butyrate, preferably Randolph, not Aerogloss, sanded between each coat. Stinson Green works for me, and covers well. White, well, they will be doping on twenty coats to get it nice and opaque.

Turbine APUs...my neighbor in the hangar next to mine was showing me a pair of APUs(actually smoke generators) that he got surplus, with (I belive) T-55 Solaris turbines in them. He wants to do a Bede 5j. We are going to fire one up sometime soon.

The shuttle, well, I guess I am preaching to the choir, yes, it was underfunded, and it was trying too hard to be all things to everyone. The rather fractured logic of the external tank and boosters being economical kind of throws me off, it's a miscalculation on such a grand scale...but I guess a comprimise better than no shuttle at all.

Again...what's an Orion? I have Top Clearance, you can tell me...

Woketman, what is the difference between the external tank used now and the one used until STS-5? there was no foam in it?

When I visited the KSC years ago I couldn't believe at first that the tank hull was made of foam,
as well as the nose cone cover of the boosters..

Made of foam? No, just INSULATED with foam...

The LO2 tank and the LH2 tank are welded aluminum structures (2219 & 2095 Al-Li on Super LightWeight Tank) that are covered with sprayed on polyurethane based foam insulation. The insulation is there to protect propellant quality (keep it cold) but mainly to prevent freezing of condensation on the exterior. Remember: at sea level, liquid hydrogen boils at -432 deg. F. Air would actually liqeufy at those temps on the outside of the LH2 tank. Both tanks would be COVERED with ice at liftoff (like the Saturn cryo tanks were) and all that ice breaking off and flying around once things start rocking & rolling would be a far far worse Orbiter hazard. It was OK during Apollo because the Command Module was up top (in line vehicle, not on the side like Shuttle).

ET: the Orion was an engine that Scotty Boulduc was going to sell or develop or something. It was basically (I think, IIRC) a KJ-66 derivative, but very heavy. I think a guy in Australia was going to be making it for him. It never amounted to much. I think they had a few prototypes, but that was it. Been a long time.

Hey Woketman,
Why don't you leave the foam on the tank but metal morph over the top of it? Actually do the orbitor as well, how good would a polished shuttle look??

If you havent seen this stuff, have a look at this.

http://www.metal-morphous.com

Tony...

The tank would look like a giant flying thermos.

Craharama, how heavy is the pictured p38 ?

Hi Strykaas,


i dont know anything about this process other than what I have read in the warbirds forums, & the F86 thread here, but I did find that it only added 11oz to the total weight. It is a Yellow aircraft P38.

It is an amazing process that they are very cagey about saying too much about how they do it (as I would be too!!!)

I still think the shuttle would look awesome, just glad it's not me that has to polish it

Tony..

Why not cover the the main tank with BVM high speed tape? I think they used to sell it in orange.

If that doesn't work we should just let them land at the moon as an alternate location. Moon's atmosphere would not beat the hell out of the Shuttle during re-entry like Earth's one does.

Of course, but impressive anyway because the foam is outside the tank!

perhaps like you suggested silkspan but applied with ceramic paint would do the trick..

Best regards, Enrique

Use carbon fiber vale and .5 oz cloth vac bagged on the outside of the foam.