Good morning people,

I recently painted a jet with PPG Omni (Acrylic Enamel). I then clear coated it with Ultracoat Clear Spray. Bad idea, it leaves a rough finish, it is easy to stain, and it is already full of fingerprints. Yes, I let it dry for a couple of days. So, I applied more and more and my jet looks yellowish, with a bad clear coat.

OK, I will deffinetley sand it all out and leave just the base colors (600 grit should do it). But my question is, is there another clear coat that I could use with an airbrush (that will not cost me more than $50 a pint)? Can I use Aerogloss or similar?

Thanks,

David

David,
Why not just use the Omni clear and do it right? Thin the Omni clear down between 150% and 200% Last time I bought the Omni I think it was around 40.00 a quart for the clear. Depending on temps, use the med or fast hardner. Is saving a few $$ really worth all the headaches of not using the right stuff [sm=confused.gif]

Todd

No its not worth it Im going to go to the Auto Shop today and buy the good stuff. Im tired of experimenting with crap, because in the end you get crap. I cannot use the "really" good stuff because I paint on my garage and don't have a respirator. I've painted with Omni products before, and though it gets me high at least I know I can survive it.

My worse regret, I will have to remake the decals for my ship.

Thanks for your suggestion Todd.

David

WHOA..... DAVID!!!!!

Do NOT and I repeat, DO NOT Paint without a respirator!!! You got a death wish? You can get yourself a good 3M disposable one for about 22.00 at the paint store. Good for about 3 full paint jobs. Heck, if you dont have the cash for one.... I'll send you one of my slightly used ones for free. Whatever you do, DONT PAINT WITHOUT ONE!!!! If you need one of mine, email me your address and I get it sent out.
Todd

Todd,

Man now you're scaring me!! I didn't know it was that serious. Is it worse than painting with regular OMNI??

I will follow your advise and will get a respirator.

David

Good warning lov2flyrc, a chap here in the uk sprayed his car (d.i.y ) in his garage with a two pack paint using only a cheap face mask. He was dead in two weeks. Apparently, it was isocyanate based and his lung just simply went rock hard. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED

Freff

Todd,
I'm not so sure that the 3m respirator is 'iso' proof. I've heard they are not...after using them for years.[:'(]
ANYBODY OUT THERE THAT KNOWS FOR SURE ??????

W.G. Hunter

David,

By all means use a respirator, but you should be able to shoot the clear outside in order to provide an additional margin of safety. The paint fumes will be harmful to the members of your household as well should the enter from the garage. It is also wise to keep the parts outside or at least in the garage while they are curing since they are still giving off toxic fumes while this process is going on. I usually shoot early in the morning or in the evening when it is relatively calm, and I spray Yard Guard to keep the bugs away. You can hose the yard down in order to minimize the dust. A cloudy day is a bit better since bright sunlight may blush the clear as it is being sprayed, although I have never experienced this problem.

Mike Danchak

Isocyanate paints are designed to be used with positive pressure resirator systems (ie the air is taken from a clean place and pressure fed remotely to your mask).

As far as I know there is no conventional respirator (ie mask with filters) that is "approved" for isocyanate use.

Mike, Todd:

Is the OMNI clearcoat toxic? Or is this a general painting advise?

Thanks,

David

Yes...Omni requires the hardner which contains isocyanate.

Not only do you need the proper respirator but proper SKIN and EYE protection.
Isocyanate can enter the body through through both. BE CAREFUL

Man, I've been painitng with that stuff now for a couple of months now, with no respirator.

Thank you all for putting me into perspective.

Im going to go smell some thinner now.

David

I've switched to Nelson water based polyurethane paints, primarily due to the toxicity issue and not having the proper equipment to use the two part auot paints properly. The Nelson clear dries overnight to a hard clear surface. Adhesion with glass, epoxy primer or nelson colors is really excellent. You could ask Gerry Nelson (Jerry?) whether it works over Omni - I suspect it will. The one thing it does not stick to is automotive spray can lacquer primer.

I've had good results with this stuff. Application is a little different since it takes about 5 thin coats for coverage on the colors. The first coat looks REALLY bad and you wonder what you did wrong. But the second looks semi-OK then the third - fifth looks great and you are just building coverage. It's probably not as good as omni but I haven't yet spent the elbow grease to sand and buff it. Just out of the spray gun onto the plane you get a pretty decent result. No waiting a week for it to maybe get hard as with the Ultracoat stuff either, the next morning it is hard enough to handle then after a day or two it is hard as a rock.

A few years back during one of my PPG refresher courses, the topic of proper iso protection was addressed in the class. It was pointed out that the first stage (ie: particle filter) of a good mask is the part of the filter that traps the iso, not the carbon cartridge. I have been using these finishes since they were introduced, and by following the safety precautions, have managed to stay healthy. I have rules in place in the shop that prohibit the spraying of any iso containing materials in the open air. I also reccomend the use of a fresh air system for any top coats.
Believe me, paint containing iso can and will screw you up. PERIOD
If you do not have the means to protect yourself, then let a profesional spray for you.
Isocyanates can and will enter into the body through the eyes, any exposed skin or through the respiratory system. They are attracted to moisture and attach themselves to fatty cells in the body, where they remain...................

Ron Ballard

What a coincidence, I have had a real bad experience with Omni just recently. I was using DAU 75 clear for years, carried over form my auto body days. Well my supplier does not carry 75 anymore so I tried the Omni, since this is all they carry now. The first time I spayed it the clear was to thick and I got what looked like fisheyes over the Pro-Mark graphics, anyway I sanded the clear down smooth again, careful not to burn through, which took forever, and re-sprayed the Omni only thinned out 100% this time. Problem is worse this time, the bottom came out too flat and the top too glossy and the spotting was back. The odd thing was that the spotting was only over the Pro-Mark transfers. I have cleared many airplanes over the years and never have had this problem before, both with the clear and transfers. Has this happened to anyone else? I finally had to ship the airplane to it's owner in Fl. I can not keep sanding and clearing, the plane will weigh 40 lbs. So in a nut shell, I will never use Omni again. I my opinion it is not worth the price, since time is money, I would rather pay more ( a lot more) to do it only once next time, I just have to find a new supplier.
Bill

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Bill,
Have painted many planes with the omni series paints, never had the issues you describe? Only problems I experienced was the clear was easy to sag if it is not thinned. Reducing it 150-200% solved the problem entirely. Been quite pleased with the finish Omni provided for the price. I have used the Omni clear with Promark graphics without any issues as well.

Ron,
Paint guys told me the 3M respirators are adequate for use with Iso? Is this true or should I be using something else???

Thanks,
Todd

Inexpensive spray suit:
A good Binks respirator with fresh cartridges and particle filters, a cover for your head and face,
a pair of sealed eye goggles, a pair of good surgical gloves, clothes to protect your body, arms, legs and feet, sealing the pants to the socks with rubber bands or tightly wrapped tape and a long sleeved sweat shirt with the gloves pulled over the end of the sleeve and wrapped tight.

Total cost: $ 45.00 (and you can reuse the mask). Just keep it in a sealed bag and it is good for 8 hours in exposed air. Remember, the charcoal cartridge is filtering air every second it is exposed to it. There, sealing it in a resealable bag extends the usefull life.

good luck

I thought everyone knew this.

This link is to a very "high tech" 3M respirator.....notice the front page "non isocyanate use only"


http://authoring.3m.com/cms/GB/en/2-...iewimage.jhtml

Is the clear coat the most hazardous part or is the primer application and color coat as hazardous. I know you still need all of the protective equipment I was just curious.

Even K36 uses isocyanates.

take a look at this, about 3/4 of the way down.......positive pressure ONLY!

http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/npg/npgd0423.html

Just to clarify, there are color coats that use isocyanates and those that do not. I use K36 for primer (has isocyanates), then a non-isocyanate color coat and then an isocyanate clear coat.

Todd,

Forced air or a scuba tank. Every part of your body & eyes should be covered. However, I've been told if you use a mask and spray outdoors, you should be ok for the small amount of exposure you will get painting a small plane.

Remember, this stuff doesn't ever leave your system. It compounds with multiple exposure. Nasty stuff.

[link]http://www.ppg.com/cr-refinish/phase1/frmSafetyFirst.asp?link=protectguide#Equipment[/link]

Mark

OK Guys. Im staying away from this s*h*i*t*.

Again, I have been using it for a while with no protection and nothing has ever hyappened to me, I guess I've been really lucky.

Klasskote from now on.

Where can I get the Nelson clear stuff? Is it automotive?

Thanks,
David

Hi David
Just to reinforce the other comments on this subject, it is my understanding exposure to this material is cumulative. In other words it all adds up and does stay in your system. You can have serious problems including death. I have painted in the past using a positive pressure hood, body suit and gloves, but I am leaving this material up to my local body shop in the future.
BRG
G Anixter

http://www.nelsonhobby.com/paint.html

No, it is not automotive. The commercial company is System 3 Resins, I think the main application is boats.

Thanks Chris. I will contact Nelson today, as my LHS doesn't carry it.