They did not even bother to deburr the holes in the CC wall. Looks like the flame tubes melted. Okay, anti JetJoe crowd provide us with more pics to support claims of inferior materials and workmanship.

To be fair it still wouldnt prove anything since you could no doubt find pictures of failed bits from any manufacturer. And it cant be every engine as many run fine and mine is an example of one (after a little *expected* fine tuning).

The issue is really just the blatant copying.

But how exactly are the USERS at fault here? If a turbine is for sale and available on the market people will buy it. The majority probably buy because of price and have no idea that they are copies of the wrens or other engines. Its the manufacturer that is at fault. You cant blame consumers for buying something thats on sale!

Cloned stuff that is SOLD as a "fake" such as JJ isnt so bad as say Rolex watches or Memory cards (ebay is full) of products claiming to be originals. Wren really would be upset if ebay was flooded with Wren Turbines that were fake copies!

I fly helis too. I have a TREX 500 at 399 quid. You can buy them for 199 on ebay and they are copies that really are pretty good! (I bought one for spares).

De burring the holes is an example of the kind of setting up I refered to earlier when I mentioned that JJs are not for the artf "new" crowd that now fly toy planes... Its an obvious technicality that I would have attended to before ever running it. Its only a couple of screws to check everything out. Takes about 20 mins to strip examine adjust a few bits as needed and rebuild it.

As I am planning the purchase of my second turbine in the future, perhaps a year or so from now. Currently I have a RAM 750+ that somehow missed the iconol CC upgrade and melted the CC.

Perhaps the question that I have not seen answered is did Wren or any other manufacturer patent their products? I ask this because my father and I developed the variable needle valve for RC boat use 30 some years ago. The design then became the one built by Don Pinkert, whom we used to be semi-sponsored by. The valve later became with a few changes the one BVM sold and later patented.

Without the issuance of a patent somewhere, who is really the owner of the design?

Do you think JJ is interested in patents? Do you think that patents can be enforced on Chinese companies? By small manufacturers with limited resources?
I have seen more than one JJ engine. Since I actually built a MW54 MkI from plans I believe I know the engine quite well. I've also seen the insides of Jetcats, Model Mechanics and Simjet. The JJ is a carbon copy of the MW54. The other designs are quite different.

There is no question the JJ copied the designs. I think that's usually called STEALING. I definitely consider him a THIEF! Unfortunately there is very little that can be done about that.

What should be said is that JJ engines are built to very low standards. The metallurgy is wrong. The turbines are probably not real Inconel and are probably not x-rayed. When I say bad TOLERANCES I mean bad TOLERANCES and not clearances. This is the reason some JJs work ok and some don't. Some have way too much CLEARANCE between the turbine and shroud. Some have shafts and tunnels that are not truly concentric making the engine noisy, hot and weak.

While some of the issues (like poorly built and aligned fuel rings) can be solved by a competent modeler. Other issues like turning a good shaft and constructing a good c.c. are much more difficult to do and require tools that most modelers do not have.

Some of the things I've seen on JJ's are absolutely criminal! The way they hog out material out of the hub of the turbine is downright dangerous! And here again, the average, competent, smart modeler does not know how to deal with these issues. Not because he's unintelligent but because he doesn't have the knowledge needed.

The fact that JJ stole designs might make me not like him but the real reason I recommend that people stay away from these engines is the quality and safety issues involved.

Forget it DynoPower...

You're just going to get continually lectured and harassed because you bought something that has peeved a few others.

And they won't stop trying to lay a guilt-trip on you. You bad boy you - shame on you. For buying something on the open market. They would much rather have a go at you than confront the perpetrator of the alleged 'copy'. They will hijack every single thread that has anything to do with this product. They will try to intimidate, belittle, insult and bully you because *how dare you*, you purchased something that they believe is theirs. In a niche market where every micro turbine is basically the same.

I'd like to know, for example, who was the first to introduce the self-starting Turbine. And if they receive royalties from every other manufacturer out there who is using the same clutched-electric-motor-at-the-front principal. And if the home-hobbyists such as yourself receive any recompense for the years of blood, sweat and tears they did in pioneering what we now have today. YOUR own R&D that you gladly persevered in the name of the Hobby. Your sharing of ideas and camaraderie.

Then, suddenly, someone decides to gather up all that they have gleaned from everyone else's hard work, and tries to call it their own. All in the pursuit of filthy money.

They conveniently forget that they are not the inventors - just hunters and gatherers. On-selling ideas that have come from intuitive and enthusiastic experimenters of days gone by. And then they finally come up with an idea of their own, and they are distraught that someone else would dare to mass-produce it.

Nup - you'll be flogging a dead horse in here. You’ll quickly notice that the same few will continually pop-up and start their whining and beatching on how you, by buying a legal product, are stealing from someone else. Probably the very same people who borrowed and collected everyone else's years of dedication and decided to call it their own.

And yet they still don't see that the root cause of this is their own manufacturing industries' greed for money that went to countries like China in the first place so that they could exploit the cheap labour conditions in order to make even more money. What they didn't see coming was that by doing this, they were selling their souls by investing in a foreign infrastructure that would one day turn around and bite them on the @rse. They helped to build the single most powerful manufacturing company in the world to tool-up physically and technologically. A country who's legacy after years of abuse puts them in a position to now be the abuser. And now the instigators are screaming blue bloody murder that they are getting it sold back to them.

Go figure...

BJ

To be fair here BJ the 1400 is a wren 54 mk3 produced by Jetjoe it is not a similar design, I could use any of the parts from wren to replace ones in my turbine and likewise use any jetjoe parts in a wren.
This is really what it boils down to, I cannot comment on the other turbines 1800, 3000 etc.

Yes the turbine design goes back a long way, I have plans for a KJ66 which apart from some combustion chamber design changes could easily be an exploded view for a wren or jetjoe.
Other designs like the Hawk turbine are different concepts, but many are similar to the wren 54 layout and I bet there are others fundamently the same, but the big thing here which is causing the problem is an exact copy.

Jaysuz... well bloody shoot me then for buying the wrong Turbine.

I actually came on this thread because it says "JETJOE OWNERS THREAD".

I own a JJ3000, and I'd like to learn more about them - not get bogged down in a never-ending bun-fight over who stole what from whom.

You have been kind enough to share your experiences and post pics of the innards of a JJ Tubrine, and I much appreciate that That's what one would reasonably expect to find on a dedicated thread.

Somewhere along the line, the emphasis of this thread has shifted to being an almighty argument.

For Gawds sake, is it possible to get this forum back on topic? Um...that would be about JJ owners discussing their JJ engines...

BJ

This is EXACTLY why some of us repeatedly come on here and repeat over and over that JetShmoe is a THIEF, stay awy from JJ turbines!!! To warn those that do not yet understand. Those that honestly did not realize the tremendous rip-off of fine companies like Wren are indeed in a pickle: they did not know they were supporting a thief when they bought, what to do now? But the more that can be warned ahead of time, the better. Keep getting the word out and maybe we can kill JJ.

Of course, there will alway be a (hopefully) small portion of modelers who just plain don't care. They probably shop-lift at the local store too....

That is simple Gaspar: according to some on here, the average modeler should go into his shop, develop the technology for matter/energy transport (ala the Replicator technology on Star Trek), then transmute Inconel 718 molecules into the combustion chamber's sticks and simultaneously remove the CRES molecules that were placed there by Joe. Simple!!!

If any of us is a "true" modeler, it'll just take a weeked! If you cannot do it, then you're a lazy' "ARF" modeler!!! Not a real he-man modeler!

Those that truly did not know they were buying a ripped off Wren, when they bought JetShmoe, are indeed in a difficult situation. Best thing to do would be to trash it (the honest thing to do) and try to get a decent turbine. But that may quite often be impossible economically.

All the more reason to let folks know as often and as loud as possible so that they do not give money to JJ.

Best regards, BJ64.

Doesn't take much to get you to spin your wheels, does it?

Nope, not at all. Just when confronted with Wren theft!

I've got a Jetjoe - well. the remains of one - given to me after the customer had bought a Wren to replace it. This particular JJ had been given a Wren front and tailcone and passed off as a Wren in a secondhand sale. The turbine failed in the air and spat blades out the back ... and everyone at the JetMeet thought it was a Wren that failed. Maybe you could spare a moment to think how you'd feel if your company's product was in danger of getting a bad name because of the failure of a pirated copy?

So, surely I'm allowed to discuss the engines?

A few points from recent posts
"Wren really would be upset if ebay was flooded with Wren Turbines that were fake copies! "
Mercifully Ebay has not been flooded but there have been a number of cases. JJs were (possibly still are) sold in Asia as "JetLucky" with a green front, and people have tried to resell them as Wrens. Another trick is to buy a Wren FOD screen and fit it to a JJ, as in the incident I've just reported.

The miniature jet engine is not easily patentable. There was a lot of work done by people in the 1990s, including Schrecking, Artes, Kamps, Gaspar Espiell and Mike Murphy of Wren, and the majority of model turbines are based on these designs. All reputable companies do things their own way, each has their own designers who are continually improving the engines. Wren spend over 50,000 dollars a year on R&D, working to develop new engines and improve the existing ones. For example, the original Wren MW54 with 11 pounds of thrust has been developed into the SuperSport with 18+ pounds. I could give you examples from our competitors, too - we are all constantly competing with each other to improve. If we didn't do that then you guys wouldn't have all the latest engines, you'd be stuck with something that weighed four pounds, only produced 15 pounds of thrust and had to be started with a leaf-blower.

Have you seen the new KingTech turbines from Taiwan? Those guys have done their own development, produced an engine that works and is value for money. They have had a good review in RC Jets International and are being sold by trusted and experienced retailers like Todd at Dreamworks. We accept that as legitimate competition - a good thing for customers, as I've just explained. Joe, however, has simply copied other engines and his product doesn't even work properly. I've been on here a number of times and said we aren't against competition, only UNFAIR competion. A poorly copied product is not only unfair to the original designer, it's also unfair to modellers, I know of many people who have bought the engines and found that they have lost their money because the engines don't work.

Sara Parish
Wren Turbines

I think everyone would agree enough has been said on the topic, The views of the people directly involved are now here for all to see and justafiably so.

Many have bought JetJoes and many will continue to buy them, many will buy before seeing this thread and many may never be on RCU or other forums, but any that do and need help, I still think they should be given the best advise they can to help get them going if possible. Just thowing it in the bin and buying another is not an option for many.

I for one will provide what ever help I can as I would'nt want to see someone spend that sort of money and have it lying in a corner. When the money is spent it is spent and majority will not be able to go and buy another brand, so I would like to see them get flying like I did rather than see thier money wasted.

Every Jetjoe customer is a potential customer down the road for Wren, Jetcat, AMT anyone who starts flying jets will buy a second and a third etc as time passes buy and finances in the future allow.

I agree with most of the rest of what you said, but not this part. We need to continually yell it over and over, from the highest mountain top, to avoid JetShmoe so that newbies will not fall into the JJ trap.

Say it over and over: avoid JetJoe like the plague that it is!!!

I was referring to the Copying issues, if people want to comment when a newbe says "I am about to buy a jetjoe" then they are free to do so as in any other thread.

I would have to agree with that!

After endless frustration, JetJoe engine (marketed as a JLT by a local Australian distributor) back to the factory, engine letting go in mid air spitting flaming debris on the ground & setting the tail on his Boomerang on fire my flying buddy did, indeed, become a customer for Jetcat and now has his third Jetcat on order.

The real miracle was he was able to sell the JetJoe after it came back from repair (again).

Being a 'glass half full' type of person he figures the JetJoe experience at least allowed him to gain experience fixing turbine problems but in the end he fixed the JetJoe problems by getting rid of it. Now it's someone else's problem. - John.

Has there ever been any JetJoe engine that didn't need serviced before 25hr?? I mean take it out of the box, install and fly and not need replacement parts for this or that?

Heck! Ask if only 15 hours! You might get an answer then! BTW... 40+ hours on my MW44 Gold and still uses the original glow plug. Lets see: $2400USD divided by 40 hours is $60USD per hour run time with only kero and oil expense. A JJ1400 would have to run 24.6 hours to match the economy of use of the MW44! ($1477USD divided by 60 equals 26.6hours)

As I said before... I can't afford cheap! The KingTech is a MUCH better choice IF $2,000USD is your limit AND you desire a NIB turbine.

Dave Rigotti

Absolutely Sarah...

But you do it in a way that is informative, not inflammatory or degrading towards people who have bought a JetJoe instead.

Personally insulting me doesn't really give me a warm and fuzzy feeling of finally belonging to a fraternity that I have admired and respected since childhood.

And I'm a bit miffed that all this has come out of the woodwork after I bought my JJ.

From reading the JetJoe blogs here, I guess we JJ owners will have to develop some kind of secret handshake or something so that we can share our experiences without being shamed into the time-out corner.

(I'm sure someone is going to pipe in with "You'll know how they are - they'll be the ones constantly fiddling instead of flying" etc etc etc).

Despite what some people may think, I don't advocate blindly ripping off someone else’s designs. But in the Global Village that we live in today, it's inevitable not happen. Seiko did it. Honda did it. And countless others still do it. That doesn't make it right. It's just cold hard fact. And trying to palm something off as 'genuine' via swapping parts etc would have to be the really thin end of the wedge.

Moving back to my reality, I have made my purchase and have to make the most of what I've got. I'm too far down that road now, and if the comments made over the recent months are anything to go by, I wouldn't be able to sell-up in a pink fit anyway.

I'd like to thank the few genuine JetJoe enthusiasts on here who have helped my learning by sharing their experiences and kept things within the spirit of this Hobby - to learn and grow together.

BJ

Hey BJ64, go lookie here: [link=http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8274381/anchors_9270137/mpage_8/key_/anchor/tm.htm#9270137]http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_8274381/anchors_9270137/mpage_8/key_/anchor/tm.htm#9270137[/link]


Care to place some money where your mouth is???

No patent = no protection. BVM love or hate him has taken the time to patent his products that are innovative and unique. That said one need look at the humongous bin full of stuff that has been cloned over the years in this hobby. The vendors who produce a quality product will thrive, those who don't will fade away. Sometimes the clone is better than the original. Besides a foundry for small items in iconol is not exactly in every industrial area like CNC machines seem to be. He is getting the NGV's and Twheels somewhere outside his facility, perhaps from the same source that some other assembler is using. Yes I use the word assembler, because the CNC machines are too expensive to be just used for the making of shaft tunnels and diffusers by one shop. I doubt that even a outfit as large as GE has all the parts made in house.

Thirty five some years ago at a IMPBA Internats we threatened to fill the pockets of Tom Pretzenka from Octura Products with the crap that we had bought from him over the years and throw him in the water. His stuff was so bad we used to use jigs and dial indicators to check his stuff for trueness and run out in the hobbyshop before purchasing. The defective stuff was returned by the hobby shop. Since then the products have improved, not from his QC but from competition from others.

Did JetJoe steal the design and clone it, sure seems that way. Now if he would just tweak and do something better or different all the naysayers would have to change tune.

Nup... it's not me who's trying to prove anything here...

OK, that's what I thought.....

BJ64 why don't you take the challenge? This could end all the JetJoe bashing