Hi
I just read in the recent addition of RC Jet International that AMT are going to be releasing at least one enw turbine this year of "revolutionary design" does anyone have any info on them and what makes them so far ahead of the field. Or is Bernie keeps his powder dry on this one?

Mike

A new AMT rumour stick to beat us over the head with !

I'd guess:
Full auto kero start for Olly, Peggy, Mercury or new engines.
A new 40lb turbine
A new baby turbine, much less thrust than the Mercury HP, say 8lb

A four stage turbofan that runs on magnets and pepsi

150lbs thrust

Heck..I would just be happy to have finally seen that paper weight Concord Fly..

if its AMT USA that is being referenced here, maybe the great develpoment is that they found a way to stop their engines from seizing ever other run [:@]

I'm guessing a turbine with a mulitistage, axial-flow compressor....

Just got a feeling....[8D]

WOJTEK,
did you ever get your issues resolved?
Scott

no , not yet ... i dropped the engine and all associated components with AMT USA at FloridaJets , and they have had my engine on the back burner since ... I did at FLJ however have the unfortunate chance to see Jack Holland's Jacknife ( amazing plane) have its at450 sieze up mid flight, causing a far off landing atempt which ended up ripping off the horizontal stab [] .. it dies just the same way my at400 usually did [] .. what a shame .. Last i spoke to Jack, he was going to get a AMT NL engine ...


Wojtek

Is there a link between AMT USA and AMT NL ?

used to be years ago, but now none at all ... AMT NL makes some of the best and most reliable engines you can get. AMT USA on the other hand, thats a completely diferent story ..

Wait and see what the future will give you.
It will be a very very nice peace of design.

Wojtek-

I think to be fair, you oughta distinguish here between USA Willytown, WVA, and the new USA Cincinnati....a new entity since last summer.

To my knowledge there has been no Cinncy engine, no Cinncy repair that has had a bearing failure since last Sept when they solved that problem...a problem hidden and passed on from WVA. If they are to be criticized in any respect, then perhaps it's their naivete in not looking deeper into WVA's problems before sale...and then taking the pipe in bending over backwards satisfying WVA's customers that got burned.

I believe you are in that category, no? And Jack Holland's 450....was that a Cinncy repair, or a WVA engine Cinncy actually had nada to do with? Folks are right to be pissed at Jim W.......make that clear....but why transfer that rancor and all the innuendo USA's way?

Ray Davis
USA AMT Field Rep

Ray, I couldn't have said it better. The new AMT overhauled both my mercury's and both have been running perfect. In fact, my first mercury was a "A" model that has over a thousand flights in the 8 years that I have owned it. This turbine has been overhauled twice, once at West Virginia and next at Cincy. It always starts and never had a flame out. I hope they will be around for a long time, just like my Mercs.
Ron

I have had my at400 overhauled 2 times by WV, and 2 more by Cinc ... engine failed after each .... still waiting to get it back ... also, i was promised "warranty repair" and then ended up having to pay, AMT later denying they ever indicated they would honor warranties .. I'm not stupid , and don't appreciate being treated as such by trying to pull the wool over my eyes ..

i understand AMT in Cinc is a new operation, but until issues are resolved, and liabilities honored ( none of this "technical name change" BS) to me AMT USA is AMT USA .... I appreciate the efforts being undertaken, but as for me personally, until I have a 100% working reliable engine, or AMT BUYS my engine back it makes no difference to me ... After so many failures, how can I feel safe putting my at 400 in ANYTHING ?? any of the planes i have had intended for this engine are well over $20K a piece... I wonder what AMT would say if my engine seized again and caused me over $20K in losses ?? hmmmm



Wojtek

Wojtek-

Just trying to understand the picture, here: So, your 400 has been back twice to Cinncy and failed twice afterwards? What were the failures and did they occur after Sept '05? And what was this latest failure that you returned it to USA at FJ...and when did it fail?

If you come back and say 'bearings', then I have been misinformed! I'd truly like to know the exact and accurate details, as I will try and get to the bottom of this and perhaps can help get it resolved.

Ray
AMT USA FIeld Rep

I'm happy so far with my AMT engines....The little NL Merc is three years old and still looks new up the tailpipe...I've just purchased an AMT USA Olympus and only time will tell if it lives up to it's reputation for being a bullet proof beast. My Oly was built before Jim Wiggle Waggle got eaten up by a case of Small Man's Paranoia Syndrome and ran off all of his best workers---When AMT USA was in it's prime..

Woj--I've been flying jets for a long time---A buddy of mine and myself flew some of the first JPX T-240's in the country....He bought a JetCat Hammer (P-80) with serial #8 or #9 (????) We've flown the Golden West turbines too. My buddy flies nothing but JetCat now however he has had his share of problems too---Pre inconel combustion chambers wearing out too soon from coking hot spots, injectors clogging up from insisting that Exxon 2380 was as good as AeroShell 500, engines stopping in mid-flight due to the RPM sensor being exposed to sunlight, and yes, bearings freezing up causing his plane to be damaged by landing in a soybean field just last fall...His Titan ground itself to a halt---Remember the "recall" of some Titans for this and other problems?!?!?!? I can't recall exactly all of the problem but he was pissed that his engine was down for a while. What has kept him with JetCat is the service and electric start. Had AMT engines been equipped with electric start when he got into turbines I would wager he probably would have given AMT the nod instead of JetCat.

Yes Woj---You got burned by Jim in a huge way...You should hunt him down like the dog he is and hand him his nads in a basket in the form of a lawsuit. Give the new AMT USA guys time to work out the AT-400 issues---I'm sure that the reason you don't have your engine back is due to AMT USA making every effort to ensure you and all of the potential AT-400 buyers get a quality product though extremely thorough testing...They know that they only have one shot to make a good impression when they release the AT-400 and don't want to be eaten up by problems..Give them some more time...

Here's a couple of pics of my beast mounted in my KingCat----Wanna race?!?!?!!!!

Kevin

whooo eeeeee

that's a big ol' motor

Yep!!! And man is she a snarling beast when she starts up----Nuthin' like cubic inches to satisfy a certain urge!!!!

Tell us Buck---What's it feel like to be kicked in the ***** by two GE F404's????

Kevin

The bearings were never an issue to begin with. The are the same ones other manufacturers use, and that was all part of the spin … Most turbine experts ( people who fix, assemble, design turbines ) I have discussed the issues with also don’t buy the 4mm vs 5mm oiler / cooling hole being the issue either .. Issues existed with the at450 for years, just no one would come public with them !! there are several engines that ended up either being used as wall ornaments, or finally actually got fixed , however by AMT NL. AMT USA was never able to fully resolve issues, and it’s the same tech at AMT in Cinc now as were in OH .. no offense, but their track record is not so good … When AMT USA was first bought out, I was told that the expertise of AMT NL was being sought out to resolve a lot of the issues … last I was told this was not the case …( I was also told when AMT was first bought out that all warranties would be honored and my engine would be fixed under them once the move to Cinc was settled in … this ended up NOT being the case )

As for my engine and its repairs in Cincinnati:

Repair #1: I sent my engine up completely seized up (The repair prior [ one of many] was done by AMT back in WV …
) , it sounded like a rattle can. I had been told at a time earlier by John Ligons that all would be fixed under warranty, and was asked to wait a few MONTHS to send the engine in for repair as the new facility in Cinc was already backed up with repairs and new engine orders.. so I obliged … when the engine was finally looked at, AMT tried to stuff me with a $600 bill for repairs !!! can anyone say ILLEGAL WARRANTY VIOLATION ??? I settled to pay ½ ….. like 1 or 2 flights on the at400 just back from repair, and it flames out on me AGAIN IN FLIGHT !!! .. the shaft was stuck at first when I tried to move it, but it did budge free, and the engine did spin over, however now with a clingidy clang sound coming from it ( I have 2 witnesses who were there that can attest to this )

Repair #2: when the enginee was sent in AGAIN, AMT claimed they found nothing wrong with it … hmmmmmmm BS !! there was definitely something wrong with it, and that was physically with the turbine itself ! ( the clanging noises and temporarily stuck shaft) AMT claimed to have completely rebuilt the engine from new parts this time around and just kept the same outer case … hmmmm why not just give me a new turbine then ?? I personally do not think my engine was actually ever “completely rebuilt” … but that’s left to my speculations so I won’t go there … so I mount the engine back up again, and it still does not run right .. it has a tendency to want to flam out whenever decelerating down to near idle, and this is also observed with somewhat thick puffs of white smoke. The engine ended up flaming out in flight on me again while it was at around 1/3 throttle … this time the only thing different was that the engine was not seized or have any other signs of “physical “ damage on the turbine itself … I know my install was immaculate, and there was no issue with the fuel system here. I could possibly buy the idea that now its an issue with the ECU or fuel pump, but that would not have had anything to do with all the prior “physical” failures. From the info I have gathered based on several experts I have spoken to, seems to point to incorrectly set or faulty injectors amongst other things .. AMT so fae has never been able to give ANYONE am honest answer on what the real issues with the 450 and 400 engines are !!! no one buys the 4mm vs 5mm hole BS …. Talk to any non-AMT USA turbine expert who works with these daily and see what they say about this ….


I ended up dropping my engine and all related components off at the AMT booth at FLJ … I did not have the chance to speak to John Ligons there ( I was too busy enjoying my JetCat p120 which seemed to run as reliably as ever) and in an email he expressed his disappointment over this to me …. Quite frankly, I don’t care for excuses, or more attempts to blur reality … Lies were told, liabilities were not accounted for, and I still do not have an engine that runs, i also would not mind getting my $300 back which I used to pay for WARRANTY REPAIRS !!

So now lets say that when they yet again get to my engine one day, and fix it , how am I ever supposed to run it in an plane worth anything ?? I offered AMT the opportunity to take the easy route out, and just buy the engine back off of me, but seems like they’d rather risk another AT400 possibly failing and facing the potential liabilities from that ( I sure am not flipping the bill for any planes lost due to bad engineering on AMT’s part )




Keving, I had the at400 on my KingCat as well … flew her very well… only pushed her to 250 something, but definitely had a lot more in there .. verticals were also great … landings were sometimes a chalange as the engine seized OFTEN [] If I had to do it over again now, id go for the p180 instead .. 5 more lbs thrust, same great spool up, same price, and as reliable as they come ...

Because he is in the right. Period. It's not only disingenous, but contrary to the law, for AMT Cincy to think they can just take over the line and the name and not the liability. And it's just bad business. Was whatever they charged Woj to repair his dud engine WORTH all this? They need to honor the warranty. No less.
If he takes them to court(what I would have done already, it's a $4500 paperweight), he will find the law is not going to accept the "no backsies!" type of defense("oh, now we are Advanced MINIATURE Turbines, not Advanced MICRO Turbines!"), it does not work that way. Hope we never find that out. But I'm right, any lawyer worth his salt would clean AMT's clock in a heartbeat.

That's up to Woj, he can keep sending this engine and his Visa card number around the country, or he can use legal means to get remedy, but I just wanted to weigh in my useless two cents, and say it's neither right nor realistic nor legal, and I hate to use this word, "fair", for AMTusa to run from their responsibility, and nobody should be condoning it, either.
Jetcat would never pull this. AMTnl would never do this, either.

Curtis, At the point i chose to, i can have AMT "legally" dealt with at any moment .. I know where the law stands clearly on this ... I deal with contract lawyers on a regular basis in preparing "legalese" documents for my job engagements. I'm fully aware of how this can be dealt with ... it would cost AMT more to secure a lawyer in NJ to review a case alone than it would for them to buy the engine back. By the way what AMT is doing is also a FTC violation ( this was after all and interstate transaction) , which puts them in even more hot water ..

I know you are probably wondering "why" ... but I’m going to give them a chance to do what is right one more time on this , however I have kept a pretty strict diary of all that has been happening including all the LIES about warranty work ..



Wojtek

I had to sue two people this week. Reached a point where all the back-and-forth was going in circles, had just had enough. That's what the court system is for. Looks like one is going to settle already. We shall see about the other. But I don't need someone sucking up my time endlessly with back and forth nonsense...I can get my back and forth nonsense right here on the innnnernets!
In the old days, you would either joust or duel with pistols, whoever won was in the right. So simple!

I also tend to think that once you file suit, they will fix you up pretty fast, and not want to go back and forth in court. That happens a lot, people see you MEAN to follow up, and they act accordingly.

Quite frankly, I don't know that there is any absolute truth, here, but I'm in agreement that regardless of the history/legalities, Cinncy has accepted Wojtek's 400 for repair, apparently several times now I've learned...and they need to deal w/ it forthwith. Free or not...whatever the arrangement turns out to be....fight that then. So, for the moment, let's get past the right or wrong re USA Cinncy's obligations, legal or otherwise. I'm not the judge of that; we've heard ET's thoughts on this ad nauseum. No mas, please. My sole objective in this is to get Wojtek's engine back to him in the perfect working order it ought to be, and ASAP. Then, I would hope he will extoll it's virtures as vociferously as he has knocked it!

Incidentally, my 400 (from WV) never had the time on it Wojteks' had, never had 'bearing' problems, but did experience many of Wojtek's latest indications (e.g., FOs on throttle-downs), and was returned to WV. It got shipped from WV to Cinncy when the sale went thru, was initially returned sluggish/still w/ somewhat same problems last summer. Returned again to me last Sept, problems understood/fixes known, and completely gone over re any bearing 'residuals', etc. Fix for that characterized as 'wrong size holes', FO prevention requiring a newly designed 'stick' (fuel atomizer) to eliminate actual evaporization and subsequent leaning out...esp coming down. The 400 as it was meant to be.

Half-dozen test stand runs, then perhaps a dozen flights last fall, all perfect; now about to start a new season. I've hung in w/ Cinncy, though at times, certainly no less frustrated than Wojtek relates. There is just no excuse not to ship less than perfect engines, IMO. I sincerly believe Cinncy has that capability, has had for months, that that is the operating credo. Just yesterday, John assured me again, USA is viable and moving ahead; the 400s out of Cinncy USA are now perfect. I've no reason not to think that true. Additionally, electric starts have been shipped for the 450 and 280 for over a month, the 400 ES in a few weeks, the 180 next.

He's at Toledo. Next week, I will speak w/ him again, convince him that no matter the history here, there is only one way to resolve this: Get it back, and perfect, to Wojtek, and forthwith. A priority, as the fixes are long known/easily accomplished....certainly not a problem w/ the USA operation now portrayed. Only after return, and Woj happy, should USA and Woj duke it out re costs....because on the face of this, USA importantly needs to put this episode behind them, so as to fully regain the AMT reputation, their loyal customer base, and attract new buyers.

Ray Davis
USA AMT Field Rep