Anyone have any views on the new IJMC rules. Seems the builder of the model rule is scrapped and there are now just two classes based on weight, 13.5 and 20 kg.

Comments anyone?
Regards.

David Gladwin.

what the heck is IJMC?

[img] http://www.firstmonday.org/issues/is...e-3oct2001.gif [/img]

Well these two posts are a great start to what I hoped would become a meaningful discussion, so : Rule changes and additions for 2008 on:

The two previous classes of Individual and Team have been scrapped in favour of the new 13.5Kg and 20Kg classes.

13.5 kg Class: 13.5 kg max dry weight, with the upper wet weight limit not to exceed the hosting nations regulation max take off weight of a model.

20 kg Class: 20 kg max dry weight, with the upper wet weight limit not to exceed the hosting nations regulation max take off weight of a model.


Builder of the model rule (rule 2.0.2) has been now deleted.


Length of the competition has now been set at 7 days maximum to include the opening and closing ceremonies


There will now be two sets of judges to make the event shorter, comprising of a set of static and a set of flying judges.



The competition will remain 50/50 static to flying.



Unlimited Gyro use has been retained, but a new rule I proposed was passed:
The use of auto levelling, GPS autopilots, mechanical autopilots or other autominous flight devises and/or systems is prohibited.


There will be no K factoring of manoeuvres and the following manoeuvres have been removed.
• External stores drop (would still be allowed when called to clean up airframe but not as an option)
• Victory rolls (with simple exit options)
• Normal Horizontal Roll
• Slow Flight Clean
• 360° Horizontal Circle for aerobatic types (also deleted for safety reasons)
• Inverted flight
• Knife edge flight
• Extend and Retract Flaps/Spoilers etc. (all types)




Test flight of the model has to be declared before the start of the event, by a signing of the new model declaration form. This will put the stop to test flights at the JWM on buddy leads. The new Contestant’s Declaration Sheet contains the following:

Place of competition
Last name, first name
Country
Type of model
Class entered
Date of first flight of prototype
Popularity during last 2 JWM
Model origin
Test flight declaration
Consequences of a false declaration



Static judges will from now on be allowed to confer to harmonize static scores.



The new flight groups will be as follows with competitors having to select one manoeuvre from each of the groups for a given flight round:

Group 1 (combined manoeuvres of high difficulty)

• Touch and Go (all types)
• Horizontal Figure of Eight (all types)
• Cuban Eight (aerobatic only)
• Combination Immelman/Reversal (aerobatic only)
• Horizontal Derry Eight (aerobatic only)
• Immelman – VG wing

This would force all pilots to do a highly difficult manoeuvre in each flight

Group 2 (mainly difficult rolling manoeuvres)

• Slow roll (aerobatic only)
• 4-Point Roll (aerobatic only)
• Positive �G’ Roll (aerobatic only)
• Cobra Roll (aerobatic only)
• Two Axial Horizontal Rolls, one in each direction (aerobatic only)
• 360° Wing-extending Turn – VG wing
• Chandelle (non aerobatic option only)
• 360 degree descending circle (all types)

Group 3 (manoeuvres requiring configuration change)

• Extend and Retract Landing Gear (all types)
• Overshoot (all types)
• Slow Flight (“dirty” configuration) (all types)
• Barrel roll with landing gear down (“dirty” configuration) (aerobatic only)

Group 4 (mainly easier vertical manoeuvres)

• Immelman Turn (aerobatic only)
• Half Cuban Eight (aerobatic only)
• Half Reverse Cuban Eight (aerobatic only)
• One Inside Loop (aerobatic only)
• Split “S” (aerobatic only)
• Flight in triangular circuit (non aerobatic option only)
• Procedure Turn (non aerobatic option only)

Group 5 (other difficult rolling manoeuvres)

• Victory Roll (only third exit option to be retained) (aerobatic only)
• Inverted Normal Axial Horizontal Roll (aerobatic only)
• Normal Vertical Roll (aerobatic only)
• Two Axial Horizontal Rolls in the same direction (aerobatic only)
• Derry procedure turn (aerobatic only)
• Flight in rectangular circuit (non aerobatic option only)
• 360° Horizontal Circle (non aerobatic option only)



There is now a new Bonus system of points to be added to the final score. This comprises of the following:

Vintage bonus (50 points max)

Originality bonus (50 points max)

Designer bonus (50 points max)

Full details on these will be explained in the new 2008 IJMC rule book out soon on www.ijmc.net


There will be a Organiser’s Manual produced. The IJMC Chairman is currently working on compiling a detailed Organiser’s Manual. This is to help future organisers in their task in view of past problems at the JWM.

I'm curious if there is no builder of the model rule what kind of competition is this becoming??? You pay to play.... sounds like a great modelling competition to me.

thats pretty funny wayne!

David, thanks for answering my question....I guess it wasn't that important.
Oh well, it sounds as if your talking about the World Jet Masters? ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz zzz!

IJMC - International Jet Modeling Committee

David,
I think I feel like it about like David does, it takes away from the competition. Now it will become a pocketbook model cometition where those with the bucks can show up and get a high score (especially since the weight of the static scores, as I understand it, did not change). The new rules supposedly were a way to make the smaller models more competitive since the larger models (ie, Hawks) were dominating the scene. I think the steps were to drastic. It should have used a rule simlar to what Frank Tiano uses at Top Gun, a three year rule where essentially a model cannot be used again without signifcant changes. I would like to have seen a winning model essentially retired where that same model cannot be used again in the next competition, and if the same model is used by the same pilot a deduction is given.

There was nothing wrong with the builder of the model rule, if it would have been enforced universally. There is no reason why a pilot who shows up for static judging cannot sign a statement in front of the head judge that declared he is the builder of the model, and at that point and time his classification (expert/pro) is dtermined and he is scroed in that manner. I submitted this rule, and noted in the minutes of the last IJMC meeting that it was never discussed, or at least not noted in the minutes.

I was extremely happy to see there are now two sets of judges, however I am confused by the lack of enthusiasm to run two flight lines. Cannot two models be flown safely at the same time? I mean here we do this all the time and it is not a problem, is would certainly provide an avenue to speed up the process, and maybe we could even incorperate more flights.
Tommy

Hey David,

I'm glad to see the maneuver changes, but the builder of the model rule?? Hmm, I guess it's great for the skilled builders of the world, lol. They'll stay busy now I would think. Plus, there were always some that never built there model but claimed they did, you can't deny that 100% (not sure who, but I'm sure there's been at least 1).

I like the 2 sets of judges ruling, still would prefer something shorter than 7 days though, but better than 10 I guess.

I'm very curious to see what qualifies as a "bonus" according to the new rules.

Is the weight class designated by dry weight?

Since it's almost a "checkbook" competition, the least they should do is remove the gyro's, maybe allow 1 designated for rudder only. Because lets face it, no matter who you are, you'll never outfly a gyro, and a good pilot with gyro's is very difficult to beat.

The JWM 2009 will be on from the 6th-13th of August 2009.

FYI:

There were a total of 51 rule change proposals this AGM meeting last weekend 19th Jan 2008. The IJMC meet after going throught them all and condensed the proposals to match all the changes sent.

The 13 countries present at the meeting voted on these new changes and what Dave G has posted is a quick synopsis of the main points of the meeting.

The meeting ran from 10am to 7pm and everyone offered different views like the ones posted here.

The problem about changing rules just because it sounds good, is that it can effect other rules adversly and this was a major consideration of all posposals.

The IJMC web site will have the full and complete 2008 rule book posted as soon as all the changes have been made. www.ijmc.net

We all know that not everyone will be happy with changes to certain rules, but that is why 13 countries were there to have a say and to vote on the issues.

FWIW: I for one agree with Dave Shulman about the gyro thing. I made a porposal to only alow just rudder or nosewheel steering gyros, but it was defeated. That's life . . . pure and simple ! ! !
However, as this comp "does" allow gyros, then I am going to be fitting them to my model to have a better chance of a better place at the next masters. Like Dave Shulman said to me at the last masters, not fitting gyros during the comp is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. Simple as that.

Cheers

Davie

Just curious … unless there is a problem whereby most competitors don’t know how to install and configure gyros, why would those who think they are being beaten by a gyro not just install gyros in THEIR models in order to re-establish a level playing field ?

In other words, if “a good pilot with a gyro is very difficult to beat”, but you put 20 of the best pilots with gyros together, they are still gonna come out ranked 1 -> 20 somehow, right ? What causes that ranking, and how much does that process and results-set differ compared to when those exact same 20 best pilots compete without the gyro ?

That’s not sarcasm BTW, I really want to understand.

I realise that the gyro smoothes out the flight in order to make it look better, but there again, so can e.g. expo - and I haven’t heard any suggestions that all competitors must fly without expo, rates, flight modes, mixing, or a host of other common techniques that the purist could argue are obscuring some aspect of a pilot’s flying skills by helping to mask imperfections that might otherwise show up in his flying. Why is a gyro (a NON-RUDDER gyro, at that), so much more of a threat than any of the other techniques that are in common use ?

Gordon

Guys

I note that David Gladwin states that "The competition will now be limited to 7 days maximum including opening & closing ceremonies". Looking at the calendar published by David Matthews it appears that the competition will run from 5th - 13th August excluding 3 practice and registration days which by my calculations is 9 days so it seems to be almost the same length as the last WJM which many of us criticised for being toooo loooong! If you wish to take advantage of the practice days it is still a two week event.

John

Dave,
Don't get me wrong, I think the last WJM caused such a ruckus amongst the governing body that there were just too many new rules requests to have to address each one individually. I applaud the governing body for taking steps to shorten the event, I hope they are successful.

It is extremely hard for the non-European countries to be at every IJMC meeting, given the time required for travel and cost of such.

gordon, I think Shui's comment probably reflected the thoughts that we all had at the last meet. It makes no sense not to use them if every other hotdog pilot in the world has them on their plane and you are being scored similar to them despite not using it. In essence it is to your disadvantage no to use one for this very reason. I agree with you though, if you have 20 top pilots, and they are all using them, the ranking should be the same.
Tommy

Simply put, at the JWM in NI a lot of the competitors installed gyros on all 3 axis' of their models. That's why I proposed for the removal of gyros, but allowing them on the nosewheel (safety) and rudder only (fishtailing). Better than another argument for their ban proposed by another party stating gyros are too expensive . . . .

But as I said, it is allowed, so lets just fit them and have done with it.




John,

Again the event is actually only 7 days long. The free day on the Saturday, is a religious day in Isreal, so nobody will be working or flying that day. The Airshow day is just that, and nothing to do with the JWM competition. The practice days are optional for all pilots. So the actuall event is 7 days long.




I fully understand this as does the IJMC board. Lets hope if the USA are making a bid for 2011, you or some of the lads might be there at the Jan 2009 meeting.

Tommy,


The IJMC has passed the use of two sets of judges after the extreme work load of the judges at the JWM 07.

This means that there are now 5 judges for static (3 for outline and 2 for colour, marking, etc) That is their job.

There are now 5 judges for flying rounds. As you know these 5 judges mark all flights. That is their job.

On top of this there is the chief judge.

Having a second flight line means having to get another set of 5 judges. More cost to the organisers and therefore more cost to the competitor.




Take Top Gun. There are only 2 judges per flight/model in flight, so you can have the 4 flight lines at Top Gun.

Take the TOC. Only one aircraft in the air with more judges like JWM.

It's simply down to costs and the available pool of judges that the IJMC and JWM organisers have to choose from, hense the call to all IJMC reps from Dave Tappin, throgh the IJMC web site, at the early part of January for contries to propose more judges from their perspective countries. There have not been many applications in yet, in fact there was only one or two at the time of the meeting on the 19th, so there would be little chance of running 2 flight lines with out the new judges in the first instance.



Oh the fun of it all, eh ! ! ! !

There is now a new Bonus system of points to be added to the final score. This comprises of the following:

Vintage bonus (50 points max) goes like this . . . . .

Pre 1940 subject gets 50 points.
Pre 1941 subject gets 48 points.
Pre 1942 subject gets 46 points.
Pre 1943 subject gets 44 points.
.
.
Pre 1963 subject gets 4 points.
Pre 1964 subject gets 2 points.
from 1965 on subject gets 0 points.

This system will be based on the recorded first flight of the subject and mark or the subject as defined in the Jane's Aviation Book.



Originality bonus (50 points max) goes like this . . . . .

If the subject you are choosing to fly at this JWM has been entered and scorred at the last 2 JWM's then the pionts are as follows:

13 subjects and more gets 0 points.
12 subjects gets 2 points.
11 subjects gets 6 points.
.
.
.
2 subjects gets 42 points.
1 subject gets 46 points.
0 subjects gets 50 points.

Designer bonus (50 points max) goes like this . . . . .

Full composite kit gets 0 points.
Traditional kit (with foam or built-up wings) gets 10 points.
Own design kit prototype gets 30 points
One off own design gets 50 points.

It was decided by the IJMC to undercompensate rather than over compensate these bonus pionts so the IJMC/JWM wouldn't face the problems the FAI/F4C did with the bonus's awarded to biplanes in the past and the problems it caused. It has been added to the scoring system to in someway encourage new designs and older type aircraft at the JWM rather than just BAE Hawks, L-39s and F-15's as seen at the past JWM




Yes it is Dave.

Dave

Ok!! you are right there are seven competition days but the latest realistic day for arrival would be Tuesday 4th August with earliest departure on the 13th. Whether the Saturday is a holiday or not we still need to be there for that day. So, as far as I am concerned it is still a two week event by the time you travel there and back, not a seven day event!

John

Dave,
Thanks for clarifying some of the bonus questions, that makes things a little more clear, and I think makes a nice addition to the contest and will stimulate the builders to go for something unique rather than the same thing.

I wonder though why the judges used for static cannot also be used as flight line judges, thus you could operate two flight lines. I would not want to see one as in Top Gun with four planes in the air, but two is not too many. The TOC is a little different from what I have seen, more hovering and close in aerobatics. I know the powers that be do not favor two flight lines, and I am playing the devil's advocate, not intentionally trying to be an ass, sorry....

The US is working on trying to get some judges nominated for the pool. The training session may create a little problem in getting them there and properly regimented, but we hope to add at least two to the pool in the future.
Tommy

Hi John,

Problem is, no matter where the event is held, you still have to travel and the organisers can't be held responsible for that one. When I was the the JWM in Thailand in 2001, I had to wait in London for an extra full week for my box to arrive back to the UK, so that year the JWM was 3 weeks long . . . well for one competitor anyway When I go to the USA for a 2-3 day event, with travel and set-up the event takes 1 week, but it is still only a 2-3 day event and not a week long event.

Certainly, when the next JWM is held in another country, here would probably be no religious days, but they might have a lot of rain, or something else to make the need for a free day. What the IJMC has said, is that the organisers, for this and all future JWM's have to shorten the event down and this has been done with the addition of more judges to get the flights done earlier.

If the event is too long then it might be wise to consider a different competition with less pilots taking part and a different format. There are plenty out there. But this one is where all jets get to fly in the one comp together. Something worth considering and if we are all going to this JWM, then we all will have our models flown and practiced with so there should be no need for any of the practice days, I would hope.

Dave

That was the sole intention of the proposal. Something Philip Avonds and others like myself have been looking for for some time. Any insentive to produce a 'real' piece of original craftsmanship has to be better than none at all.



Ping off an email to Dave Tappin (contacts section of the IJMC web site) He Knows more about the judging side of things than I.




Good news on the USA judges Tommy. Great to see and I am sure Dave Tappin will be glad to here it.

Tommy

I know that two flight lines was talked about, the feeling was that it would put a lot of countries off hosting an event, think of the area we fly over, it would need to be a big strip-then what about the safety-do you employ spotters to watch the other line just incase a model goes out of control heading for the second line where the crowd are consentrating on that lines flying? Too dangerous in my book.

The Gyro thing I was against too, but the idea is we build the most scale like aeroplanes that fly in the most scale like fashion, many full sized aeroplanes have gyros...like many have said, you can all use them, make a rule " The model control system should include a gyro" we don't think about leaving out servos so why not?
I would be happy if the judges gave the same degree of criticism to the big floaty quaker/Junior 60 landing and taking off manouvres seen by some models. Scale flight...I couldn't stop smiling at the acceptance of something so "un-scale"

Dave Wilshere

Gordon,

A gyro inputs the control for you before you even realize you needed to correct. Exponential softens the control input which still must be applied by the pilot.

Granted, if the top 20 all have gyro's, things will still work out with 1-20th placing. What I'm getting at is to make the competition more difficult, to show true skill. I'd admit, flying with gyro's was very nice, made everything look great, but I'd still rather they be eliminated. I mean, the competition is about 2 things - static, and flying. Let's not take the fun/adventure out of the flying part!

The only thing I think the gyro's do for the competition is make the presentation much better overall, which is great for the competition, but I feel it softens the skill level necessary for the pilots in some respects. Maybe I'm way off base, but it's just my opinion on it.

And Dave - I agree with you completely on the landings!!!! Even many of the take-off's seemed too short to me.

D

I like big models...its just the the Hawks need to weight 30kg plus (dry) to look anywhere near right!

D

I agree with Shulman. Gyros are for girls!
Or for eating with fries.

Guys
Looking forward to meet you all in Israel.
My biggest problem in Israel will not be the competition, it will be the heat. I will practise in a sauna 7 days a week and hopfully my body will handle the heat so my brain works in an acceptable way (I did not say perfect way! Not that easy...)...
Maybe I should go there a month before...

Best regard
Anders Wikman