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Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Old 03-30-2010, 08:20 AM
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Ali
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Default Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Hi guys,
Pre sales on this new 2 meter Viper from Xtreme jets have really taken me by surprise. I dont know why as the big Viper was superb and this one is if anything an all round more attractive product.
I seem to have spent the last few days doing nothing else other than talking VJ2m's. I am pleased to say a fair few orders coming through. Now as happy as I am to take these pre orders and make the sales, I really do like to try and keep all my customers aware of what they are buying. I am really proud to represent, sell and fly the Skymaster/ Xtreme jets, and hope to do so for some time to come. I honestly believe that they are "up there" with some of the very best ARTF jet manufactures in this small industry. Anton's design skills really shine through in the way the models fly, and Lai Ki's undercarriages are in a league of their own. But at the same time I know they are not perfect. I truly believe that there is not a single product on the market right now that is.
The chances of having imperfections or "issues" with such products as an all composite, painted in the mould jet are high. High enough that some of the greats of this industry even address them in the opening pages of their instructions. When I sell an ARTF jet ( From any supplier ) I try and make the customer aware, that there is a good chance that there maybe some aspects of the model that they are not happy with. I have learnt that expectations differ greatly. What may be one mans perfection is no way near for another.
With this in mind, I try and be as up front and open about the way things are with each kit. I also try and get as much experience hands on with the products that I sell. Sure I am not a prolific builder as such, and do use the services of numerous builders and painters to assist me with my display models. I have proven that I can build if need be, the simple fact is that I just do not have the time to build. I am too busy either prepping, maintaining or working on the flying models either in my fleet or being built for customers. What this does give me is a pretty good understanding of whats required to get and keep a modern ARTF jet in the air.
I have written a list of my experiences with the new VJ2m, and instead of reserving it just for my customers, and those ordering planes through my company, I have decided to post it out there for all to see. Hopefully this will be of some use/ benefit to those who already have the Viper or are considering getting one.
I will try to update it as time goes on, as I am sure to find out new things as I go, but feel free to post any of your findings and hopefully we can share information on this jet and makes things better.
Regards Al
Old 03-30-2010, 08:21 AM
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Ali
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.


Canopy.. Needs to have a small carbon pin installed in the from edge around the 12 oclock position to stop sideward flex when fitted to fuselage
I suggest that you fit the cockpits to the canopy tub as this makes operation much easier when you remove the canopy as all of the radio tray/ tanks is accessible with ease. Both my VJ2m's have arrived with the plastic canopy tubs fibre glassed from the factory. Long may this continue as this makes them far more durable, especially when you are resting the canopy/ cockpit tub combo on them frequently. If yours arrived not glassed then I suggest this mod is made
Fuel tank. Ideally it needs the hole for the bung to go through lowering so its nearer the middle of the tank, thus allowing the clunk more space to move around the tank while doing aeros. I also suggest the use of BVM poly tubing for a more flexible clunk set up
I would also suggest for those using P-80 size turbines that they fit a second tank. I am using a Dubro 40 Oz tank on top of the intakes and this added to the 2.3L standard tank gives me a happy 8 mins with a P-80 SE.

Gear doors.
The standard from factory set up works perfectly on the ground but blows open in the air. It needs the attachment points moving away from the hinge points for mechanical advantage. To do this means moving the cylinders away from the horizontal location in the bottom of the fuselage to a vertical.

Servo horns.
To get the desired amount of travel on the control surfaces quite long horns need to be fitted onto the servos to get the linkage up and away from the wing/ Stab and rudder surface.

Wing root
I suggest that a small square of 1/6th ply be fitted where the screw goes through to secure the wing. Without it it is very easy to over tighten this screw and crust the root rib on either wing or fuselage as there is a gap there.
On this subject... I do not use the normal suggested fixing of a screw through the fuselage into the captive nut pre installed into the wing root. Instead I screw a 4mm bolt into the captive nut so that it is permanently installed in the wing root. it then protrudes into the fuselage so I can simply reach in from the wheel well and bolt on a 4mm wing nut. I find this far easier than getting under the model with a 4mm bolt and allen key to do it up.

The gap between flap and aileron is very very tight. I found it necessary to sand/ bevel the edge of flap and aileron to allow more movement. Also I found as standard if the flap moved upward the slightest amount from its neutral point the two surfaces could bind. 5 mins with a file or scuff board took care of this.

My first VJ2m had quite some movement in the stabs when attached by the single factory fitted bolt from the underside. I drilled another 3mm bolt into the rear carbon spar. I then installed a balsa dowling into the tube so it could be tapped out ( Then thin CA'd to reinforce the thread) Thus eliminating any forward and aft movement in the stab set up. A bit belt and braces I know but I just dont like movement in a flying surface.

While at the back end. I suggest installing a balsa sheet between the tailpipe and the area where the servo wires go through the stab root and connect with the stab servos. The reason being that it would be all too easy to connect the stab servos to the extension leads inside the fuselage and push them into the fuselage to get them out the way. This would mean that they would come in contact with the tailpipe which is not a good idea. The balsa sheet acts as a barrier for the extensions to sit on away from tailpipe

On the subject of tailpipe...
My current 2m is running with zero nose weight, even with a P-80 Se installed. ( The first needed a fair few ounces of lead to balance) The reason being as follows..
On VJ2m number 1 I installed standard size JR 8411's in the stabs. I just felt safer this way as its my tried ands tested servo set up. On model number 2 I went with the suggested Midi size servo and fitted the JR DS3201. This is a plastic geared 4 KG of power digital midi servo. I know to some this will appear to be too small and under spec a servo, and I have to admit I was dubious. But to date I have had 4 flights with this servo set up and pushed the model as hard as I can with repetitive positive and negative snaps. Continuos rolling loops and cuban eights. Square loops, constant loops ( Both inside and outside) Tightening in diameter till the model eventually snapped out and some very aggressive and high speed pull to push manoeuvres at high speeds. Basically a flight envelope outside of what I would expect top see of a jet of this type, and have had no issues, flutter or even a feel of control surface response fading.
I am happy to recommend a midi servo set up, but fully understand why some may want to use smaller servos. To these end users I would say, it is possible to fit 8411 size servos. it does require some careful work sanding out the servo carrier rib in the stab and the surrounding area, just be aware you may need to add nose weight to counteract the extra weight of the larger servos so far aft in the model.
On the second model the turbine was also moved forward some ways compared top the first. I still have another 2-3 inches that I could go but the restricting factor is the tailpipe length. On this model I have moved the turbine as far forward as I dare ( I have 1.5 inches between tail cone of the P-80 to the inlet to the tailpipe ) and even then I have had to cut down the cosmetic bolt on tail come that bolts on to the outside of the fuselage by approximately 2 inches. This is not noticeable and was only a precautionary measure to stop the thin fibreglass from melting. I have also added a coat of heat shield paint to the inside of the remaining tail cone just to be safe. So far I have seen no distortion of this tail cone, but will be sure to update as time goes on if this changes.
I guess all of the above is just a heads up to say to owners that it is finally possible to get a nice scale jet without having to add nose weight, or huge batteries to balance. You just need to be aware that a bit of attention to the very back end of the model will pay dividends.

The ventral fins on both my models have come loose. I must say not in normal use but rather when I caught them loading them in the van. As when the model sits on its belly they are very low and easily knocked. Both times the same thing happened in that the 3mm threaded rod broke free from inside the ventral fin. What I do know is drill a 4mm hole through the inside skin of the ventral fin ( So it is not visible when they are fitted) I then pour rocked powder in and around the the thread of the rod inside the ventral and cyno to harden. You could use epoxy/ aeropoxy just be mindful of the weight added to the back end.
Some will argue that it is better that these fins are easily detached if knocked so will choose not to do this mod, which is fine as they have never come loose in the air.


Ref the finish of the model..
So far the only VJ2m's that I have seen or had experience of have been painted in the mould examples. The initial impression of these as they come out of the box has not been great. With both myself and customers commenting on the dull finish of the paint work, and appearances of quite a few surface blemishes and imperfections. This is one of the draw backs I guess of a paint in the mould finish. The good news is that it's not all as bad as it first appears. I have found that most of the imperfections seem to be removable, and the dull finish is also workable. Both my models have had a few hours spent by me in T cutting and polishing the top coat, which has in both cases transformed the appearance of the model. I found that I could remove many if not all of the finger prints or marks which seem to be in the release agent. Then a polish with a good car polish really helped bring the top coat to a good shine. I am sure many of those that have seen either of my vipers up close can testify to that?

I also found that a little bit of time spent on markings makes a world of difference. I have worked with a great vinyl guy here in the UK to make a complete sticker sheet that really helps transform the VJ2M. These include the following .
2x Viperjet 2m logos ( just no 2m for those with the larger ones )
2x Als Hobbies ( These will be free and for customer to use as they please )
2x Chrome fuel fill caps
2x Chrome Vents for rear under tail near tailpipe
2x Chrome circles with rivets for rear side of fuselage
2x Chrome without rivets ( same area as above)
8x Chrome vent holes for vents on the very front of the nose
2x Spektrum stickers
2x Jet Cat stickers
the above can be changed by request
200 Chrome rivets
40 smaller chrome rivets that will work for the rivets around the apu exhaust on rear side of fuselage and if you want to they also look good going down the side of the intakes.
As well as lots of lengths of 3mm black trim line that when applied to the line between yellow and white really makes that contrast stand out.

All in all I spend an entire evening on just the appearance of the model. Between the T cut, polish and sticker application. I really do think this is a worthwhile exercise as it transforms the model.

The equipment list of what I have used in the model is as follows.

Jet Cat P-80 Se
JR 8411 x 5. Ail. Flap and rudder JR super servo horns on flaps. After market longer horns on Rudder and ailerons to get throw ( These were one hole longer than JR horns)
JR 3201 x 2 Stab with JR super servo horns to get movement required.
Hitec 645 steering
Spektrum 12100 Power safe Receiver
Airpower EV5u multi valve and sequencer
I changed my door rams to BVM 3" stroke ( Mains only. nose is stock)
3300 Mah Jet Cat Lipo for ECU
2x 2500 AA size Nimh 6volt RX packs. All bats in the nose section either side of nose retract bearers.
Dubro 40 Oz tank as secondary Tank
UAT ( or equivalent)
BBI/ Dragon Pilot in front seat only .

We are currently working on a really professional set of wing bags for the 2M. They will be a smaller set of what we have already for the Big Viper jet and go along way to helping protect your pride and joy. I will update when these are available.

Sorry to waffle on, but these are things I have picked up from my experiences and I hope they may help new or possible VJ2M customers. If you have any questions then please feel free to email me directly on [email protected]


I will try to follow up soon with some photos of various things on my 2M as well as an accurate centre of gravity and what control throws that I am using.





Regards,

Ali Machinchy, Al's Hobbies
Managing Director
www.alshobbies.com
Old 03-30-2010, 09:26 AM
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BlackCloud
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Thanks Al,
Very kind you you to take the time to post such detailed information on the VJ2M.
I know I will reference it when my kit arrives as will many others.
Great information to know ahead of time. Thanks for sharing.
Cheers,
Mark
Old 03-30-2010, 11:02 AM
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J.David
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Thank you very much for the information Ali, Will be very interested if you can post some pictures obout this.

Old 03-30-2010, 11:14 AM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Al, is Anton taking these changes on board for future runs? Could be tempted by one of the little chaps in the summer once all the bugettes are ironed out....
Old 03-30-2010, 11:24 AM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Thinking about this plane-I saw the yellow/white/black scheme and it looked great. Thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed, comprehensive review of the squawks. More sellers should do this. Scotty
Old 03-30-2010, 11:32 AM
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Joe C
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Thanks Ali for that report on the 2m Viper, I have one in the shop with Henry of course doing the build. Joe C!!
Old 03-30-2010, 11:56 AM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

if skymaster jets need this much work, how much do you have to do to other makes?
Old 03-30-2010, 12:37 PM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

a lot.........depending on brand. I've been caught out by some of the other manufactures models requiring major changes to bring them up to a standard I would be happy giving to a customer as a turnkey jet. We all have differing standards and I'm probably one of the hardest to please...............in my experience SM Models have less to do than their competition.

Its great to see a distributor tackling the models issues head on......


Alex
Old 03-30-2010, 01:25 PM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Ali,
Thanks for the tutorial on the 2M Viper very helpful.
I think the JR 3201 are similar to the US JR 3421 which feature a metal gear train.
I have one question...........what does T Cut stand for in the other English language?
Thanks,
Bob

One week behind me on my Viper Jet order and waiting!
Old 03-30-2010, 07:46 PM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Ali

This is great, this is exactly what I was looking for in the email I sent to you a couple of days ago. This is going to be my first turbine and this is very helpful. I plan on placing order in another couple weeks. Just wish you were able to sell these to us in the states...your support on any question is amazing. Thank You
Old 03-31-2010, 04:56 AM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.


ORIGINAL: R_Belluomini

Ali,
Thanks for the tutorial on the 2M Viper very helpful.
I think the JR 3201 are similar to the US JR 3421 which feature a metal gear train.
I have one question...........what does T Cut stand for in the other English language?
Thanks,
Bob

One week behind me on my Viper Jet order and waiting!
T-Cut is a very mild cutting compound, used to flatten back orange peel and dull areas of paint.

Ali

Wonderful as usual, problem is, its becoming normal to get this kind of service from you.

Mike
Old 04-01-2010, 05:23 PM
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R Pursall
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Thanks Ali
This will be really useful when my kit arrives from you soon
Cant wait

Richard Pursall
Old 05-09-2010, 04:30 PM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

My 2M is suppose to be shipping on the 20th of May, not to much longer now. I ended going with the P-80SE from BVM. Dustin was real helpful over there. If you have time, I know you must be busy with all the events, Please dont forget about this thread Ali. Really looking forward to hear and see more about it. It would be much appreciated
Old 05-09-2010, 06:42 PM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Very interested to hear about the developments of the decal set and the trailing link gear amongst others - hopefully someone might make a lightweight light set for it to.

My P80SE is sitting in my friends loft hidden far far away from my pregnant wife who would no doubt murder me for buying such an expensive 'toy' so close to our baby's birth (6 weeks!). Still, i have a lock on my workshop so I might be able to hide it when the viper arrives and claim that I've had it for ages. Only 9 weeks to go to estimated delivery

Anyway, all the viperjet 2m threads seem to have went quiet so I guess people are off playing with their new toys, something I would be doing to if I wasn't stuck in the Bermuda Triangle (440nm SW of Bermuda).

Colin
Old 05-09-2010, 07:03 PM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Its funny you say that as I had to do the same thing with the wife. Just had our first child, a baby boy 3 weeks ago. Stuffed the P-80 in the corner of the workshop. Had to tell her about the jet as there is no hiding that when the DHL truck drops it off. I actually used some of the methods found in this thread:


http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_9716879/tm.htm

Very funny thread.
Old 05-10-2010, 05:57 AM
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Duncan
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

LOL i did the same thing, my daughter arrived a couple of weeks before my big viper arrived, fortunately my better half didn't mind and isabelle quite liked it to


As for the Decal sets, Ali now has them in stock
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Old 05-10-2010, 06:37 AM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

What a great pic!!!! Thanks for the info, I'm gonna scour Ali's site and see if I can find them......
Old 05-10-2010, 07:11 AM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

You'll have to email him for them i think. He received them at the end of last week and we have been at a show since then. He should be back in the office tomorrow.

Duncan
Old 05-10-2010, 10:11 AM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

ya no luck on the site. I will have to email him.

Erik
Old 05-10-2010, 10:17 AM
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Ali
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

I am just waiting for a few more stickers to turn up to complete the sets ( Hint hint Dunc) before I can photo them and get them on our site.
Regards Al
Old 05-14-2010, 11:44 AM
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

I've just received my 2M Viper and it's nice to see that Skymaster are obviously listening and have addressed some of these problems. Some of the minor points mentioned by Ali still remain but at least there is good progress and it is the more difficult problems that they have fixed first.

The tailplane rear spar on mine has arrived drilled and tapped for an extra bolt as per Ali's recommendations.
The gear door cylinders are installed vertically and about an inch from the hinge line on the inner doors.
Mine has 2 fuel tanks supplied so should be good for the thirstier engines.

The finish isn't as bad as I thought it would be. There are surface imperfections and scratches but they aren't too bad for a sports model. Mine is also painted in the mould and it's fairly shiny. I don't think it will take much work to get it looking good and from a couple of feet away I don't think you'd notice anything.

The flap/aileron join appears to have been worked at the factory but will still need a bit of sanding for clearance. The canopy still needs an extra pin adding. These are both incredibly easy jobs.

I will find another thread to add details of the build but thought I'd post here to update on the factory improvements.
Old 05-14-2010, 12:04 PM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

That sounds great, now I'm even more exicted for mine to arrive ( hopefully in a couple weeks ). Post pics when you can, would love to see them, and looking forward to another build thread..Thanks
Old 05-14-2010, 01:34 PM
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Ali
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Thats good to hear! You will be amazed at how a tcut and polish bring this model to life.... Oh and the custom sticker set which I am glad to say we now have in stock
Regards Al
Old 05-14-2010, 01:53 PM
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KFX450
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Default RE: Viper Jet 2M Pointers/ tips.

Put me down for one of those

Is it on the site yet to order????

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