Totaly agree

Some jets dont like rudder input duing flight. Try knife edging a F-18 or Eurofighter. New poll (Jets that dont like rudder input during flight) .

Actually i've flown a few (horribly built) RC airplanes that required Opposite rudder to keep it co-orridnated in a turn. So i wouldn't just say he's flat out "wrong" just maybe one of his planes has some weird quirks to them.

Depends on the plane. Jets were not specified, nor were model planes, but I guess that's what was intended from the forum title. Some posters seem to have gone on to full size discussion.

Full size prop aircraft use rudder all the time to coordinate turns.

On full size jet transports (I flew 747, 757, 767, L1011, HS Trident) the rudder is used during take off, remove drift on landing, and in the event of engine failure. Unless an engine fails they are just foot rests.
Jet fighters may be different, I'll let the military pilots speak for themselves.

Flying models, I use rudder on take off, knife edge, spin, stall turn type manoeuvres and that's about all. I don't think balancing tuns is relevant on jets (or fast aerobatic prop planes).

Don't know how the model reacts because I built my Eurofighter without a rudder, but in the full size at high angles of attack the flight control system uses the rudder as the aileron control but not in the direction you might at first expect - pilot applies right stick so the FCS minimises the aileron travel and applies left rudder. Think about it - with a rudder all above the centreline, left rudder is the same as right aileron. fly-by-wire fighters tend to have short moment arms for the tail fin/rudder, which reduces the rudder's yawing effect compared to a longer moment arm on a conventionally stable aircraft.
H

Try turning a full size glider without using the rudder, high aspect ratio wings, ailerons out at the tips means massive adverse Yaw that has to be counteracted so its not just prop aircraft that use the rudder all the time, and some of them are so clean you have to side slip them in just to loose height thats when you get opposite control inputs, landing in a cross wind is rudder the nose into wind, opposite aileron to keep the wings level take off the rudder just before touch down.

Mike

To the guys using rudder and the guys not using rudder... so long as you're having fun and enjoying the hobby at your own level is all that matters.

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that's because the flight control computer is flying the rudder for you, only because a few pilots felt the need to hard bang the peddles on a few scary emergency instances and snapped the tail off killing all onboard (airbus in particular had several), now the FCC controls it and as airspeed increases the full peddle deflection of rudder (what you as the pilot, still have control of at the peddles) is drastically reduced to prevent more people from dieing because of snapped off tails.


as Mike touched on, wing design has allot to do with how plane XXX responds to rudder inputs, i've got one jet in particular that hard rudder gives a roll in the opposite direction of the rudder input.

Guys,buy yourself a ziroli DC-3,that puppy will teach you what rudders are made for.
Iv had the honour of doing a few hours on a full size L39 and the only time rudder is used is on take off,landing and taxi,that said however small inputs of rudder definetly make a smoother flight.
If rudders were only meant for taxi we would only have a steerable nose wheel.i was lucky when i started flying,all my training aircraft had so much adverse aileron yaw that rudder needed to be used,if not i would be fetching aircraft in the mielies every flight.

many years of flying Heli's has conditioned me to always use my rudder.


Alan

Talking about Ziroli´s DC-3 a friend of mine wich is a very active jet modeler many years ago built one of this and most of our club followed to see the maiden flight of this aircraft in a small city near ours wich has a suitable and calm airport.. Engines checked and synchronized, (two kioritz engines),Kraft radio tested and range checked for hours and hours in the ground, a lot of people watching, everything went well until one engine quit and the inevitable stall and spin happened over a barn near the airport..

Right at this point a pretty sizeable crowd of locals gathered to see the wreck, but when my friends arrived at the barn, there was a note at the door telling that the owner has passed away that same day and there was nobody there. After some time thinking on what to do to recover the model and asking to some locals if someone knew where to contact somebody related to the barn owner , a large crowd arrived at the airport among the firefighters and a ambulance with the sirens on.. the news on the city spread quickly that a giant airplane DC3 crashed at the airport and there was at least one dead !



this has nothing to do with this thread poll at all, but it was fun for me to remember anyways...

step on the ball is an old trick to always know which rudder input you need without thinking.

The rudder is the first and last surface to work on an airplane. On my vertical to split-s I've gotten it so slow the ailerons don't do anything.. Roll it with rudder and your on your way. Rudder will save your butt big time if you have the quick mental to use it.


Danno

Which is why I asked the question earlier as I know many model fliers completely misunderstand the rudder and crosswinds, and do the wrong thing. And what you have said there is completely the wrong thing, you do not rudder into wind. In fact what you have described with wings level is not even a sideslip. Holding on rudder while keeping the wings level will give you a control-line turn, not a straight flight. A sideslip approach is to bank with ailerons into wind, then use rudder away from the wind to stop the plane turning. So a sideslip approach uses rudder away from, not into, the wind.
Harry

PS. I never recommend a sideslip approach. You don't sideslip any other part of the flight when it is "crosswind" so why do it on the approach? Just fly the approach the same way you would fly a pass along the runway in a cross wind - turn the plane in the normal manner ever so slightly into wind. That way all the control are at neutral, you are not having to hold on crossed rudder and aileron, it is much easier to judge, much easier to cope with gusts, and you are not putting the plane into pro-spin controls of slow speed and applied rudder. All you need to do is apply a dab of rudder away from the wind at the point of touching down in order to yaw the plane back onto the runway heading.

that's one of the funnest approaches you can do to loose tremendous altitude quickly without gaining airspeed.

But that's a different thing to a crosswind approach. Using sideslip to burn off height is nothing to do with a crosswind. It can be done in flat calm and you can choose to slip left or right. A normal approach dealing with a crosswind is a different matter.

Whats mielies?[] Is that something like a vuvuzela?

Mielies = maize. In this context, think of it as landing in a corn field.

AAAAhhh got you thanks. So its like fetching an aircraft that has veered off the runway or not even made the runway, due to the non application of rudder throughout the approach phase, and now you have to watch out to not get bitten or attacked by snakes and pigs that frequent the maize (mielie) fields? Man I'd rather just use rudder.

When I used to fly the Libele (standard 15m glider) the airbrakes where only on the top suface and to all intents where useless so a side slip approuch was the only way to get it down on the strip, but you are right its rudder to counteract the bank with applied ailerons into wind, long time since I flew full size it becomes instinctive once you have flow that way for a long time, sorry if I mislead anyone.

Using full rudder in the opposite direction to the spin is to accelerate the stalled wing and unstall it, never found it neccesary to apply the down elevator that is recommended to stop the spin after applying rudder as everything I flew came out of the spin immediatly you applied the rudder.

Agree with KC its one of the most fun things to do.

Mike

Think about it to landing in a cross wind condition you have to take off in a cross wind condition. So why put your self in that condition. Always another day. What next how to land in rain or snow condition.

P.s It''''''''s a hobby - keep it simple

Uhmm ... (1) to make you a better pilot, and (2) so that if the wind changes during your flight (not uncommon for many fields) you don't panic and fall apart ?

Thats interesting Harry, so it sounds like the Typhoon FCS is programmed to give rudder movement (dependant on AOA) without pedal movement?

Rob.

I am basing this on a RC Jet Pilot that know how to use a rudder who desided to take off in bad condition. I fly a 33% extra and used every control surface to hover or to do a knife edge, rolling circle, But when im flying a jet I never feel any great need to use the rudder during flight. (Just my opinion).

Just set it to Auto-Land and forget it !!!!![sm=tongue_smile.gif] Keep it simple !!!!!!


Danno[sm=spinnyeyes.gif]

you know there are 2 different ways to land in a crosswind, both do require rudder but one method uses much less than the other. i myself dip a wing into the wind and level out right before touchdown, works for me so i say to each his own. is this a thread to find out how many use rudder and when or to bash people that dont? just my 2c