why are opening the wings for a fix ???

i did a simple fix on my dragon and large Viper, works perfect .....

just glue a hard wood in the tube, drill a hole from the wing bottom
and use a screw ....

did the same on my viper elevators

A little crude but simple fix, I'm not taking any chances after investing a mountain of $$$ i'd hate to see it flaming in the middle of a paddock or buried in someones windscreen

This is not good news, I always thought Skymaster was the best from China. Since BVM sells Skymaster then it has to be very good quality but now I wonder? Structural failure from this brand, which is widely sold, huge liability to our hobby. This is a very serious matter and if some of these kits were purchased from U.S. importers, then I think culpability in some form is in their backyard. If I was an importer, I would stop selling and await an engineering design change to solve those problems.

A lot of people will be watching this to see how they take care of this.

Andy Andrews

Eagle Driver,

Some of us have the new wing tube that is webbed on the inside so putting a hardwood dowel into it is impossible. Besides, I would want a fix from the Skymaster factory.

I got an email from John this morning telling me that my Dragon is the new production (October 2009) and that I have nothing to worry about. But I'm still going to figure out a way to reinforce the tab.

Jim

Jim,
Alberts Dragon was bought this year 2010. Do you think he had the newer version or an older version?

Doane

Doane,

I think Albert has the new vesion. He has the new wing tube with the webbing inside. Also, I believe that his paint scheme is the newer version.

Jim

I was refering back to what John told you about your Dragon being the newer version. Did Albert have anything to worry about? Alberts is the same version as yours. Take what John told you with a grain of salt.

It's scarey that you were told it is o.k.

Doane,

I knew what you were referring to. I was just pointing out that fact. That SM is not treating this as a serious problem. If they were a US company they would be in court already.

Jim

ledd4u

I do not really want to get involve with internet arguments as they are pointless in my opinion. But since this whole threat is just one sided and seems a bashing of Skymaster name i should maybe set the record straight regarding the facts.

1. The Dragon and all jets talked about in this threat is not Skymaster, but Xtremejets. There is a huge difference in price between Skymaster and Xtreme.

So i put the question to the honoroble gentlemen: If the Dragon was 5000 usd, would you have bough it? Definatley not. You would have bough another cheap arf from china.

2. I would like to know how many of you have owned a Skymaster jet ( not airpac, hawai skymaster jet) to compare the difference between Xtreme and Skymaster? If you do not have, then you can not come on this threat as an expert to bad mouth the whole Skymaster range of jets.

3. The f100 was not designed by Skymaster. It was a Mibo F100 changed into arf by Skymaster R&D. This was well documented.

4. I told you before that nobody in the world have more hours on the Dragon then me. Why? Common sence. Like our German customer has pointed out. If you are buying a Jet model we (Skymaster) and I assume you are experience enough to know when or what parts are critical and MAYBE need attention. This is why you pay 1/2 the price of what you should have.

A Jet is not a 40 size arf trainer you can stick everything into and go fly. You need to be a level above. Or are you simply going blind into a build and hope for the best?

5. I have build and own 5 Dragons from various years. None of them have structurely failed. It was flown like a scale jet and i never had 3d aerobatics on airframe - so i can not help in that regard.

Lets put this into perspective:

Luis lost a Dragon to "structural" failure. The evidents will not even pass the prosecuters office. But you are all experts, i forgot. When he did not get the results from Skymaster he went puplic for support to discredit Skymaster.

Albert loss a wing in the air and his buddy claimed he know what happen. Just to later state that he was havung lunch and did not see it happen.... But since Skymaster have always listen to customers and fixed where they screwed up - i am sure Anton will come to meet you more than 1/2 way. When Alberts e-mails was not replied to, or he was waiting to long for answer, he went public to state his lost. Even though Anton did not receive his e-mails as John pointed out.

Then a Norwegian guy state that Dragons (multiple) have crashed due to "strange circumstances" I rest my case.

You know what - the stuff you people are smoking is too strong. If you have a problem sort it out with the factory. There are various ways to get hold of these people. And i am everyday on RCU. But it is much easier to get attention you desire on puplic forums and will not help your cause in solving your lost.

So go ahead and bash Skymaster for all you want now - at least the other side of the story is here to read for those of us that actually own Skymaster jets and are very happy with them. By far the best ARF in the east not by a little - but enormously...

Anton and Skymaster do care for every customer. But the laguage thing is a big problem. So give them some credit for servicing the Jet world for over 10 years and brought Jets to the normal pilots - that would never have been able to afford it.

May the force be with you...

Morne

These two statements from a Skymaster agent are basically saying that a jet marketed by Skymaster should expect to have to do some work to it to get it airworthy. You also seem to be saying that you get what you pay for and that becuase it doesn't cost £5k you deserve to get a piece of crap?

Please tell me if I am wrong.

Sheridan

Sheridan, you got it right. That's exactly what Morne is saying.

If you order a yellow jet from X-Treme and it comes in blue is the fact that it was cheaper an excuse that you didn't get what you paid for?
If X-Treme Jets was stateside, a court would say that that SM and XTJ were one in the same. Same owner, same business and probably the same factory.

I got an email from John at SM/XTJ today stating that Albert's model was old production and mine is new production therefore I do not have the issue of the tab failing but I should pull hard on it to see. Well, bull*****! This is an airplane that could kill someone. Albert's jet was made the same time mine was. I am going to do the responsible thing and beef up the tab attachment in the wing.

Morne, are you saying that because the XTJ line is a cheaper line then a certain amount of injury and even death is acceptable? And yes, I was eating lunch, so what??? Albert is a very respected flyer over here and he can take his lumps better than anybody. His jet failed due to poor workmanship AND poor design. So the way that I understand your comments is that it is acceptable to kill someone because you paid less. If you were a manufacturer over here and made that comment after someone got injured you would go to jail.

And again, it wouldn't have cost any more to make the wing tab more secure. In fact, it would have saved money.

To put in into perspective as you say, this is a real issue that does not affect every Dragon but every Dragon needs to be inspected and modified. Just like PST did when Reaction ARF wings started to de-laminate.

Jim

Morne,

Wait a minute, you say this:

Luis lost a Dragon to "structural" failure. The evidents will not even pass the prosecuters office. But you are all experts, i forgot. When he did not get the results from Skymaster he went puplic for support to discredit Skymaster.

1. I went public and looking for support because Jeff Tolomeo did not answer me, this was before I have an answer from him.
2. When Jeff Tolomeo write to me that with this evidence Skymaster can not replace the plane, I post just what they said to me:

I receive an email from Jeff Tolomeo and he said that skymaster wont replace the plane doit there are no evidence of structural failure, if the video is not enough evidence of the failure, I really do not know what it is.

I am quite sure it was not my fault, I did not do anything wrong.

I want to thanks all of you for your opinions, I wish this will not happen to any one else.

Fore sure I will not buy other plane from this guys.

3. I do not see where I am discredit Skymaster?

I only said that I will not buy other plane from this guys.

Luis Perez

So what you are saying Morne is that if you buy an Extreme jet and not a Skymaster jet you will not get the same customer service or the same attention to inquiries or product reliability.
We as jet pilots, according to Morne, are at a level that should know what would make an airframe safe to fly. So I quess we need to tear apart the product and inspect the internals to see if it is safe to fly... because don't forget this is only an Extreme jets product not a Skymaster one..
Alberts email went unanswered for SIX days. Even when anothers emails were responded to during this time. He tried to bring a serious situation to the attention of Anton well before bring it here to RCU... There was a thread already started before he brought it here. I quess Anton checks at RCU first before checking his emails. How quick Anton responded when it did reach RCU.
Hmmmm.. don't recall anybody saying anything about 3d here... that's like saying I didn't put a 200 class turbine in my jet "so I can not help in that regard".
O.K. once the economy (Extreme jets) version of Skymaster jet is in the hands of the "normal pilot" what is he to do with it once he can "afford" it? Look at it???
Morne you keep distinquishing between Extreme jets and Skymaster Jets. Are they not owned by the same person/corp/company etc...? If there is a difference in the two with respect to quality then tell the prospective buyers/public. If you want a safe product where you don't have to redesign it buy Skymaster. If you want a sub level product and want a challenge to make it a Skymaster level product then buy an Extreme jets product.
You are totally off base Morne when you said by bringing it to the public forums it will not help your cause. Unless Skymaster has a strong customer base that has no computer access or frequents RCU, Skymaster's integrety is at stake and it is now brought to the attention of the masses.
So lets all now take a moment of silence and according to Morne give credit to Anton and be thankful that the jet that is falling out of the sky is not a Skymaster jet but an Extreme jets.

I'm confused! The statement seems to say it's ok for the Dragon to fail because it's the cheaper Xtreme jets kit?!?! - but haven't guys come out and said the Ali tab has also failed on Vipers and an F86? So it seems the construction here is the same for this system regardless of whether it falls under Skymaster or Xtreme jets. The materials used may be different at various stages of construction but what is under scrutiny here is the securing method that appears to have already been bought into question 4 years ago.

MNModels

First, I did not bash anyone. Secondly, the BVM site shows the link to Skymaster/X-treme jets. Therefore, I can conclude that from that perspective a reasonable association with quality and an expected excellence. A simular comparison could be made from Toyota / Scion, same company a little less quality but same safety.

Anton,
You can personally thank MORNE for loosing myself and 6 other of my jet flying buddies as customers. His statement is SHOCKING in that he thinks its "ok" to potentially loose an airframe with an obvious design flaw due to it being in the "cheaper" extreme jets lineup. Woww.. just Woww...

Hi,

That is what i mean by internet misinterpitation. (sorry spelling).

No not correct. I respect every modeller and pilot. I was pointing out that there is a difference between the 2 brands. I never said that Xtreme was unsafe and dangerous. What i mean was - that regadless of what jet you buy - your own personal building experience must always come forward when building a kit. And if you find that some part are not up to standard - cantact the people involved. This is always the better option.

I can honestly say that i have never heard of the "tab " problem. And i am sure neither did ANTON. It just sounded that some are saying Anton sold kits that he know was faulty - which is not the case.

I am not here to fight and trying to work with the issues to get it resolve.

I respect everybody for their opinion as i have my opinion.

Morne,

You are absolutly correct, building experience is important and up to the builder on any jet or any model. But the things that we rely on being done right that we cannot see without cutting open the wing or other structure MUST be done right at the factory. If I, as a builder, do not properly glue the hinges or control horns and they fail, that is on me. If a factory glued hinge or horn or tab fails, that's on them. And if my airplane goes and hurts someone because something failed that was done be the factory and I could not reasonably have known, it is the factories fault. Now that the factory is on notice about this issue, they need to notify everyone involved, even if only be posting on RCU, what should be done. And "pulling on the tabs with effort" is not a fix. The wings need to be cut open at the root and the tab attachment beefed up. Plain and simple.

On another note, I mentioned earlier that my Dragon canopy came off in flight a week ago Saturday. The replacement was not in stock at Skymaster. They had to fabricate one, which they did. It arrived at my house this morning. One week. Excellent job Anton and John!

Jim

Hi John,

I just went to my sent folder and copied and pasted the e-mail from 8/10/2010, please let me know when you get it although is nothing different than what you already know.

Albert

Anton has heard about several tab failures. I know kits they have replaced because of it. The Viper RCU thread referenced earlier in this thread identified the alum. tab as an issue and Anton acknowledged it and said then "he would have his staff look in to it". That was April 2009. Same response he gave on this thread. Please rest assured Anton has know for a long time and anyone that has built a Viper or several other kits that SM makes using this wing connection are aware of it and have built around it.

This is more than just a bad gear hinge, weak gear door or canopy. This is a safety issue. Yes, all of us can do a 'work around' but we shouldn't have to...not on a wing connection design. And if nothing else, Anton keeps making the same excuse..."have my staff look into it". And John says "lost the email, send again". As someone once said, "your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear what you are saying."

Let's not beat-up on ourselves. SM has a problem and I think anyone representing SM would better serve SM and us by trying to get SM to correct these kinds of problems.

George

Morne,

I waited long enough, I could have went public the day of the crash but instead I waited, looked at the plane when I got home to absolutely make sure that it was the plane that failed. Then and only then did I even try to e-mail Anton and I waited plenty long. I knew that with a topic like "dragon wing failure" I would get a response and guess what it worked ! How I'm I suppose to know he didn't get my e-mail ? How long should I have waited for a response ? Was it wrong to go public ? Doesn't every dragon owner have the right to know so it doesn't happen to them ? Think about all of these questions then answer them with a more intelligent post than your previous because it doesn't make you sound too smart !

Albert

Morne, you are not doing Skymaster any favors. You are actually insulting current costumers. You should shut up!
I understand language barriers, but some fo the stuff you posted is flat out wrong.

MNMODELS....Soooooo. If the f-100 isn't SM design then its ok that it a piece of ***** along with the rest of their fleet.
Cool sounds good to me.
Sooooo It's ok that it explodes in the air and kills someone or lands in the pits taking out some GOOD jets. Sound cool. I'll bring mine to top gun. NOT!!!!! i HAVE WAY TOO MUCH RESPECT FOR THE good kits AND THEIR BUILDERS.

Yellow Aircraft. I 100% agree with you as I have built almost all of Yellows kits and they are of the highest qaulity.
The rerst however are *****.

SKYMASTER CAN KISS MY ***** WITH NO DUE RESPECT.

I don't manage to understand why u people seem to miss what has been obvious from day one ......SM where and still are doing the same .....and that is growing ,developing and stepping over your bodies using u guys and your money to sort out their mistakes using everyone as their R/D .....honestly when you see that picture with the tab ...it's not only that the person who built that wing mispositioned the glue .....it is absolutely clear that nobody did any analysis of what so ever on that critical point ...I had the opportunity to witness that many of their products over the years and the lack of serious engineering is evident everywhere in their structure design....quality control and so on....true it is getting better year after year but at least when safety of flight is in question there should be no second chance !