RE: Reno crash
 

There is another pic from a top down angle on Yahoo that shows him slumped very very far forward. It was a horrible impact, From what I have heard from friends there there is nothing left of the aircraft bigger than a foot or two in size. A question Why is the tailwheel out? S

RE: Reno crash
 

Yea sorry Scotty, didn't mean to sound like a know-it-all jerk or anything. Just wanted to make sure everyone had the correct info.

Very, very sad day indeed.

I do have a question regarding the trim tab failure. Would a small tab like that really cause the plane to become uncontrollable? It is very small and one wouldn't think that that would render the plane uncontrollable. I could see if the tab were stuck in either the full up or down position but even then this could be counter-acted with elevator in the opposite direction, right?


S

RE: Reno crash
 

I don't think a broken trim tab would have caused that. Based on what Boli posted, I think there was something catastrophic going in in the cockpit.

RE: Reno crash
 

I don't know much about the P51 but it might not just be a 'trim' tab. If it is a geared tab then its purpose is to take the aerodynamic load off the pilot. Without this (and hydraulic assistance) then I guess it is quite possible the controls would become so heavy as to be unflyable, especially at the speeds it would have been going at during the race.

Although it obviously did end up in the spectator area, it looks from the video that it didn't actually go into the spectator stands (although it is hard to tell). It's a pretty horrific thing to happen but it seems to me that it may have had the potential to be even worse than it was.

RE: Reno crash
 

Depends on what was left of the trim tab, and how much deflection it had. A big trim tab deflection can cause huge stick forces which only have to be greater than the strength of the pilot for the aircraft to be uncontrollable.

RE: Reno crash
 

You can see part of the left tab has broken free, but the other tab is still attached...and deflected down, which creates "up elevator" control pressures. You can also see that the picture gives the impression that the elevators have "split" because they appear to not be deflecting evenly.

Couple that with a violent tail flutter that was seen by many witnesses...there is a good chance the elevators separated from the stick.

There are no hydraulic primary flight controls on the P-51...it's all mechanical.

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

Here is a sight that has some videos you probably won't see on Youtube. Warning some are graphic:

http://www.rgj.com/videonetwork/1164156712001?odyssey=mod|mostpopvideos

Here is another I found on a CNN web affiliate:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/09/17/nevada.plane.crash/ This one is unbelievable..close.

Here is an interesting interview where people are saying he pulled up and spiraled before nose down:
http://www.digtriad.com/video/default.aspx?bctid=1164156757001&odyssey=mod|newsw ell|text|FRONTPAGE|featured

Another good report from FOX from a pilot who witnessed:
http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/us-42...-25435421.html

RE: Reno crash
 

This was truly a horrific event. I just went to Jimmy's Facebook page and simply said "Rest in peace Jimmy".

Such a sad day.

S

RE: Reno crash
 

There will be some guessing for a while now until there is an official statement of what has happened.
The loose trim tab can cause lots of trouble in a slower airplane, with a plane like this flying over 400 Mph close to the ground, there is not much even the best pilot can do.
Prayers to the people and their families. This is the worst day in the life of hundreds of people. And a very bad day for the general avation, which already struggles.
Growing up in Germany, I never had the chance to see a real airshow - after the Rammstein accident we had so many regulations, no shows happened anymore.
Now let us hope that there are ways to make these events safer without taking them away.

RE: Reno crash
 

Hello all, I was there sitting in a front row box number 15A. I believe the Ghost came down into box 24-25. This race had 4 aircraft capable of over 500 mph, we were really jazzed for this heat, most of us pulling for the Ghost to beat Strega. Strega and Voodoo passed the start finish line and I was watching Voodoo when someone said "whats this" and I looked up in time to see the ship inverted at the top and screaming down, full throttle right at us. I was saying to myself miss us miss us miss us when she started a very slow roll, thats when I hit the ground and a second later felt the impact. Stuck my head up to see which way to run to avoid the fire and saw there was none, debris was still falling from the sky. My friend who owns the box Is a Fire Cheif with EMT training ran down along with 2 other EMT's in our box. He came back a few minutes later, and I cannot say here what he saw. We have 3 major hospitals in this area so a lot of the spectators were medical personnel who jumped into action right away. There was a Vietnam era HUEY chopper in the static display area that was pulled out, fueled and put into action as a MediVac with volunteers riding along to show the crew where the hospitals were. Being a scale modeler I had wanted to modify a TopFlite P-51 into the Ghost and was at the pit when it was pulled out for this race, I was taking the usual modeler pics as it went buy, markings etc. I know I have a close up of the tail section, if anything was amiss it might show. I have not downloaded the pics yet. Very scary and unbelievable occurance, you cannot believe it happened. Your chest pounds and hurts, your knees tremble, and you are stunned. I was diagnosed with a little shock by my neighbor who is a retired USAF flight surgeon, but am OK today. I hope this does not put an end to these races, it is a spectacular thunderous racing sport that brings you to your feet as these vintage modified birds scream by at 100 feet. Accidents happen in all racing events, you know and accept that when you purchase your ticket. Prayers for the dead and injured.

RE: Reno crash
 

:( my thoughts go to those that died

RE: Reno crash
 

I can verify that. I have had 2 separate situations where a trim tab malfunction (both in smaller & slower aircraft) which could have been catastrophic.

As to the pilot not being visible...it is very possible that after doing all he could to pull up elevator, he was simply burying his head, I have been in 2 airplane crashes and in one of them, after aiming between the trees, that's exactly what I did.

RE: Reno crash
 

A broken trim tab can absoutely do that. I had one break on a T-43 maintenance check once. We were at 210kts straight and level and it jerked the yoke out of the pilots hands. Yoke was full back to forward several tlimes before we got it under control. Just imagine what it would do at 350kts and 6 Gs

RE: Reno crash
 

I don't think there's much doubt the tab caused the crash.

It would be silly, IMO, to conclude otherwise given that the tab is known to have failed and the a/c was seen to pitch hard then crash.

Surely those events are related and not coincidental.

RE: Reno crash
 

I found this on another forum. Bob Button team manager for Voodoo discussing the separation of the elevator trim tab in 1998.

"Last year was very emotional," Button says, surveying the unlimited pits on Sunday morning, "For two reasons... One, obviously, we got ourselves into a real potential problem. In the previous two years, we had been building up the airplane, so there was no preparation time available to us. I also made some mental mistakes and allowed things to happen that shouldn't have happened." Indeed, pilot Bob Hannah had a wild ride when the elevator trim tab broke off the aircraft and pitched the racer up at approximately 10 G's. Hannah took a G-induced nap but recovered consciousness high over the race course. The flaps had been mis-rigged, and led to undesirable pitch trim forces. At the speeds they were flying at Reno, the tab was sticking way out in the breeze and it had fluttered off. "The second thing was; I had two years of coming up here and not taking home any money. We lost the ADI pump when Sherman Smoot was flying it in '97, and the trim tab in '98. It was some poor decision making I made. Those kinds of things are not going to happen any more," Button says. He is serious. "We're going to have a well prepared, tested airplane up here."

RE: Reno crash
 

the latest news is,,9 dead,,,,a piece of the tail control was recoverd ,,,it seemed to have come of well before the actual crash. earlier reports were that many people saw sumthing come of just before control was lost.

RE: Reno crash
 

As was once stated to me by an FAA Inspector, you will never really know for sure what happened, unless you are sitting there in the cockpit yourself when the malfunction occurs.

Really sad day for sure, prayers for all involved are in order.

RE: Reno crash
 

Still cant understand why there was no fire. Thank God there wasn't or there would have likely been many more casualties and fatalities. Av fuel for those machines is very volatile and there had to be sparks or flames from the engine during the crash to ignite it. I have never seen a catastrophic aviation accident without fire unless the aircraft was out of fuel.

RE: Reno crash
 

I have.

One of the only certainties was that the crash was not caused be fuel starvation.

RE: Reno crash
 

Roselawn Indiana...ATR-72 iced up and spun in from a holding pattern, crashing in a near vertical dive at almost 400 knots. It hit so hard the airframe was vaporized along with the fuel in the wing tanks.

There was no fire, even though both turbo prop engines were operating at the time of impact.

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

Any word or discussion if there was any Data Downlink too the Pit Crew similar to Nascar???? I would think all those aircraft would have real time data coming into the crew for inflight adjustments and such.... Perhaps airspeed, temps, g's, fuel pressure, manifold pressure, RPM and such... Time will tell the story.. I agree that the NTSB conclusions will come from video and still photo's and eye witnesses and pehaps sound analysis. I don't see how anything can be figured out from the crashed pieces's... nothing left.


Danno

RE: Reno crash
 

You would be surprised what the trained investigators can learn from even the smallest of the "crashed pieces".
They teach that kind if thing in the military and civilian accident investigation courses. Modern forensic techniques can make things even better.

RE: Reno crash
 

I saw a TV special on aircraft crash investigation and it's amazing what can be learned from all the little pieces. For instance, the light bulbs from warning lights are recovered and tested. If the bulb still works, that light was off at the moment of impact. When a light is on, the heat weakens the filament and it breaks on impact. Of course, I'm sure there is a limit.

Prayers for those who were killed or injured,

Jim

RE: Reno crash
 

It seems that a piece of the plane has been found on the course near the area where the initial pitch up was made.

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

I really hope FAA don't clamp down on events like this…earlier in the forum OliverJacob made a good point in saying "I never had the chance to see a real airshow - after the Rammstein accident we had so many regulations, no shows happened anymore" So having a 74 year old at the stick of a 500mph Aircraft pulling up to 6 Gs at the public event a good idea?…..one things for sure its been a rough few months for the states….in more ways than one.

Ants