RE: Reno crash
 

Yes, I'm sure the media/lawyers/regulators will be all over that one.

More than a few years back, myself, a buddy, and his father attended a small airshow which was featuring WWII heavy metal. Having grown up in the jet age, I was excited at the prospect of seeing/hearing Mustangs and Corsairs doing low passes. The Mustang pilots were in their 60's and this seemed to greatly upset my buddy's father who flew Spitfires and Tempest V's in WWII. I asked him why he was upset and he told me that these planes are a handful. As a 21 year old combat pilot in the peak of physical condition he found that, upon returning to duty after taking a 3-day pass to London, he'd have lost his "edge" and was borderline unsafe in one of these planes. Unfortunately, his concerns proved to be an omen as a Mustang crashed during the show.

I'm not suggesting that age had anything to do with this crash in Reno. The race pilot was an accomplished aviator and, I'm sure, an excellent pilot. Time, however, gets hold of us all. [:o]

Jim

RE: Reno crash
 

I knew the Mustang could dive out of 20,000 ft and reach 500mph +, butcan they really sustain it at sea level?

Was wondering, can loosing that trim tab really cause complete loss of control? Can't it be corrected with aileron and elevator input?

RE: Reno crash
 

Stead elevation is about 5,000 MSL.

And it wasn't a stock Mustang by any means.

And...what some don't understand is that a mis-adjusted trim tab can make a proper control input impossible without super human strength. One can correct an improperly set trim tab but what is one going to do with a broken one?

RE: Reno crash
 

I see a T28 has also crashed at the West Virginia Airshow.

Rob.

RE: Reno crash
 

One thing is that they fly with a very aft C of G during these races - in order to make tighter turns. Sometimes to the point of actually have to add down elevator n the turns.

If you are trimmed for nose down and you lose the trim tab....guess what? You pitch up really badly.

RE: Reno crash
 

Yes the trim tab appears to be broken before impact, inducing a major tailplane problem, C/G etc but…..the throttle wide open, and rolling on its back?… I think regardless, all pilots would try and level the aircraft and cut the power…if they were concuss.
Thoughts are with the families.

RE: Reno crash
 

I highly doubt Jimmy was conscious after the initial hard pitch up. When the trim tab failed on Voodoo back in 97 I think, estimates on the initial pitch up were somewhere between 12 and 14 G. As anyone who's ever flown the T-37 can tell you, it only takes 3G to put a pilot to sleep if the G-onset rate is high enough. This was over 4 times that much G with an almost instant onset rate.

RE: Reno crash
 

The wimps of the world are already chanting death to air races and air shows. Lets just all go get in our underground bunkers and wait till 2012. This was a terrible accident but you are much more likely to die driving to the airshow than at it.

RE: Reno crash
 

Read this. It gives a real insight into the airplane and pilot.
http://www.sportaviationonline.org/s...on/201105#pg37

RE: Reno crash
 

So is that particular trim tab for pitch or roll? Both?

I mean, at 400 kts it shouldnt take a lot of input for the aileron/elevator to kick in. He must have been g-locked.

RE: Reno crash
 

Thanks Bob, this really explains what that little tab does and the forces involved. Not being a full scale pilot, I understand now.

RE: Reno crash
 

Talked directly to Tom. Good guy.

RE: Reno crash
 

Actually I didn't see his comment as political. It wasn't political. It was just a comment. There have been cries to end the races for some time. But we don't have to add an acid bath to this anymore than the event has been to many of us. I was there, saw it with my own eyes, unfortunately breathed in the vaporized remains, and had buddies in the middle of the mayhem too. So far most of us have been accounted for I'm just bracing for the unexpected ones I haven't considered. I've already realized one of the fatalities beside the pilot was someone I saw an hour earlier - I didn't know him personally but I know who he was because he was a young man in a wheel chair and I recognized him in the ensuing coverage of the people who are now being identified.

Please take your arguing and play it elsewhere if anyone wants to scrap. Do it elsewhere. A lot of us have almost NO PATIENCE for it right now. I'M NOT KIDDING.

RE: Reno crash
 

Shaun,
Sorry if I offended you. No politics intended. I am just tired of the mentality of a lot of people around the world who are afraid of everything and think since they are afraid I should be afraid also. If they wish to live their lives in a state of panic then so be it. I refuse to.

Tom

RE: Reno crash
 

Good article Redline. Thanks.

From reading that, Jimmy L. was quiet about the speed the Galloping Ghost can now achieve. That leads me to believe the Ghost hasn't flown in an official race (except test flights from modifications) this year until Reno's Friday afternoon race.

Because I posted this, certainly doesn't mean this is a factor in the tragedy, it's just my observation.[8D]

RE: Reno crash
 

In a minor thread hijack...this just came to me.

This crash is a perfect example of why there should be no maidens done at shows during regular hours. Sure, the chances of a P-51 going into the crowd (and crashing into the handicapped seating section to boot killing a young man in a wheelchair) is quite slim...but guess what...it finally happened.

We can all use this as a terrific lesson on safety, how it should always be adhered too and what the ramifications can be if there is truly a horrific accident.

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

Here is a picture of the Ghost being pulled out of the pit for Gold heat on friday, you can see the elevator trim tab on the bottom of the elevator, for those who do not know where it is located. Also to answer a previous question about data downloading, I am a retired A&P and was a crew member for awhile on the RareBear and at the time it was being fitted with a telemetry system, I don't remember if it was going to constantly download in real time, or if it had to be interrogated after landing. But it was there and I belive other camps used a simuliar system as well.

RE: Reno crash
 

Shawn,

When I read the 2012 comment, I thought he was talking about the world ending in 2012 (the Mayan Calendar thing).

Damn...I must be getting old!

Beave

RE: Reno crash
 

Actually I didn't take this as a reference to the election or anything political, but to the doomsday 2012 predictions... ([link=http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=5301284&page=1]http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=5301284&page=1[/link])

Ups, Beave beat me to it - I guess we're both old, but I think Beave is older... :D

Bob

RE: Reno crash
 

Shaun,

I didn't take Tom's comment of "wimps of this world" as any form of political statement either.

[link=http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypersensitive]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/hypersensitive[/link]

Regards,

Jim

RE: Reno crash
 

It wasn't a comment about elections, it WAS a comment about doomsday. It appears Shaun is the one who made it political. Pretty self centered that someone would turn a plane crash in to some reference about their leader.

RE: Reno crash
 

Sin,

Thanks for the commentary. Helpful as always. I spoke to Tom and I edited my comment.

RE: Reno crash
 

PM Sent.

RE: Reno crash
 

Beave,

You're not getting old! Well, you MAY be, but your read on 2012 seems right on.... You coming to BITW?

RE: Reno crash
 

I watched the ghost as it left controlled flight. At he time I did not know about the trim tab coming off. But what happened was in turn 8 where you have the most G load, it appeared that the ghost had a high speed stall caused bvy the loss of elevator control and snapped out of the pattern. This violent snap most likely caused a G induced loss of concesness. You can see in the photo;s, he is slumped forward in the cockpit. The plane was on its own path up and over the crowd before diving into the box seat area. I believe the only reason it pulled up a little and missed the bleachers is the up elevator caused by the trim tab missing.