Anyone crying about the cost of one of these aircraft ought to try racing RC Hydros ,specifically Twins . It's not for everyone and the build time is extensive and no where near as precise as a pattern aircraft ....but if you want to go fast out of the box ....either do it yourself or pay the price . Quality and precision cost ...in hours or dollars . No free lunch .

It's interesting, I've gotten into DLG's and the cost of airframes get brought up there routinely also. A good bagged DLG (Kevlar wings, carbon/Kevlar Fuse) is $450 an all molded carbon DLG is pushing $1,000! This is for a 1.5M 4 channel plane that will weigh maybe 10 ozs when finished!

Try pricing out a top of the line competitive heli for 3D or precision....

Arch

It's ANY sport, in ANYfield. The last 2% of performance tends to have exponential cost. Almost by definition, things that are made for the masses (and therefore low cost) can be "Tweaked" for better performance. As someone earlier stated, you either need to do the work yourself, or pay someone skilled to do it for you. If it was easy, then everyone would be doing it, so again, by definition it's NOT easy.

The problem lies in that you don't NEED that last % of performance to be competitive in all but the very highest top few % of competitors. We just think we do, or we like it. Either way, we're there.

I fly a top of the line pattern plane. But Andrew could still kick my ***** with a with $350 Osiris. And if I step down a rung I can do the same to other people.

Most of us like to have equipment that outperforms our abilities. We don't need it, we just want it. I build because I don't like paying someone to build. But that doesn't devalue the time and effort. Just less cash out of pocket.

Unfortunately the lack of builders has led to a lack of demand for kits, which has only increased the price and caused even fewer to survive. It's become a downward spiral I'm afraid.

So what about plans built models? Is there a list of plans, or anyone know a couple of designs where plans are available for a 2M off the top of there heads.
I know of the Black Magic and a friend has one, but being new to all of this and the dynamic change of the event and the change of available ARF's over the last couple of years makes it too expensive for me to buy one anyway. I can build, though.
I see buying used YS 170's and building balsa models at home as being a good way to go.
Thanks,
Chris...

Chris, DLG took a huge shot in the arm when plans for a very competitive design was made available to anyone and everyone free of charge.

It did help that the designer is an MIT professor in aeronautics and a very active aeromodeller. This gave the design a huge amount of credibility and a number of small cottage industries sprung up around this design making various bits and pieces and even whole planes. There would have been hundreds of these things built around the world.

While still a very competitive design, now the sport has become more widespread it's opened up the door for $1K fully molded DLG's with and their respective manufactures have resorted to secret airfoils, exotic construction and obscure materials to market their designs as "better than all others".

When was the last time anyone saw a real plan for a real F3A ship? In my case about 20 years ago for a Checkmate but I don't think that design had ever won anything inportant in Australia.

Touché there BJR, even in big mags like RCM, I think they last one I saw was a loaded dice.

You know it's funny you should mention that, I remember either hearing or reading that Prettner used to regularly give plans to MAN, to get everyone flying his aircarft, get used to the way they looked, and also, just maybe, increase the "halo effect" around him.

I think that still happens, who remembers judge #10?! hehehe.

The designs of F3A aircraft have nowadays become a bit of a guarded commodity and due to the rules being ***** backwards, we HAVE to pay extra for a competitive aircraft. Oh and when I say competitive, I'm not talking design just yet, this is just to make weight!

I can't help but feel that we've painted ourselves into a corner, and the way out presently is with $$$$$$....

Jeff Carder will happily give you plans for his Lightning. While not 'easy' to build, it is certainly doable if you have the skills. I'm in the middle of cutting parts out to start building mine.

Thanks for the info, Doug.
Chris...

I got into pattern some years ago knowing full well I would not be flying the latest of equipment. I'm sure some realize this and perhaps just don't pursue pattern. I'm stubborn, so I designed my own plane and flew it. I learned to fly better and design better and continued enjoying pattern on a budget. Pattern is whatever you want it to be based on the amount of time, money, and effort you have available to enjoy it to some degree. Some of my own designs are available for free, including some short-kit laser files. However, some others are not, due to the greater degree of sweat involved in designing, refining, and in some cases it is simply difficult to make detailed plans with very high parts counts (think of all the full size templates for a laser kit...

I know Jeff's Lightning for one is one heck of a great flying and great looking airplane, and so are some other plan-based F3A planes.

Everyone would like a Lexus in their driveway, but once in a while you see an old rebuilt (in their own garage) rx-7 racer that cleans everyones clock at the weekend autocross and personally, that makes me smile.

Best Regards,
Mark

-Join the NSRCA, it's good for you and pattern

Hello,

Flying Models published the Option 120 back in 2007, I do not recall what month however, but that could be an option for those who like to build.

Teo

Years ago, a friend of mine owned and operated a 'speed' shop which primarily focused on building cars and engines, but would work on anything from snowmobile engines to boat outboards. There was a sign in the shop which summed it up pretty nicely:

SPEED COSTS. HOW FAST CAN YOU AFFORD TO GO?

Hi Guys,

I'm a glider guider looking at getting into precision flying.

I appreciate all the info in this thread, thanks!

I have to say I can't agree about the volume argument for F3A cost though. Our competition gliders are made in 10's not hundreds. They are fully moulded out of alloy molds and use the most expensive carbon etc etc for absolute minimum weight. They cost about half what an F3A airframe costs and there's more airframe at 3.5-3.8m span too.

It does look like 'F3A' means 'Double the price'.

I'll start with a smaller airframe and decide on a larger one when i have enough experience to know where I'm going and what I need to get there.

Love the way these planes fly - they are so graceful

Go Great!

Ken.

.
The high prices are mainly to keep the "riff-raff" out . . .
.

Zsss, that is supposed to be a secret!!

Osiris looks like an AWESOME way to get into pattern. Under $400. I just watched their video detailing the assembly and beginning pattern flying.

Sebart Wind 110 is very competitive, slightly larger and more expensive than the Osiris. Right around $600.

Venus II was a touch under $300. It's a heavier plane (though built very strong), has a basic sport airfoil, flat, glued in stabilizers - definitely not designed specifically for F3A flying. This plane was supported by one of the biggest retailers in the business and thus was made in enormous volumes. So, little effort into design (comparatively) and mass production. For an extra $100, you get a plane designed by F3A pilots (Osiris) that basically comes put together out of the box (3hrs build time), and is extremely capable.

Osiris and Wind are designed by top level F3A pilots. A design is made, a deal made to have the plane assembled... then the plane is tested, modifications made, second batch of planes is made... and how many of these planes are sold? A few hundred? A lot of effort goes into these planes by a small group of people. They have to charge to make it worth their time.

Granted I know next to nothing about the composite stuff, but there the market is smaller, the plane is bigger, and the process more advanced. Sounds like $$$ to me.

I'm still waiting for the first pattern plane manufacturer coming up to an event driving a nice Porsche (or equivalent)....

This is just a silly discussion. As mentioned before: you want speed, you have to spend. That was a nice analogy.

Volkert


EDIT: for better wording..

Yeah, but WHY do you have to spend if you want speed.

My Yamaha TZ250 GP bike is speed but it's parts pricing is all over the place. Some parts cheaper than the road equivalent some parts dearer.

Silliest parts pricing was the chain adjusters, left hand side was about $34 the right hand side was about $134. They were idendical in all respects except the left one ($100 cheaper) had one MORE machining operation which made it unusable on the right hand side. They charge $100 more NOT to machine a certain bit of metal off it??

Same with cars, with driver side door handle prices compared to passenger side prices. The driver side door hand must be faster and have more performance eh???

No one is arguing that F3A makers are turning huge profits, but the F3A stamp certainly adds a premium to the price (no difference to designer label clothes manufactured in China or Peru I suppose).

Performance costs money is true, but it doesn't fully explain why.

This is not too far fetched, considering some of these guys have really good "day jobs". Years ago the local hobby shop I hung out at had a poster showing a hobo with the napsac on a stick. The caption said "I made mine in the hobby business". This hs owner was a retired engineer, who was not relying on it for support.

typo

The Porsche event has allready taken place. Who remembers PL-production.

Anders J

This now even got better; Lorenz now offers a stickerset for about 50€. Have a look at the pictures. Now you don't need to paint the model any more. I think it is a great deal!

Volkert

Hey Chris,
Check out the Lightning build thread too. It's very well done, informative, and you might be inspired to do it. The plane might not be as competitive as the latest design in a few years, but I'm out for the ride more than a top three trophy anyhow. I'm with you on the "building" one too. You can always try to grab a 4-sale one too, but be picky.
Hook

The answer is quite simple if you want a plane to fly in masters class or you are a pro class pilot you got to spend atleast 2000$ & up for a good plane... OR the other option is you can buy some cheat 2x2 F3A planes available in the market. What you pay is what you get. Pattern planes are precession aerobatic planes built with great care & time taken is more compared to those giant scale planes. Try building one F3A 2x2 you will automatically get the answer...

Umm....black magic...lightning.....pentathlon.

Both black magic and pentathlon kit cost under 800 bucks.



Both black magic competed successfully in masters and fai.



Chuck