Also, Randy/desertrider49, could you tell us more about the 50 size electric pattern plane you purchased to "begin my electron burning exercise". You know the one, the mama san, shake and bake, landfill special! I'm curious as to specifically which plane and the problems you encountered. Regards, Everette

One thing that I did with my local club is have a mini pattern contest as a program at one of our field meetings, We flew the sportsman sequence with the rule of fly what you are most comfortable flying, except if you were an active pattern competitor, then you had to fly a 40 sized trainer. I flew the sportsman sequence first with my integral to show what it should look like and explain the sequence. Then flew the first round with the trainer (not pretty but recognizable) we had about 6 new guys try it with their sports planes and three start showing up to close by contests. So one little program shed some of the fear from a few of the guys and added three new people.

Great idea. Glad you had some success there.
Chris...

I didn't get a landfill special, and I didn't get myself a mama san, I was numba one good G.I., ha ha, I spent a few bucks for the Wind 50e. I bought a package deal from a reputable pattern exclusive dealer that included the controller, motor, and plane, the only part of this that went smoothly, thanks Chris. To make a long story short, the problem was that the horizontal stab is removable and I thought I had it tight by adding glue to the tube and putting tape on the tube and putting a wood screw in the leading edge into the fuse. As I said, glueing it in did the trick. The area where the wings butt up against the fuse has a recess for the wings to insert into which don't line up so well, and there is a gap at the rear, so I imagine that will give me some problems down the road.

Chiris (stuntflyr), thanks for the offer, but the golf course is calling me today and I must go. I fly mostly at OCMA (www.flyocma.com) but have been thinking about joining Prado since I also fly IMAC and the Goodwines are first class people doing a terrific job for the field and IMAC.

Everette, as far as the noise I hear once in a while, it's a definate banging, sounds a little like a small caliber, semi-automatic weapon, pop, pop, pop. When I throttle down it goes away, and if I throttle up very slowly it dosen't seem to do it. As I think about it more and more, it may be doing it mostly into the wind. It makes me think it's the positive and negative wires arching against each other but that wouldn't be loud enough to hear as I'm doing a half cuban at the edge of the box. In the instructions there is a recommendation to shorten the leads from the motor which I didn't do, thinking I could use it in another plane when the time comes. I'm going to secure the three wires from the motor to the controller so they can't possibly move.

I'm curious what you're hearing as I have the same setup as you basically and have had no problems. I DID have the loose stab tube issue, but I fixed it with some modification to the tube itself. I may end up gluing in the tube once I'm done trimming the airplane.

I wonder if the noise you're hearing is the result of a motor timing issue with the controller?

Randy,
Golf, aviations biggest enemy. I believe Mile Square is a golf course!
Enjoy, hope to meet you sometime this year.
Chris...

I actually glued the stab to the fuse, servo and all. Like I said, one more problem and it's wood chipper time, the guys are ready to rent one for me, ha ha my friends...


If it's the timing, I'm assuming there is nothing I can do to change that. I have one guy that flies at my field who knows a lot more about this than me and maybe I can take my laptop and have him look at my settings. My brake is set at 30%, and I don't know what any of the other settings mean so I didn't change any of them.

Chris, you are right, Mile square is a golf course now. I guess that makes me a traitor. I'm planning to go to the Riverside contest on the 16th and 17th, maybe I'll see you there. My field will re-open on the 11th, we are getting the pits petromatted and the runway re-sealed, so I'll have a few days to practice. If you have a day during that week and want to come over, you could be my guest, in the afternoon there might be 2 or three of us and we take turns letting one guy fly at a tme.

Take the brake down to 20% and see if the problem persists. I've heard of a few issues where the brake was set too high causing hard restarts which could sound exactly like you describe. Some have this happen greater than 30%, but some have happened below it as well.

.
My plane was 'screeching' in flight until I took the brake off.  Originally I thought the motor was coming loose. . .
.

Hi Randy,
Thanks for the invitation, I'd love to take you up on it.
So far, so good at the Victorville contest. A bit windy, but a good turnout.
Chris...

Here is an idea.... make the pattern contests a one day deal....

There seems to be a bit of inefficiency getting planes in the air... a lot of waiting for people to fly...
If all the flights could be completed in one day... that is one less nite at a hotel?????

jus'sayin'

Randy - I am sorry that you did not get a response to your question on the NSRCA discussion group. Please feel free to contact me with any NSRCA questions that you have. I am the NSRCA District 7 VP. I probably do not monitor the NSRCA list as closely as I perhaps should. It's a shame that you missed the Victorville contest, while it was "kinda" windy I think everyone had a great time. We were also very fortunate to have Andrew Jesky (2 time Nats FAI champion and current World team member) attend and it was a real treat to watch him fl. In my opinion there is no better pilot in the USA right now!

Welcome to pattern in D7 and as I said please contact me with any questions.

Thanks,

I am curious...

are there a lot of pattern pilots that just don't go to contests... or are there not that many pattern pilots?

Funny... I see a lot of $3500 to $6500 40% gassers everywhere I fly.... I don't think money is as significant as people have suggested....

I think it is a lack of interest.....

many people don't like to be "Judged"... and that I think is a deterrant....

oh... one other notion.... to appeal to "New Comers".... we should make the "Goal" to become a better more accomplished pilot rather than winning a contest..... (Appeal to the self satisfaction aspect rather then "I outscored someone else" part)
Practicing and practicing so that we can win a trophy at the next contest ...well.. it got pretty hollow for me when I was competing in soaring back in the 80's and 90's....

mithrandir, you have mentioned several interesting areas that I would like to address. There are a large number of pattern flyers nationwide that do not attend contests for various and rea-
sons. For an example, I attended my first pattern competition in July of 1989 and there were 17 flyers in my Sportsman's class. Today you will see an average of 5-8 Sportsman flyers at any given contest. For the dedicated pattern flyer, money is usually not an issue as witnessed by their equipment ie, more money is generally spent as a flyer works his/her way up thru the classes. Currently, I feel there is a lack of interest for many reasons and it would be difficult to single out just one or two. I've found that after a few contests, most pattern flyers really don't mind if they are "judged". I eluded to this problem in one of my reponses earlier in this thread. The problem is, most realize when they and others around them are NOT being "judged" fairly. I think you know where I'm going from here. I say again, you cannot "judge" with a wink and a nod/grin and then "grease your buddy up" and then expect others to just go along and look the other way! Unfortunately, this happens more often than any of us care to admit. I can not tell you how many times I've seen this personally. I make a mental note to NEVER attend that particular
contest again. By doing so, I have made the decision to not be a willing participant! Hopefully, all of the contest directors out in pattern land will read my response and take action to avoid the possibilty of this happening and disqualify the participants caught in the act! Just my thoughts. Thanks for your response. Regards, Everette

I believe the level of participation or turnout at the lower levels has nothing to do with bias at certain contests (after all they have not competed long enough to know the difference). Some high level pilots may get out because they can't seem to beat one or more competitors because they believe rightly or wrongly that they are not being judged fairly but I think this is rare and is likely coming from someone looking for an excuse to get out of pattern. As a general rule I know when I fly good and when I don't. I routinely ask judges for feed back after I fly. I'm not in pattern to collect hardware I'm in it to improve my flying and hang out with good friends. I fly a lot more now than I did when I was a sport flyer. Pattern motivates me to go to the field. I've also learned more about the hobby than I ever would as a sport flyer. I've also met a lot of good people that I would have never met as a sport flyer.

Pattern isn't flashy and takes a lot of practice and discipline. In my opinion, those are the reasons why people don't want to particulate.

Most teens would rather chase girls and drive their car than fly pattern.

Ron, I appreciate your response. Each and everyone of us has a different opinion of this situation. I base mine on having attended many contests over the last approx 22 years. As stated, you have specific reasons to attend a given contest and I agree it's a great activity along with a large number of really good individuals to form lasting/trusting friendships with. But, don't think for a minute that these activites don't happen on all levels. It's unfortunate but, cheating has crept in to just about all sporting venues! I guess my goal is to try protect pattern competition so that it will not become extinct and we all windup standing around and whining about "the way things used to be"! I do not plan to sing that song! How's that positive note sound? No pun intended. Thanks again. Regards, Everette

For me, Pattern is a very negative sport.

I spend so much time looking for what's wrong and finding faults with my flying and equipment. Very rarely (if ever) do I say to my self "That double Immelman with full rolls was F-ing perfect" and I have NEVER yelled back to the pits with a "hey guys, check out this Figure M with 3/4 rolls!" or "Did you see that spin entry? Perfect nose drop before the rotation! Awesome!!"

It's a tough disipline to sell to onlookers and a tough disipline to maintain, most fliers are very happy to just get something into the air and keep it up. It's a simple joy I've lost and I admire (almost envy) them for still having it. My simple pleasure comes from free flight planes, small rubber band powered things and chuck gliders, getting one of those thing to fly well is still beyond me and is pure magic when I get a good flight but I'll never put a stopwatch on any of them because then the simple pleasure will be gone.

Probably an off-topic ramble......

That's the big mistake I think people make with pattern. For me, precision aerobatics is about personal improvement. While I do like competition, the reality is that when I'm competing over a piece of wood or plastic with a number on it, I don't care much. If I know I'm improving my skills, then that's what matters.

If you can't get past the bias in judging once in a great while (not only in the pattern world though) and just fly pattern because you enjoy it, and compete because you enjoy the people, and the atmosphere, then it's probably best you don't compete in anything really. Go sit in the corner and stare at the wall. hehe. There's bias in every sport, period! You don't see a hockey player quit cuz he got hooked and the ref saw it, but didn't call it cuz he's known to like the other team. Football, Nascar.. I could go on and on.

Seriously, I wouldn't quit competing because of that. Don't think many others would. Pattern declined for many reasons. Money, time, ease of getting 3d planes at cheap prices a long time ago. The glam from flying 3d (not bashing it, I fly it too). Make pattern planes easier to afford, then your attendance will improve some. Make gas prices go down, it may improve some. I've said it for years now. If it wasn't for the people/companies that help me out, I probably would not be able to afford pattern either. I would just get me a Yak or something and fly 3D at my home field cuz it's fun too. But cheaper.

Some D7 contests are down because of personal issue's/economy issue's/gas costs/timing conflicts and so on. It has 0 to do with bias! I think we are pretty good here about Bias. Does it exist, maybe once in a great while. Perhaps... But D7 is a HUGE district on the map. It's hard to justify spending $500 to go down to a southern contest from up north, or vice versa when there are enough contests you can attend in either the north or the south to satisfy your pattern craving. That's the great thing about D7 IMO. I know I couldn't or wouldn't go down south to fly if there was only a few contests in this district. It wouldn't increase the amount of people at the contest IMO. I would just stay home and fly. And not compete. So I do feel money is an issue somewhat. That's also why D7 doesn't have a great attendance at the nats. It costs so darn much to get there because it is so far! and the long trip is misery!

FYI, We had plenty of attendance last year at plenty of contests. This year the weather has been a big issue. Many of us didn't go to Phx because of it, and that also stopped some from going to Hesperia. I do feel that the North has grown a bit. But we are seeing some interest from a few new guys down south and also the San Diego crew (who are a fun bunch!)

Pattern for me comes down to something simple. I love to fly it. I love the people! And I love the contests! Win, lose. I don't care. I watch plenty of people come out and have the best time competing knowing they may take last place every contest. Cuz it all came down to the same simple reasons that I said. I have huge amounts of respect for those people!

Don't take the winning so serious and you will become a better pilot. I know it helped me.

Chris

The reason pattern is down is VERY simple. There are so many other options today for competitive people. In the 70's, 80's and even the 90's, pattern set the standard. Today, there is IMAC, heli's, jets, and others that allow people to compete without flying pattern. I bet the same number of people compete, but there are so many different disciplines out there. In the early 90's I bet most people thought of heli's as a novelty, now look at IRCHA, they get 800 pilots. Look at Joe Nall, they get 500 pilots. Those guys just like to fly. I don't want to hear the argument about how expensive it is....EVERYTHING is expensive, take up golf, bass fishing, cycling or anything else, you will spend at least as much and probably more. I'm not sure that including inflation that pattern is much more expensive now than it used to be. I think the expense certainly influences attendance. I would bet Disney and other resorts will say their attendance is down as well. Does this mean people don't want to have fun, no it just means that the cost is higher and its hard to justify going. In pattern, I would argue that the equipment isn't the expense. Go to 5-7 contests in a year by yourself and you will pay for a full blown pattern plane. On an average weekend of a contest 5 hours away, you will EASILY spend 300 for the weekend unless you have a travel partner. A usual pattern contest has between 20-30 pilots, and this allows everyone to get in 6 rounds before they go home. Try getting 40 pilots or more through 6 rounds in a weekend. The patterns take longer than they used to, thats a simple fact. Even with the shorter patterns, they all still take around 6 minutes. A major problem pattern has today is attracting the younger kids. I know at my club, the older guys are much more interested in flying pattern than the 14 year olds, as the 14 year olds, love heli's and 3D. I don't think most people gain an appreciation for pattern until you get older and realize the true level of difficultly. Lets be honest, if someone off the street shows up and is watching a top level pattern pilot, it is boring, because there is no way they can appreciated the true skill it takes. Whereas the same person shows up and sees a 40% flopping all over 4' off the ground, it is impressive with the size and noise. I know several guys who have flown IMAC for years and are coming back, if for no other reason it is much easier to deal with pattern size planes and they enjoy coming back to pattern. The bottom line is that we are NEVER going to have 50 pilots at a contest. IMAC, heli's and everything else are not going away. We need to help encourage new pilots to stick around. I know that at some point EVERYONE has felt they have been screwed by judges, HOWEVER, I would make the argument that everyone of us has also landed and though we flew horrible and received good scores. Over the course of a season I would bet that all the scores even out. I think overall the judging in pattern is pretty good...if you don't believe me, try flying IMAC, where a LOT of the rules are subjective, such as noise and airspace management. I know in every district I've ever been in, the guys I'm flying against are probably the most helpful and honest about what they see and what to do to fix it.

Arch

As always, well said Arch!

Trust me when I tell ya, money keeps me from attending some contests though. lol I have to be able to afford to take my boat to the lake also at $4.50 a gallon this year. So I plan to do a lot more flying at home, and less contests.

C

I've been fairly active in trying to boost attendance in aerobatics contests in the Denver area the last several years. We've tried quite a few things here, but the only thing that works a bit is individuals taking others under their "wings" and working with them one-on-one as friends. Then...maybe the newcomer will decide to give a contest a try.

I've become dis-interested in excuses people have for not coming to a contest. There are tons of them and they are ALL valid - bottom line is that guys will come if they can and want to. I allow myself one soapbox statement: "If you think that at some point in the future you may want to enter a contest, then you should consider bumping this year's events up on your priority list. Otherwise, the event may not be around when you want it to."

Dan

in my simple minded, unimportant and irrelavent opinion, I would have maybe 3 classes instead of 5 classes....

Sportsman, intermediasters and FAI... (Or 1, 2 & 3 or A, B C.. what ever...just 3 though)
.


the difference between 3D and Pattern????

in pattern... a mistake cost you a point or two......

in 3D .. it cost you a plane!! lol



My first love is 3D.... mostly 'cuz the planes are bigger, and I can fly close in where I can see it better....

The distances the current pattern is flown simply makes it nearly impossible for me... a 2 meter plane at 1000 feet is impossible for me to fly accurately 'cuz I can't see it very well........

Perhaps none of the above is relavent to declining attendance.... but for me.... getting rid of the "Box" and having a deadline say 100 feet out would be easier! (Prolly harder to judge)

But, I think if you wanna have more people in Pattern, we gotta make it funner..... (Thinking out loud here now...)
hmmm.. how to make it funner???? well.... make the "Sportsman" class a formally Unjudged class....???? the "Judges" instead provide realtime counseling to the Sportsman pilot??? (Or maybe a newbie class and leave sportsman as it is??)

yeah.. a "Newb" catagory... fly the sportsman sequence with the judges providing on the spot counseling/tutoring???
and this contestant pays $15.00 maybe??

Somehow it gotta be funner.....

I agree with Doug. If you aren't getting anything out of pattern when you are the field practicing and no one is watching, then it probably isn't for you. That is a mistake we commonly make is that everyone will enjoy pattern. In this society of instant gratification, pattern is not what you need. You wont fly for 3 weeks and be a world champ...it doesn't work that way. You have to be willing to pay your dues. You have to have a certain level of dedication to be competitive. We keep talking about the decline of pattern, but it is cyclical. When one district is down, another is growing. District 2 was hurting a few years ago, now they are growing like crazy. D6 has been very steady. D1 has some young talent that comes out and I'm hoping we can grow from there. In my opinion 3 classes would KILL pattern. A guy jumping from Intermediate to FAI is just asking for a crash and knowing for 4 years they will be learning rather than being competitive. We talk about pattern like it is dead. I don't see a major decline. I would bet the turn out this year at the NATS is up significantly, why because the worlds are here. I know of people who did NOT attend last year to save up and stockpile vacation time so they could be out there for 2-3 weeks this summer. I don't think it matters what you do at this moment until the economy improves that you will see a major change. If you want to increase participation, leave pattern alone and figure out how to get gas down to $1.00 a gallon again.

Arch