I like Arch's focus on the current rules. Rules should be followed, especially in a community where the members have the right to voice their opinions and make changes. I appreciate learning where our rules came from (I always hated history, but really find the history of pattern flying, and aviation, fun). If they don't make sense any more, then by all means lets do what we can update them.


I think discussion on weight limits should be a separate thread/topic. I understand it's directly related, however we all know how involved and passionate the conversation gets, and it will take away from all of the other things relevant to the 2012 NATS that this thread is about.

Rene, if this is a feeble attempt on your part to either discredit or embarass Mr. Frackowiak, the least you can do is a bit of research to learn how to spell Tony's last name correctly.........

The same could be said about the F3A World Championships... they weigh and sound check every model there but we ignore those procedures at local contests throughout the world - I don't hear anyone complaining about the 80th place finisher being weighed or sound checked.

Hardly an equal comparison, Derek. Doesn't the rules for an F3A World Championship require the weighing and sound checking of every competitor? Our rules do not. The World Champs bring only the top three fliers from each country flying the top class from each of those countries. Our Nats flies F3A then 4 AMA classes of a lower skill level then F3A. Again, not an equal comparison. Also, our rules do not specify that each and every model will be weighed at the conclusion of every flight. That is going above and beyond our rules. Here are our rules,

Wherever practical, all aircraft should be weighed prior to the start of the contest. If weight is being enforced then all planes competing in that class must be weighed before the same round (round 1 or otherwise) for a baseline. Only two attempts at making weight will be allowed on the day specified for weigh-in. If no calibration system is available for the scales, a tolerance of 50 grams will be allowed for possible inaccuracies in the measurement instrument. Random checks may be conducted at any time during the contest. An aircraft that has been damaged and repaired during the contest, after the initial weigh-in has been made, is subject to being reweighed. Repaired models failing the weight and/or size limits shall be disqualified for competition but recorded scores with the legal aircraft will stand. Aircraft qualifying for a Final shall be weighed and size-checked prior to the commencement of the Finals and may be checked again at any time during the Finals at the discretion of the CD / ED. Only one attempt at making weight will be allowed for a Finals weigh-in prior to the commencement of the Finals. In the event that the disqualification occurs amongst the Finalists at the Nationals, the next highest competitor shall be allowed to replace the disqualified competitor in the Finals. In the event that more than one or more Finals rounds have been flown at the time of a disqualification, no additional pilot will be invited to replace the disqualified contestant. Models shall be weighed in a manner that does not cause damage to the aircraft.

Our rules are specific that if weight is going to be enforced then there must be processing prior to the start of a round. Then random checks can be performed. Not every model weighed at the end of every flight.

I've made my point here. The simple fact is that the ED is making his own decisions without the input of the NSRCA BOD. I think that is wrong.

BTW, Rene, I was asked to ED the Nats this year. I declined as I still want to compete and I also wanted to learn more about the process before I would commit to being the ED. I specifically said I would be interested in ED'ing a future Nats. Arch also initially declined but he changed his mind when he went to the Nats Planning Meeting.

Tony, my apologies to you and thank you for the clarification.

Tony,

To clarify, as stated above in this post. Realistically I would like to weigh every airplane once a day. Every flight will probably prove to be too much of a headache. I don't understand what the problem is. It is not affecting overall manpower as I'm using people who aren't juding anyway. It also wont slow the day down as it will be done after a flight and will be at least 8 minutes or so before the next plane could possibly be ready to hit the scales as the next plane would be in the air. Trying to process every airplane when they show up requires a lot more time and effort. This should not affect the timings of flights whatsoever. Trying to do the weighing prior to the contests also makes it possible to skirt around the rules, whereas doing it after a pilot lands prevents this from being a possibility. So, please let me know why it is a problem that I am enforcing a rule? I am also not picking and choosing rules. I am enforcing everything that has been done in the past, only I am doing it to all planes, rather than a select few.

Also, and I have confirmed this with MULTIPLE sources both AMA and NSRCA. The ED is not at the disposal of the BOD. The NATS are an AMA event, not an NSRCA event. The NSRCA as the SIG supports the event, but the AMA is ultimately who runs the event. Just as in a local contest, the rules followed for them including santioning of the event go through AMA, NOT the NSRCA. In this case, I am simply choosing to enforce a rule that has not been enforced in the past. Also, I have not been invited to a BOD meeting, but will be talking to them at the next one, and offline I have spoken to some officers and VPs, as well as other prominent members of the pattern community about their thoughts on this, and those conversations have been overwhelmingly positive. To clarify, I am doing NOTHING that would require the NSRCA BOD to say anything as I am simply enforcing rules that have not been previously enforced. The only change to the rulebook is that I will am SPECIFYING they will be weighed after a flight. As ED, I am well within my rights to do this and am giving ample notice to the participants.

I have already arranged for courtesy weigh in's and made provisions for courtesy sound testing prior to the start of the pilots meeting on Sunday. The weigh in's will take place at the museum, and any pilot wishing to be weighed will be able to come there between 1-5 on Sunday. I am finalizing the location of the sound check, whether it will be in the parking lot with an area blocked off, or at one of the sites, those plans are still in the works, but will be available. I have also obtained the required volunteers to perform these jobs, so this is now set.

I have made the effort to announce these things months in advance so people can plan for them. Whether you choose to agree or disagee with me, that is your choice, but none of these decisions were made by me just sitting around thinking things up. Much communication and consultation has gone into EVERY decision that has been made and in the end, as the ED, I am the one 100% responsible for how things run. If the NATS go poorly, no one blames the NSRCA BOD, the issues fall squarely on the ED.

I do not plan to comment again on these specific issues as I think every question or concern has been adressed. Whether you get the answer you want is another question. I will post again regarding the NATS when more information the conestants attending need to know is available.

Arch

Arch,

You are not just enforcing a rule that is in the books, you are changing them. Since you have decided to stray from the actual rules in the rulebook, I have some questions.

The rules say you will have two tries to make weight on the day specified for weigh-in. What happens if someone is overweight after their flight? Do they get another try? What day will be the specified weigh-in day? Our rules now say IF weight is being enforced, then all planes competing in that class must be weighed before the same round (round 1 or otherwise). How will that be accomplished with your plan?

Tony,

As ED, I am allowed to deviate from the rules as long as I publish before hand what I plan to do, which is exactly why I am putting this out there now. I am actually not deviating from the rule, only the enforcement of that rule based on available manpower. If I was to raise the weight limit, that would be changing the rule. This clause is how we get away with specifying everyone must be a certified judge and that you have to work your "shift" or your highest round will be zeroed. Therefore I do not have to follow them exactly. There is no good way to weigh everyone after exactly the same round, so each plane will be weighed on each day. Also, according the rules if the plane failed weight twice on the same day then the plane could be disqualified. I am not planning to disqualify anyone, only the round in which the plane fails weight will be zeroed. I think this is more than fair to everyone involved. If every plane is weighed everyday one time, then every competitor is on equal ground and there can be no complaints that one competitor was weighed while another was not. I am well within my rights as ED to do this and I have verified this through the proper channels at AMA. As I just said, deviations from the rules can be made if published in advance. I believe that 9 months prior to the start of the event certainly qualifies as in advance. This is no different than a CD allowing any aircraft to fly in Sportsman at your local event. I have done my homework on ALL of this and would not make these announcements if I had not verified through every necessary channel that things can be done this way.

Arch

Remind me never to volunteer to be an ED.

Arch

Kudo's to you for stepping up and doing this! And Kudo's for attempting to follow the rules as close as you can, including the cut off date. I don't understand why it's so hard if we know 8 months in advance to have a cutoff date and why there is even a conversation going on regarding it as an issue. If there is a cutoff date to pay your water bill, you pay it. How is it so hard to sign up for the nats by the cutoff date? I don't get it.. Rules are rules, we don't all agree with every rule, but if they are set in stone, we should just buck up and follow what rules the Event Director sets forth. And appreciate the extensive amount of time that he/she put's into this for us.

I'll just say this, not everyone knew we could sign up late last year. If I had known, you would have most likely seen me at the nats. I didn't have a flyable plane come the cutoff date so I didn't sign up. I was frankly po'd when I found out that there were late entries (of course I didn't find out till the week before the nats). No where on the sign up sheet did it say that we could sign up late. Matter of fact, there was a cutoff date. No where did it say that the ama doesn't follow the cutoff date and I could just call and sign up late as the official entry form didn't matter. I found it a humiliation to our national contest that rules aren't followed.

Chris

I completely disagree with how you plan on implementing the weight rules. The current rules specifically outline the process to use IF you are going to enforce the weight rules. Your process is not according to the rules. The rules say that planes must be weighed BEFORE a round, not during or after. And they say you will have two attempts on that day to pass. Everyone should be able to officially process their models, get them officially approved, and then only have to sweat out a possible random check rather then being put on the spot every flight.

Let me tell you a story. In 1999 I was preparing for the Team Trials with a Gator Giles 202. Before I left I weighed it on a NASA calibrated scale and it was 30 grams under the weight limit. I went to Florida for the contest and during processing on their scale it weighed 40 grams over the weight limit. I was sick with a gall bladder attack so it was up to my friend Greg Frohreich to rip out of the model what he could to get it within the limit. If anybody thinks that every electronic scale will weigh the same all the time, they're kidding themselves.

I believe as ED your choice is to either enforce the weight limit as outlined in the rules or to not enforce it. I suppose you can cover this by claiming it is your right as the ED. So be it. I also suppose it will now be everyone's decision whether to enter the Nats or not based on your decisions. I guess at least those that argue that the weight limit is only the problem of the few at the Nats who make the finals will now lose that argument!

Closing point. What do you think will promote getting the most contestants at the Nats? Just weighing the Finalists or weighing everyone every day of the Nats?

Tony,

I understand your point. The goal of the NATS is that it is still a competition and the rules should be followed as closely as possible. I am not changing the rules, I am simply coming up with a different way to implement them due to the logistics involved. I know for a FACT of an airplane that has flown in the finals when it was overweight, but yet through some simple manipulation it was legal the night before. And before you say anything it was NOT my airplane. It is very easy to calibrate the scales regularly, and if the scales read the same when calibrated, then they will be accurate. I have used my set of scales and weighed my planes many times and I have yet to see any discrepancies. I work for the government and have no doubt that some NASA scales read differently. A scale can read anything depending on recently it was calibrated. If the same scales the competitors are given access to on sunday prior to for the courtesy weigh in are used in the contest, then there should be no discrepancies. If you choose to weigh before a flight, this really becomes a headache for the glow guys as they can't even fuel their planes until they are weighed. This also allows anyone the possibility of making changes to their airplane. Weighing after eliminates this. Several years ago, weighing immediately after a flight was used in the finals and it worked except for the fact we had no tent or any area to put the planes in, so they were much more apt to register differently due to the wind. This did prove though, that the plane was legal as it had just flown. This system and these scales were were good enough for the World Championships, so I am not sure why it would not be good enough for our Nationals.

I would be very interested to hear your explanation of why an airplane would weigh differently after a flight than before, ignoring the obvious exhaust on a glow airplane, which is allowed to be wiped off if necessary to make weight. So I don't understand the point of why it HAS to be weighed prior to a flight unless that person would want to make a change to their plane after it passed weight.

As I have said I have heard significantly more positive comments from those who regularly attend the NATS than negative ones. If someone doesn't like the weight rule, then change it, but I am well within my rights to change when I check the weight of the plane. Based on the rules you stated earlier I could randomly check a plane at any time, and this would include after a flight, so the only difference is when the initial weigh in takes place.

Arch

Is the Nats about getting attendance? I wasn't aware of that. I thought is was a National contest. The absolute best contest for the US.. Why deviate from what's printed.. Heck, let's just throw out the rules and fly 3d if it don't matter..

Chris,

I agree that it is not 100% about attendance. I don't expect to see a significant change anyway. Most pattern people tend to make every effort to ensure their plane is legal anyway. If it wasn't a logistical nightmare I would be more than willing to weigh every airplane prior to the start and then "randomly" weigh every airplane once a day during the contest. As it is, I have people available during the contest. I could easily make sure every plane is weighed Monday before anyone flew, but the only thing that would do is make is at the site until late Monday. By checking after flights once a day, this won't be the case. I am not sure I understand the reasoning why the planes HAVE to be weighed prior to. I understand this is how it is stated in the rule book, but as ED I can deviate from this. The only deviation is the implementation of the rule, not the actual weight limit in the book.

I do have the McCullough Center on site reserved for Sunday, so if people would rather spend the day waiting in line to be "officially" processed rather than practicing on Sunday, I have the volunteers and the area reserved for this. This technically would eliminate any questions from the rules as any weigh after that would be "random" Somehow I believe most people would rather just courtesy weigh if they are concerned, or just wait til Monday as I would be very few if any will actually fail weight anyway.

Arch

I think if planes were weighed before, and the "removable" items (for electrics) were weighed and tagged then that would be acceptable. Therefore the scale/weigh system during the contest doesn't have to be done. Not even spot checks. If it's an electric, a person could be assigned to check the tags of the planes before or after flight this way, as the plane weighed in at the check in day with the tagged batteries (including rec packs) so as long as the tagged packs were in, then you know it's good. The tags could be a weird zip tie or something around the wires that couldn't be removed and put on another pack.

Either way, I'll follow whatever you lay out as a rule.. Don't make me no difference.

Chris

Chris,
To hopefully set your mind at ease, I just want to say that the rumors of late entries were greatly exaggerated. Those that were thought to be late, actually were not as their registration form was in prior to the cutoff date and the AMA processed the registration forms after that date. The contestants did do their part and had their forms in on time. There was one flier out of everyone that indeed was late. That person called the AMA and said basically....I know I'm late, may I still register? The AMA personnel said Yes you may. The contestant said...I know Ineed to pay a late fee. The AMA personnel said....Let me see if I can get that waived for you. This person was allowed to fly because the AMA made the mistake, not the pilot. That pilot, in turn, did pay the late fee when requested. That is the only real pilot in the Nats that was late. The NSRCA, Arch and the AMA have communicated jointly that this will not happen again. Cutoff dates are final and that's that.

I hope you don't look at what was rumored to have happened as a direct humilation of our national contest versus what really happened. During the NSRCA Board Meeting prior to the start of the Nats, the NSRCA and AMA took out every single person that was "listed" as being late that was allowed to fly. Before the start of competition it was determined that the contestants had their stuff in on time and that the AMA simply processed it late. The only other issue was with a form of payment that was corrected after the deadline but the contestant still had his form in on time.

I hope this clears at least something up,
Scott

Chris,

Since you decided to bring it up, I am going to let everyone know what happened and they can decide what's what. Sorry for the length.

I am on a very limited budget these days. I have had health issues and I am now on disability. Going to the Nats on my own is a $3,000 trip which these days I cannot afford. So I was very happy when I could make an arrangement with Jon Carter to drive his van and a trailer with Jarvis Johnson's stuff to Muncie and back. This cut my costs way down. The plans were originally made when Chris told Jon he wasn't going to go to the Nats. This was around April this year. But Chris kept going back and forth on whether he was going to go or not. First he wasn't, then he was, then he wasn't. If Chris went, I wasn't going to be able to as he and Jon would go together. Because of this I was not sure I was going to go until quite a bit later. At the time when Jon and I confirmed everything, Jon asked me if I had entered yet. I said no, but it was still July 2nd and the contest didn't start until August 2nd, so I thought I was still good. But when I checked the cut-off this year was June 30th for a contest that started August 2nd. So I called the AMA on July 5th and told the woman there that I had a problem. I told her that the deadline for entering the pattern Nats had passed but I was wondering if I could still enter. She said that she would accept my entry so I happily went ahead and entered. If she had said no I would have been out. I then shortly after received all the paperwork confirming my entry. Good on her!

Maybe I should have sent in my entry as soon as there was any chance I might go. But money is tight and I didn't want to spend it unless I knew for sure I could attend. Especially since there was no refund.

On July 25th I drove from my place to Jon's with all of Jarvis's stuff in my van. On July 26th I left Jon's place for Muncie. 50 miles from Jon's place on the I-5 the trailer blew a tire. Right when I was in the middle of that Jim Quinn called me. He told me that Chris had told Archie that I had entered the Nats after the deadline. Archie then complained to someone about it and Jim was calling me to tell me that I would not be allowed to fly in the Nats. I of course was not happy. I and two others had already spent quite a bit of money and time to go. Now in the middle of a blown tire on the I-5 I was being told by someone that I might as well turn around and go home. That started two hours of telephone calls between myself, Jon, Rusty Fried and Dave Mathewson. Keep in mind, if I couldn't go, Jon's and Jarvis's plans were also shot. Rusty immediately said that he would honor my entry. I don't know all that went on at AMA but eventually I got a call telling me that all was good, the AMA had made a mistake accepting my entry, but that it would be honored. So I went to Muncie and flew in the Nats. Shame on me I guess. But I'm sure this and the couple of others who were able to enter past the deadline is why some are getting so wrapped up about the deadline date now.

You guys can decide if allowing me to fly was a complete humiliation of our national contest. I think it's a humiliation to keep anyone out of our national contest that decides they would like to enter it. Particularly if they just screw up like I did. The woman at the AMA the day I called with my problem understood that and I am very grateful to her. Especially since she probably just caught a lot of flak for it.

When I was still on the NSRCA BOD I pushed to get entry as late as possible without an excessive penalty. The majority of the BOD agreed and they set much more relaxed deadlines then what Arch eventually agreed to at the Planning meeting. What's done is done and I can live with it. But since losing my previous income level I'm a lot more sensitive about trying to do this on a budget.

So go ahead and shoot away.

Tony,

A correction, Jim was not made aware of anything initially by me. It was originally discovered by a pilot who was already in Muncie for the Worlds. This pilot is the one who initially brought it up. I found out about it after many others who were already in Muncie for worlds knew about it. Those same people will tell you that while I thought you should not be allowed to fly as it was the RULES, I was also the first one to state that I wanted you to be able to fly for the competition. I did not ever offer to file a formal protest and when I was told you were already on the road, I dropped it and didn't say another word.

Last year was different. The dates were screwed up because the NATS were held so much later and as such and it caused a headache. This year, you are being told you can register early and get all but 45.00 back, which is the AMA processing fee, which they will not refund, so choosing to go to the NATS could have cost you at most 45.00 if you backed out, based on the rules in place.

Arch

I probably just don't understand, but why all this constarnation about entry deadlines? Couldn't we figure out how to run a Nats allowing everyone who shows up to fly? Charge a heafty late fee after a certain date, but it seems to me with some study and planning we could figure out how to let someone enter even after the contest has started. We do it at every other contest in the country. If it's to be truly a National Championship we should try to accomodate everyone who shows up. We put a man on the moon, this can't be that difficult if we went into the planning process with that objective.
Dave Burton

Dave,

It is not that hard. I set a deadline based on recommendations by MULTIPLE previous ED's. I chose to move this deadline closer to the actual event. While Tony and others want the deadlines moved closer they are not the ones who have to deal with any headaches put in place. Everything in life has deadlines, I don't see why this is any different. Many other NATS events have deadlines, and the ones that don't are usually events that only require timing and things where they do not use contestant judging or have to put together flight orders. In the future, maybe we can look at moving it to one week out. I chose to do it this way as based on the information I was given this was the best move. Future ED's can do anything they want, but I chose to do it this way, and still find it hard to believe that 2 weeks out you don't know if you are going to the NATS. Tony's story above is an obvious exception, but had the woman at the AMA officially said no on July 5, this does not happen. What created the problem was that the person at the AMA accepted the registration after the deadline. This year, that will not happen and that goes for ALL events with late deadlines. This was backed up by the competition people at the NATS planning meeting.

We put a man on the moon by people who were paid a good deal of money to get it done. This event is run by volunteers and while these volunteers are given some monies to help, it doesn't come anywhere near the amount to cover the trip to Muncie. This is all done on the volunteers own time and I have put many hours into this already. I really do not want to be up til 4am the night of the event trying to put together judging matrix's and flight orders so that at 8am that morning people like Tony can complain that they weren't given the flight orders earlier.

Arch

Arch,
Hope you don't misunderstand me, I'm not faulting what you are doing in any way and I know putting together the event is difficult and need good planning and organization. It may not possible to do in 2012. I just think in future NATS it's possible to plan it in such a way that the deadlines could be so flexible to allow late entry up to the day of the contest. I think there will always be a few people who find out at the last minute they can attend just as a few find at the last minute they can't go. We need to try to accomodate them if possible IMO. Perhaps all that's needed is to slot them into a "no-show" position from a waiting list. If we can do it at every other contest in the country, it could be done at the NATS if we went into the planning process with that intention.
Dave

Tony and Scott, pm sent..

Tony, I'm as broke as you, probably more broke bro. I ain't knockin what happened with the late entries, I can dig it. I didn't know I could enter late as I read the cutoff date and assumed that was the date because I am a "follow the rules" kind of guy for the most part. I just don't know why rules aren't followed at the "pinnacle" event in the US. Think they would take a late entry for the worlds? Why are we any different.

So I can dig that money can be an issue for entering at the last minute, that's the main reason I didn't enter. Heck, I worked maybe 1 month in the last 6.. Getting ready to shut my company down and look for a job.. I could have finished my Opium, and flown the nats. I was assuming I was going to get wings for my Neptuno by the nats. But I had to make the decision on the cutoff date and I did. I couldn't attend. 1 week later I had flown my Opium and would have chosen to go. So you see my reason for being upset when I found out..

Anyway, rules are rules. And are dictated by each individual ED a little different so it seems. I can dig that. Can't we quit giving Archie a hard time and just adhere to the plan he's laying out? It's that simple. Whatever he lays out, it's well in advance, so we all know.. So we just do it..

C

Arch,
I'm sorry you are getting so much flak. I, and I hope many others, appreciate you stepping up and taking on this huge task.
I also appreciate your efforts to nail down procedures as early as possible. Even if there are things I disagree with, I think there is often benefit to cutting the CD some slack so that he won't get pissed and quit!

Regards,
Dan

Chris,

You stated that entries past the deadline made the Nats a complete humiliation. That is really knocking what happened. You were fully aware that I was an entry past the deadline. Connect the dots.

As to what were the exact chain of events, I'll go with what you guys are saying here. But I was told different by the original person that called me about it. You might want to check with him.

As to just doing whatever the ED wants, I disagree. This is December for a July Nats. If we can't discuss things now and try to make them the best, then where are we? Archie started this discussion with this thread. I am voicing my disagreement.

Archie, I think your last comment could be taken as a cheap shot. But it is answered by what the NSRCA recommended for a deadline. I believe that was two or three days before the Nats started. In my opinion you're going to have to be adjusting the flight orders and the judging matrix for no-shows anyhow. And if you think that even with a smooth running Nats you're not going to have some 4am bedtimes, I think you are mistaken. I saw what Jon Carter had to do with scoring several times. And I know what Rusty had to do. It's why I decided not to be the ED this year and learn more first.

BTW, do you know how many protests I have ever filed in my entire competition career? Should be an easy answer. Because I have never filed one.

I didn't say complete humiliation. Maybe you outta read it again. I said "a" humiliation. There were many things about the nats that I liked last year. So not complete. Just partial.

Converse as much as you want Tony. It's a forum and that's why we all come here. I hope I am free to voice my opinion on this also. Rules are rules. Why are you against following them?

And BTW, I will attend the nats if they are run by the rules. I won't attend if they are run apparently how you would run them Tony. So maybe there may be more entries..


Chris