That's what happens when people stop developing building skills and depend on someone else to build their stuff as light as possible. Developing the "build it light and strong enough" skill takes years of practice

8 ozs glow fuel doesn't get you through 1 competition flight? Are F3A schedules that demanding that you need to run full throttle constantly? I don't see that in local contests, in any wind

Fun? Why else would one do this?

The 40% more Nats attendance quoted above is off. The fact is, as of 1/12/2012, only17 individual (16%) indicated they would not attend because of plane being over weight.

However, the data stops here and we do not know how much their planes are overweight, and by how much. Do they care about trimming some weight off if feasible? I and others have shown ideas to remove dead weight without, or with very little $$$. On the contrary, I have not seen solid examples of somebody's planes being overweight and by how much.

For reason 3 above, I just looked at Hobbyking.com, f3aunlimited.com, and hobbyparts.com where one can purchase good quality f3a batteries. The classic 5c 5000mah ones are readily available. No shortage. Price-wise, you pay extra to get lighter ones and I believe you can periodically get good deal from f3aunlimited.com on lighter packs.


I figured that once the weight-rule is removed, somebody will request the removal of the size rule, because of their planes being too heavy and planes with increased wing area/span could economically fix the problem. There is no reason the request is not considered as we have done so for the weight rule. Pretty quickly, the noise rule will be gone.

My question is why we want to remove the current rule that make the pattern plane and their flying so unique. Do you really want to fly pattern with your other non-pattern planes?

TonyF,

Did you have problems meeting the weight requirement in your previous championships?

Pardon my cynicism, but just wondering here if the newfound interest in the weight limit is due to a new kind of drive system that weighs a bit more and maybe needs a few more mAh's to get the job done?

If so, the argument that raising the weight limit will lower costs has just fizzled.

+1

Newfound interest? I made a proposal during the last rules cycle to change the weight limit. I have been trying to get it changed for the last two to three years.

This is an example of the real problem. When you try to get a rule changed for the improvement of the entire event, there is that group that thinks you have selfish, ulterior motives. Makes it very difficult to want to do anything for the event.

Try again Bob.

I personally feel the weight limit as a safety issue. IMO there are too many 2M airplanes having structural failures. Combination of two things, the 11 lb weight limit and the current trend towards violent snap rolls. Brings up another question for me, why when as I see it, pattern is supposed to be smooth and graceful are we required to do 900 degree per second snap rolls? I know there is nothing in the rules that specify this spec however last contest I attended I was seriously downgraded for my snaps being too slow. Quote from both the judge and CD.

Personally I'd like to see the weight rule eliminated in the AMA classes. Keep the 78'' rule but don't worry about the weight. I flew pattern in the 80's and early 90's and stopped because I got tired of all the airplanes looking the same. I flew IMAC up until a few years ago and stopped because the most of the contests are about 3 hours away. I really miss competing and have a 78 inch Edge that I would fly in pattern or IMAC at the closer contests. Problem is it weighs 15 lbs so it's not legel in Pattern. Yes I know I'm not going to win but I don't care. I just want to fly a plane that I like the looks of.

Speedracer,

Slower snaps in Pattern or IMAC? I would downgrade the more violent snap because these make it impossible for me as a judge to see the break. That's 5 points minimum per the rules.....

I too have seen a recent trend towards more and more violent, fast, blurred snapping maneuvers. I've downgraded a little in the past several contests for lack of entry visibility but I will start to downgrade more severely when I can't tell the entry break.

The judge and CD were wrong! There is absolutely nut'N is the rules regarding how fast this particular maneuver is to be done. I'd suggest that you get Jon Carter involved

I'd say call ahead. I seriously doubt any CD or competitor will have a problem with you flying a 15 lb Extra against the other thoroughbred models here in the NE.

Do I know you here in Jersey? Maybe Lochowski knows you

From the survey, 16% would not attend, 9% are on the fence about attending, 12% finds it a challenge to attend, 4% would fly anyway and just take the beating with zeroing every round. So I took those groups and determined an approximate increase in Nats attendance could possibly be 40%. I think it would be higher. I tried purchasing the lower weight zippy 20c from Hobby King US Warehouse to save some doe on shipping and all they had was 25c, heavier. The international warehouse still has the 20c, lighter, but you get hit with a rather large shipping penalty. It seems their is a manufacturing trend towards higher c batteries (heavier). I could be wrong on that, but that's where it seems to be going and we are such a low profit margin group for them, I doubt we as a group would have much influence either way to have them manufacture special breed batteries that we crave, and the weight rule demands. We pay extra for the lighter ones and is the larger part of the argument here, cost. Flying Jets, using turbines, noisy IMAC type planes, having a weight rules makes us unique, and a conspiracy movement to remove all rules, and or persons having ulterior motives are all presumptive evidence or conjecture, IMHO. You can always put the weight rule back in place, right?

Just when I thought I was out...they pull me back in...

So that isn't a consideration at all?

My sincere apologies.

No, it isn't. Because I easily made weight in 2010 without the Contra and again easily made weight in 2011 with the Contra. I have met every rule required at every Nats, Team Trials or World Championships I have competed in. It isn't about what would be best for me. It is about what would be best for an event that is dropping in participation and needs a refresh to try to stem the loss.

Did you also contend that the speed limit should not be raised from 55mph? Cars would get faster and less economical because they need bigger engines to go faster. Since you can go faster, it takes less time to travel by car and is still cheaper than flying so then the airline industry goes out of business because everyone is driving and fuel companies stop producing Jet A and now the whole world is in anarchy!!

What stops "IMACtype planes" from entering contests with their noisy engines now? Oh wait, that's the 2M rule. What stops people from having noisy engines now regardless of weight or size? Oh, that's the noise rule. Do you REALLY think someone is going to come to a contest with the weight rule removed with a loud engine because they can? Ican't imagine someone doing that. Their fellow competitors would be all over them and its just a little far-reaching. Is it possible to get my question answered without speculating? As a refresher, my question is why do we have the weight rule now and why was it implemented? What purpose, in today's competition, does the weight limit serve? Is it a safety concern?

As you guys ponder my questions, let it be known that I make weight with my F3AUnlimited batteries v2. This isn't about me, this is about exactly what Tony said.

"Noisy IMAC planes" don't need to be noisy. We pattern competitors have figured out (20 years ago or more) how to quiet models of reasonable displacement with minimal weight gain.

Why do we have a weight rule? Dunno. Are lighter planes safer? Yes if they are 2 lb park fliers. No difference in safety between a 11# and 13# plane when it hits you. Can an 11# 2m plane be built strong enough for any flying we impose on it? Yup! Requires judicious use of strong stuff. Will it survive a crash? Nope!

Time to hibernate agin from this thread. It is going absolutely nowhere fast

EXACTLY 100% correct

So why not let the xx% have an opportunity to partake in our sport that can't, for whatever reason, make weight?

Why not just go with a 5500 gram limit for all AMA classes with a 1% tolerance. That should keep any development of AMAspecific airplanes limited. I don't believe we want to get to far adrift of the FAI rules.
Any two meter pattern plane should be able to meet that limit, no matter how many air molecules have stuck to the plane over the years.

This is presented as a compromise between two opposing viewpoints that just keep repeating the same arguments over and over, year after year.

John

That's all fine and good, Matt. I honestly don't think most people want to put in any legwork to make their choices conform to specs. They want a plug and play option.

If people won't make weight without a fuss, heaven forbid they actually try and make their powerplant quiet without sacrificing performance. I think instant gratification has finally trickled down into pattern.

If I remember correctly the original reason for the weight rule was to keep some of the TOC airplanes out. At the time the weight rule when into effect the TOC and IMAC airplanes were not as big as they turned out to be now. I remember at the time Dean Pappas had an Laser that weighted 18 lbs and would fit in the box with the short spinner. At the time the pattern flyers didn't want to deal with those airplanes.

That was 20 or so years ago. The difference in these airplanes has gotten so wide that I don't see it as a problem anymore. Heck when I started flying pattern you were not allowed an engne bigger that a 60. Then the 4 stroke people got it changed to 60 2 stroke and 120 4 stroke. That rule was dropped when it stopped being an issue. The difference between a pattern airplane and an IMAC airplane is now so large that you do not need the weight rule. Keep the size and lose the weight. At least in say the lower couple classes.

They use to allow a bigger airplane in sportsman to try to bring in new blood. I didn't do it because I hate the sportsman pattern. I want to fly advanced. I know this would help me restart.

+1 Ryan! I could not agree with you more. Like I said before, you definitely have a way with words!___Everette

While I don't fly pattern, the competition events I am interested in are very weight critical and require careful selection of all materials to reduce weight so I can appreciate this discussion.

Unnecessary grams become ounces, unnecessary ounces become pounds. I think about weight like it was money - you want to "spend" it wisely.

Hobbypartz has 20C 5s 5000mAh batteries [link=http://www.hobbypartz.com/77p-sl5000-5s1p-20c-5555.html]HERE[/link] for $51.66.

They had the 4400 5S 40C's on sale around the holidays for $39 each and no shipping charge. I got a couple of them. $78 for a set of competition batteries on your doorstep. What more do you want?

I remember having these discussions in '10 and the question and answer remain the same.

http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/fb.asp?m=9396600

I don't want anything. I'm taking my toys and going home.

So I guess the CDs should start weighing planes too since some over weight planes have gotten out of hand. Lol

My point being the biggest iMAC plane that could possibly show up would be a 50cc. A piped 50cc with proper throttle management could be quite in the air. On the ground would take some work. Fuse is a drum for noise, let's not forget about the intake noise and the huge spinner that is also a drum.

I believe rules should change for the entire organization to progress. Not for an indivuduals progress. Airplanes and equipment change why not some of the rules. I don't have a problem making weight because I choose to, because I fly at the national level.

Let's look at this from a different approach. Just look at some of the inconsistances in ARFS. I have two identical planes. Both have identical equipment. One weighs 25 to 30 grams lighter. Both built within months of each other. Batteries the same way. I have scene it in all manufactures. Someone said when we build the planes ourselves we are more weight conscious. That is correct,but not many build anymore. I would love to design my own again someday, but I don't see that one happening for awhile.

I have been flying pattern since the eighties. I would call myself a pattern purist even though I fly IMAC too. It cracks me up how both side agree and disagree on stuff. Pattern is afraid an IMAC plane will show up. IMAC is afraid a pattern plane will show up if the 10% rule was eliminated. iMAC doesn't like the box. Pattern can't live without the box. I prefer the box myself. The one thing both sides agree on. Is that both are still looking for that perfect flight in the air where it matters anyway!!!!