BR289

My Feedback: (106)

Very interesting idea....

MTK

I agree that some form of control needs to be thought through as to the type of model to be used. This may be as simple and straight forward as "no "REAL" Pattern planes allowed", "fly what you brought other than that". That's why it needs some form of guideline to be thought through by the SIG for PA.....

Hmmmm, intimidation, I'm not so sure about that one. If a guy wants to fly a full blown IMAC/3D ARF like an EF 78" Extra, I'd say let 'im. Pattern as a whole doesn't penalize the model as I've heard happens in other disciplines.....Besides, it would be great fun if that same Extra lost to a trainer. Bragging rights galore!! And a beer afterwards

I would bet dollars to donuts that no matter what a fellow flies, the best thumbs will win at the end of the day. The sequences involved are likely to be "super simple" so it is possible for a Kadet or Falcon to win in good sport hands.

llindsey1965

My Feedback: (-1)

yes make it so a beginner and sportsman can enter and compete with planes they can afford and then move up to more expensive planes later on  , i think it would be excellent for the hobby!!!!

bafflerback

My Feedback: (6)

It amaze me how every hobby whether it’s pattern flying, racing or checkers keeps having this same conversation, and nothing seems to change. We always want to make an easier class to attract the beginners. We make the class and if it works at all it doesn’t work long. The problem isn’t always the idea it’s the execution.

Back when pattern was starting with the Turn-A-Round format the beginner’s class was called Novice. It started out being a very easy Turn-A-Round class. The experts said that this was too hard and you needed something easier to attract the beginners. So the class breaks were added. Now the Novice could fly three maneuvers and break the box to reposition his airplane for the next 3 maneuvers. Basically what you have now.

Then it was thought that you weren’t getting any new people because the class was called Novice. The feeling was that no one wanted to fly novice because they were better than that and the Sportsman class was too big a jump. So Novice became Sportsman and you called the old Sportsman class Intermediate and made it easier. Still no one came. Now you want another easier class. The classes aren’t the problem. The effort required to do this, like all forms of competition is the problem.

Like most people that compete when you go to the field what do you do? You practice. You fly flight after flight with your expensive pattern airplane and get better and better. You are willing to help anyone that has an interest but no one usually says anything. It is conceived that to be competitive in pattern you need to practice every day with your expensive airplane.

Even if I approach you about getting involved, this first thing I’m told is that you’d love to help but my airplane is too big or too heavy and if I want to compete I need to get a different airplane. Or if I call the CD at the contest 3 hours from my house he might let me fly my airplane. Unless someone protests.

I’m going to cut this because it’s getting a little long. But, if you want to bring new blood into Pattern try to make entering the contest easier not the maneuvers. I can go to an electric fly less than an hour from my house and fly any electric airplane I own. I have to build a different airplane, practice forever, and travel 3 hours to fly pattern. You decide where as a beginner I’m going to go.

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

The idea of beginner clinics is maybe better than a full-blown class IMO. You take the pressure out of the scenario by eliminating the 'contest' and just make it an informative, extended coaching session. You get accomplished people to spend a couple days going over people's airplanes, answering questions, and offering technique improvements. Then having people flying in front of those coaches with no pressure to score well or compete for trophies, and give them additional coaching on how to improve and progress.

Malydilnar

My Feedback: (1)

I think that we, the pattern guys are just too small of a community. An example of this is that why dont large manufacturers sell actual competitive pattern planes? I think that if a large company/distributor put up a 2m pattern plane that didn't cost so much we would see a large grow of participants. Just imagine if HobbyKing sold a decent sized pattern plane that flew somewhat ok and looked right. I don't agree with the club class though, because then there are already five classes and with the participation that we've had over the last couple of years, there wouldn't be alot of competition in the lower classes. I think that rather than a club class, the sportsman class should get a little easier, with shorter maneuvers (ex. a single loop rather than a double loop) and maybe one more turn around. Just my 2 cents...

-Alex D8

Doug Cronkhite

My Feedback: (34)

I think the last time a 'major' manufacturer got into the pattern arena it was a disaster. Goldberg released Dave Patrick's Finesse, and I think they sold a dozen or so before discontinuing it.

Extreme Flight is in with both feet with the Vanquish 2m at $649, and I seriously doubt you could build it any cheaper and keep it capable of the maneuvers and under the weight limit.

rcflyer4fun

I think the biggest reason why those on the fence don't give it a shot is because they are really not sure what's expected even after reading up about it all. Nobody wants to go out there and make a fool out of themselves. That is why it should be simplied to a level a guy could read up about it in his AMA handbook, practice it on his own if he wishes till one builds up enough confidence to compete in a contest. And the manuevers should all be basic stunts a trainer could do it. I'm sure clubs all over the country would pick up on it and have a club class only contest just for fun. Scoring should be kept basic 0-10 scores so no computer system would be needed to calculate scores.

Evan

AXman330

Its really simple guys, make a sequence that anyone can fly an electric ARF (you know, the molded foam types...T-28, etc.) and present the event as more of a "social" event and you may expose more people to an aerobatic discipline. Like most of you, I pretty much fly only pattern and IMAC and really enjoy it, however, the vast majority of people in this hobby don't want to spend big$$$$ on one airplane (it seems that the sky is the limit for what you can fly, ducted fan jets, 3D, scale, etc.). From my experience being around "sport flyers" is that they want cheap stuff to fly (with t he appropriate flight characteristics and durability associated with it) and they don't really care if they can fly a straight line or not (for most of them landing without damaging their model is a big enough accomplishment). However, the average sport guy/gal seems to enjoy the social life associated with being at the flying field. If "pattern" people can learn to socialize with the "sport" folks and ease them into precision flying. I have turned a few pilots to IMAC when I demonstrated to them that a bigger model is much easier to fly, and see, as well as fly when the wind picks up, prolonging the flying day.

Yes, its cool that we are flying our big dollar electric pattern airplane or 42% IMAC plane, usually migrating to the other club members with the same interest (and being seen as "snobs" by the rest of the club, not that we are, but we are more focused on what we do with our models), but unless we get out and socialize with the others, it will be  tough road to recruit more "precision pilots". On the club contest note, it is an idea that should have been out a long time ago (btw-what happened to SPA events?) and before a sequence is formatted, I suggest one take the time to passively observe how most "sport" flyers fly their models. You may be surprised how little they can actually do while having the confidence to  do it.

Good Luck to all...

Bill Clark

maybe a better solution to all this is to go over to the beginer,3d, sport, etc forums and ask them what would get them into pattern instead of a bunch of pattern guys speculating 

Phantom Phixer

My Feedback: (3)

from another perspective, I've tried to encourage some fellow flyers to venture into pattern / IMAC type of flying, and the number one problem that is mentioned is "time".

its maybe a regional issue, more than national, but having the time to participate in a weekend of flying is the number one comment I field when I discuss with someone about venturing from stick banging to our format.

The second being the economy and the difficulty for many to field a weeknd of flying with associated cost and then fly against someone with a serious plane in the same clas.

So maybe a solution to these 2 issues and a hidden benifite would be more 1 day events aimed at the beginner, novice, whatever you want to call him / her only

The hidden benifite that I think would materialize is that more local fields / clubs would be receptive to a one day closure of their facilities to hold and event, and again, it would be open to virtually everyone in the club. If the seed planted takes hold, the participant would hopefully become more involved and move into the main stream.

sps3172

Here's .02 from a current non-participant.....

I've seen or been involved in this 'type' of discussion many times before. Tons of R/C cars sold.....HARDLY ANY ever make it to the track. In Archery, it was 'how can we get all the bow hunters to come shoot our tournament?'......The golf guys look for ways to get the recreational players to join a league.....I've tried for YEARS to get dirt bike riding buddies to sign up for an actual race.....and on and on and on.

It seems that MOST people don't enjoy being measured, scored, aprasied and or more importantly, BEATEN. People can make excuses about not having enough time....not having enough money.....etc etc. At the end of the day, most folks aren't looking for anything even remotely resembling negative feedback. When forced to fly specific manouvers, one's weaknesses are prominently displayed to the world. For the folks here in this forum, that might sound like a cool chance to improve. To the average person, it's just more negaitve feedabck (and this time....without a paycheck. ).

You might have better luck finding the competive types and convincing them to fly models, rather than trying to instill the competitve spirit into the average modeler.

danamania

And so we will do better for RC aviation and pattern if we focus on helping people fly precision aerobatics better rather than recruiting contestants?

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

There's a lot of truth to what sps3172 says. Our club has tried for years to increase participation in fun-type competitive events by simplifying them time and again to the point where pretty much anyone who can take off and land can win, but it's always the same few who enter. We've tried to be as friendly and helpful as possible but it seems there are only a small number who will actually step up and try to do a specified, measured task.
I think the first step to increasing participation in pattern is to narrow our search...start with the guys who actually do fun flies or old timer contests and try to 'turn' them.

danamania

LOL at the largest of clubs that I fly at some of the avid Fun Fly guys are former pattern and IMAC and they ain't coming back! I am more interested in those few new to the sport who prefer lines to hanging on the prop. We are not going to attract the kids who gravitate towards 3D right out of training because pattern is just not that exciting. The kindred spirits who like big figures are drawn to EDF jets and IMAC. With their Basic sequence (10 figures), IMAC is better positioned to garner newcomers to precision aerobatics than pattern, IMO. We just don't have an offering for those so inclined. The old time pattern pilots might be interested in a simpler, non-turnaround contest which is club rather than contestant judged, but that is so Retro LOL.

JoeSpitfire

My Feedback: (18)

Man, you just gave me a whole new perspective on the issue.

Joe

bjr_93tz

@ sps3172,

You raise some good points. It also raises the question, for just whose benefit is it to recruit more competitors? Nearly every club member's seen me fly and had a look at my plane if they're interested enough, I'm not sure I'd be doing them a favour trying to convince them to blow 1/3rd the cost of a new YS engine to travel to a comp for a weekend just so there's one more name on the competitors entry list.

I'm not so sure I agree 100% with people disliking being "beaten", but the discipline aspect of any competitive endevour does take away from the recreational aspect.

I accept that some still receive genuine enjoyment from just getting a plane into the air and getting it back down in one piece, a not so simple task sometimes given the state of some of the planes I've seen people try to fly :-) I almost eny them for that while I'm cursing a trim issue that only rears it's head during one part of one maneuver that I can't mix/trim out.

stuntflyr

I think SPS has it nailed.
I am competition oriented. I saw Bill Sheets F3A ship at the club field, I asked if that was the new style Pattern ship, he asked if I was the guy with the Kaos, he said I could fly it at a contest, and a few months later I was a Pattern pilot.
My kids don't like competition, they like the models, the socialization. They all have won some event, flown a bunch of them, but they don't stick with it. Different desires.
Chris...

rene69

What we try at my club and seems to have good response, is a Clinic and Contest.
This event is schedule for juts Saturday and it's limited to Sportsman and Intermediate pilots. In the morning (because of the field orientation) we conduct a Clinic with a couple of recognized pattern pilots, who volunteer to teach, clarify and show different aspects of precision flying.
We have an open forum time for questions and answers.
Have lunch and in the afternoon we fly a 2-3- round contest.
The seasoned pilots help and encourage the contestants and everyone have been enjoying the experience.
We sanction the event, give trophies to 3rd. place and the club treasury made 20.00.
Some people who attended the Clinic only, the first year, this year flew.
We fly the pattern as called in the AMA book.
Try it, you may like it and if you want contact me for some more info and printouts that we hand to the attendees.

Good luck,
Rene Grebe
Cedar Park, Texas
District 6

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

A sort of roundabout answer to bjr 93tz's question about who benefits from more participants...
More participants mean it will be easier to stage a successful local contest. This year, other than the contest sponsored by my own club, the closest contest I'll go to is a 4 1/2 hour drive, with two night hotel stays at all of them. That's expensive. If every club within an hour of me had a few pattern pilots there could be several contests close enough to drive home between days.
More participants, more contests, less expense, more participants...

Now, I'm not naive enough to think that every club will have active pattern flyers but there certainly could be more.

rcflyer4fun

I talked to a couple of guys at the club about why they don't try flying pattern. They are interested but the thing they said was a 2 day contest was to much of a time commitment to hit a contest for them. With that being said why not fly all 6 sportsman rounds in one day and make the sportman class a one day event.