JAS

My Feedback: (2)

While reading through some of the Bakersfield contest thread, it seems that there a many ideas for a 'club' class. There have been other discussions in various threads as well, so how about just making a thread about this?

The shortened Sportsman class seems that have gone over well at Chip's contest so why not use that as a starting point.

How about:

Make a Club class
Having a basically non-turnaround pattern of 5-6 maneuvers, with maybe 1 turnaround sequence like the old days... straight flight/stall turn/straight flight back
No entry fee
Any plane 80" and under
The pilots won't be called to judge
This will also give our current Sportsman pilots a place to get their feet wet in judging

Awards: a certificate is printed (in the SE it would add 3 more to the trophy pool, but if other contests have trophies, the $3 plus printing wouldn't add much cost) however you want (pilot picture with plane and place).

While it might make a little more work for the CD, I don't think the hopes of increasing participation in pattern would deter CD's from wanting to add this and I'd also be willing to bet that other pilots would help the CD's manage the extra class/pilots.

I'm sure there are other ideas people have, so lets hear them.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

I like it

Jetdesign

My Feedback: (8)

I like it too. I am joining a new club, they said they do a 'fun' IMAC contest, one day, just for the challenge and laughs. I think this is a great way to get people exposed. I do NOT think there is any reason to change Sportsman and probably not intermediate.

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

They have a club class pattern in Milwaukee every year. At first it was pretty successful and a number of club members attempted it but the interest has diminished in the last few years. It did however produce a few fairly regular participants. Mike

n233w

I'm new at this and I respect the OP's and others input, and take what I say with grains of salt since I haven't been around long...but, I don't like the idea of a shorter or easier intro class.

I started flying Sportsman last year. Personally, if an intro class would have been available a couple of years ago, it may have been a turn-off to me. I was motivated such that anything less than 401 I probably would have considered too easy.

To add another lower class splits the sportsman pool. It's hard enough to have guys to fly against half the time as it is. Also, I think the way it's set up now, is that if you're going to do it, you have got to commit. That is because we rely on participant judging. Adding a lower class would increase the workload on the judges.

Look, making an RC plan fly in a straight line is plain hard. I think if people accept that basic challenge and are hungry for more you may have a pattern participant. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.

Bill P, D7

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

Bill, I might have agreed with you until a few weeks ago when I started coaching a couple of relatively new flyers in the Sportsman pattern. I'd forgotten just how much workload there is if you haven't done it before.
Now I'm of the opinion that the first segment of the Sportsman sequence is almost enough for a club class. Maybe straight flight out, half reverse cuban, straight flight back, then a loop, a roll and a 45 degree downline all on center with free turnarounds between.

JAS

My Feedback: (2)

Bill, your input is what we're looking for. Your last line is very true too: "Look, making an RC plane fly in a straight line is plain hard. I think if people accept that basic challenge and are hungry for more you may have a pattern participant. Otherwise, I'm not so sure.". We need the pilots either just starting pattern or even just thinking about trying pattern to voice their opinions and ideas. For an F3A pilot (me) to make an assumption about how to bring in more pilots that are on the fence about trying pattern is more speculation than fact (only cause I wasn't thinking to ask these questions at pattern contests earlier this year, but have a few club pilots I'm going to run this by this weekend). See I would assume that the current crop of Sportsman pilots would remain there, unless a pilot is really struggling with Sportsman and just has to move down to get more of a feel of flying with precision. This Club class would also only be offered if the CD of a contest wants to offer it. It would be more of an Unofficial event. I know at our club there were times when I heard of 4 or 5 pilots that would be willing to give pattern a shot but were afraid that their sport planes didn't have enough power or they were scared of the box. Yet I watch them fly and they don't even come close to the end poles and have more than enough power to make decent size maneuvers.

When you flew in your first contest, were you intimidated that you had to fly in front of judges, other pilots planes in your class or nothing at all? What's the mind-set of a new pattern pilot?

I was 7 when I entered my first contest, came in dead last, and most times the judges couldn't see my landings cause they were a quarter mile away (benefits of flying in Jamesburg, NJ at their county athletic park with 8 full-size soccer fields). I don't remember if my TF Headmaster trainer had enough power (Fox .40) to do everything properly, but I guess I did most things somewhat right cause I didn't have all 0's when I got my score sheets. I don't know what would have happened if I had to fly turnaround though.

While I'm not sure that a non-turnaround sequence is really going to bring more pilots to pattern (there are many other factors why pilots won't try competition), maybe this would help sway a few still on the fence. And if the Club class is too easy, nothing would be holding them back from jumping right into Sportsman.

Phxsparky

My Feedback: (12)

I was just curious to know if anyone might have a RCATS Glow Driver or one that is similar with the delay start that they would sell? I am just getting into pattern and purchased a pattern plane with a YS140DZ and it is my understanding you don't want to heat the plug till after it is turning over with the starter. Any help is much appriciated.

Thanks in advance!!

Rob

Bill Clark

If part of the objective (if not all) is to increase the popularity of pattern I have some thoughts. although not really geared towards the absollute beginer It is what I might find interesting. I started flying fixed wing about 4 years ago focusing completly on 3d type flying (dont stone me) after about 4 years of heli. All you have to do is frequent one of the 3d forums and see the popularity is exploding for that type of flying. After tons and tons of flights and learning most all the fancy moves I began to realize that an important part was missing and that was the precision control which also allows the flow of one manuever to the next. I think many pilots like myself realize what I have and many could be persuaded to. These types of pilots are a huge resource of potential pattern flyers. Problem is that the concensous is pattern lacks the excitement so there needs to be a way to introduce that excitement while at the same time blending the precision type manuevers in and generating interest for them. So I would say introduce a "freestyle" segment into the "club" routine. this way guys will be able to showcase some of the things they can do well and provide some motivation for the things they cant (pattern). I am struggling through the intermediate sequence and just trying to increase the accuracy of basic manuevers but I love to cut up and do rolling loops, snaps and alternating rolling circles and have a real tough time sticking to the sequence (discipline). for me, stick movements- no problem, accuracy and timing-problem. I'll bet this holds true for many of the 3d guys. I'm confident once I start to get a handle on the precision that I will excell quickly and am beggining to understand the fulfillment of pattern. To increase the popularity of pattern one just needs to make the stick bangers realize this too. stop being pissed off at the stick bangers and invite them over

n233w

JAS, - Glad to be of help. Flying in front of judges was not a big deal for me as I'm used to be on stage / have competed lots in many different sports as a kid. I can see how it would take some getting used to for lots of people, though. I'm not sure the difficulty of the sequence is the determining factor there, however.

The biggest help for me was that a generous FAI pilot offered to be my caller on my first round of my first contest which was very reassuring and made my day. Actually, the support for others, offered freely, is a huge turn-on about the pattern scene and is the core of why anyone might participate as opposed to how easy the sequence is, IMO.

Something I would add is that as a hypothetical individual poking around and looking at investing time and $ in a new sport, browsing the internet and forums and checking out what this pattern thing is all about - one thing I would not like to see is a lot of quibbling (and acrimony) on the forums about what the rules are (weight/sequences, etc). As a matter of fact, as a 2nd year guy it still kind of ticks me off, though I understand the need for discussion.

This hypothetical newbie would want to know that the rules are consistent, solid and well accepted, and are likely to be stable for the foreseeable future. Otherwise, he might sit out a few seasons and see where the dust settles belfore spending time and $ to get up to speed.

Bill P, D7

danamania

Interesting thread.  I would like to see Pattern become a bit more accessible to those new to precision aerobatics.  While I have aired some ideas on other threads, I would like to offer just one observation about the current Sportsman sequence after reflecting on my first contest experiences last year:

Silent-AV8R

It is sort of funny how just about every competition area I am involved with goes through this exercise every now and then. IMAC, soaring, you name it. The question always comes up about how do we attract new pilots. The plain fact is that only about 6% or so of AMA members ever enter any kind of sanctioned event in any given year, and that includes club fun flies!!

The take away from that for me is that the vast majority of guys simply have no interest in competition. Look at IMAA and IMAC. IMAA has 6 to 8 times the number of members that IMAC has. Compare the attendance at IRCHA to the helicopter NATS just a couple of weeks before at the same venue. 1,000+ heli pilots at IRCHA and maybe 30 or so at the NATS.

I think one of the best ways to get new interest is to do one day clinics. Give people a chance to see the sport and ask questions and gain information in a positive and non-threatening environment. Sadly most areas of competition look to the outsider like they need to spend big bucks on airframes and equipment and then run the chance of being embarrassed at a contest or labeled as the "newbie".

Making changes to the core of the event is not the way in my mind to attract new blood. Once the guy is hooked he wants to know that he is a full part of the event. Having sort of a "bunny slope" class is not going to be very attractive to too many people in my experience.

As a community we need to think about doing more outreach to the general group of pilots to get them exposed to what we do and to make them feel comfortable and welcome.

n233w

Interesting, Dana, never thought about that as I didn't have many scares at the end of the box, but I can see how that would be chilling.

bp

danamania

+1 on One day clinics!  It would be interesting if a package could be put together to make it easy for clubs to offer these.  Just another idea.

Strat2003

My Feedback: (1)

I don't believe it's required to physically leave the box in the Sportsman pattern, it's just that nothing is judged after the pilot calls 'Exit the box'. The unjudged turnaround/repositioning maneuvers can take place anywhere and judging doesn't resume til 'Enter the box' is called.
No need to fly out to the next county.

danamania

That's not my point. If flying the baseline at a correct distance to fit the scored manuvers into the box laterally, one is actually flying quite far out for the newcomer. Assuming the new Sportsman competitor is making reasonable sized manuvers, and placing them correctly in the box, that actually puts the turnarounds quite far out. All well and good if the turnaround is completed without error, however, it will be quite far out for a calm correction from an unusual attitude should the turnaround manuver go astray. None of this is a factor if the new Sportsman competitor is flying too close to the deadline, but then the sequence does not fit into the box; also not an issue if the manuvers are flown too small by comparison to what we like to see from pattern pilots. Try having a go at the last 3rd of the current Sportsman sequence. See if you can fly nice sized manuvers at the correct distance from the deadline and fit all of them in without leaving the box (of course you can): It is a tight fit if flown honestly, and if flown at distance enough to stay within the box, you will see that the out-of-box turnarounds are quite far out there really. No issue for the experienced pilot, but potentially anxiety provoking for the new competitor. I hope I am stating the case clearly as I am flying this sequence a dozen or two times every weekend now. Cheers!

viva_peru

Hello,

My club just had a 2-day IMAC clinic a few weeks ago. About 12 pilots participated and we actually had a couple that came from out of town. The first day covered what IMAC is and isn't in addition to having an abreviated judging seminar. The idea behind the seminar was to help people learn how to read Aresti as well as giving them a few pointers about what judges are typically looking for. The afternoon was spent "judging" a few flights from experienced pilots. The demos were also intended to help people visualize the sequences.

The following day, we had a mini-contest as well as a general trimming session for anyone one who needed help with their plane. In the end, I think it worked out quite well, although personally I think it would have been better to have a one day event rather than a two day event. I think that for most pilots, the most useful aspect of the event was to get a chance to fly in-front of the judges and the tips they received after their flights. In addition, some took advantage of the opportunity to have an experienced pilot help them trim their plane.

I am pretty sure that something similar could be done for pattern. Right now, in our club, we have 4 or 5 people who are interesting in competing, although mostly in IMAC. I am the only pattern flyer at this time, and a newbie at that.

Teo

MajorTomski

Interesting thread. I flew beginner pattern in the 98-2000 timeframe.

What is missing in pattern is a true beginners fly-what-you-brung true entry level. It's not the sequence that was the beginners problem, it was this slow evolution that if I didn't go spend $2K on a "propper" pattern plane then there wasn't really any reason to bother to even show up.

I flew a CG Tiger 60 and placed first or second in novice at my first three contests. Beating guys that had "better" planes but were far worse flyers.

Back to the OP; No a novice CANNOT judge a pattern contest without some form of classroom training as to what is right and what is wrong. Without that you are dealing with feelings not judging.

I quit flying pattern, or at least going to contests when the eletist equipment snobbery took over for who can fly better, ignoring the equipment he's flying.

I will forever be greatful to Bob Pastorelli for teaching me the fundimental basics of pattern flying and how to judge.

Tom Solinski
AMA 8026

MTK

A few years ago, Dave Guerrin asked a few long time pattern people to participate in something similar to what Teo stated above. Dean Pappas, Dave Lockhart and I drove down to Green Sea, SC (?...I think that's the town). Several other long timers (Rusty Dose who was co-CD, Don Szcuzr, Arch Stafford, a few others) also were there. We assisted with Judge training, model set-up, discussions etc. Then there was a contest after that.

It was a well attended, well organized effort, aimed mostly at people new to Pattern, although a bunch of more experienced but lower level folks showed up for the contest and education. Access to expert pilots like Dave, Archie, Don and Dean was appreciated by all less experioenced. Everyone went home feeling something important just took place. Several months later, the event was repeated in Rusty's area. I didn't attend that event tho and neither did Dean.

Unfortunately, this type of effort, as educational as it was, sorta died on the vine. Why? First and foremost, in my opinion, is that any such effort requires a long term Champion (and funding wouldn't hurt) that will see it through for years. Dave and Rusty were Champions of the effort and did a fine job....but this kind of effort couldn't be sustained longer term; their out of pocket cost (both in terms of funds and effort) had to be pretty significant.

Second, an area that may need to be thought through by NSRCA council with some membership input is to establish set of general guidelines that will assist a new organizer in putting on such an effort. In my view, an entry class makes sense but it doesn't need to be administered by the AMA and be bound by Contest Board regulation. But it should follow NSRCA standards and be good for any future pattern involvement. The AMA's involvement only needs to be safety and sanction deep.

Third, getting clubs to manage and fund such events to NSRCA guidelines is no small task. Chances are great that it will fall on the shoulders of a single, at most two, Champions. Anyone willing to do such a thing needs to know that up front and that should be in the guideline also. It would be great if the same people were to Champion the effort in a recurring, hopefully annual manner, but with some up front effort on NSRCA's part, it wouldn't be a must.............

llindsey1965

My Feedback: (-1)

iremember when i first started  flying pattern in the mid 80s  i started at novice which had 10 manuvers each rated from 0 to 10  and flew in that class till my first win  then moved up to sportsman which also had 10 manuvers each scored from 0 to 10  flew that class till 4 wins then moved up  to intermediate class and so on   would be nice if they brought back the novice   would create more interest in the sport  .  flying pattern made me a lot better pilot  ,  when you fly in front of 3 judges you learn to be very smooth and precise

llindsey1965

My Feedback: (-1)

1 take off
2 straight flight out
3 procedure turn
4 straight flight back
5 stall turn
6 inside loop
7 roll
8 split s
9 cuban 8
10 landing

those are not easy manuvers for your first contest , you have to be at same height at entrance and exit , no squirrell take offs , and no bounce landings , anyway this would be a good entrance level for new guys it was for me

danamania

To Matt's 2nd & 3rd points above, if an NSRCA committee were to form to put a resource together for local clubs to use for these training day events, I would volunteer to work on that.  One of the clubs I belong to has a few former pattern competitors and one of those just came into office; if there were a ready to implement paper/pdf "how to" resource for the day, it would be something that I could bring to him for that club's consideration as an AMA sanctioned event.  Need not be an NSRCA event, but this is one of  two SIGs with the know-how in many respects (IMAC already has their Basic sequence upon which to build Basic-only days/contests to bring in newcomers).  FWIW, I have suggested something like this to my club before, but without something tangible in-hand for consideration, the idea was difficult to advance due to the work required to organize. What is needed, IMO, is something that any AMA CD can run with to implement with local volunteers. Of course, then an experienced Pattern pilot or two can be invited, but the event itself remains a local activity. So count me in if there is something we can do from the NSRCA vantage point, I will put my time towards that. Any volunteers LOL? Cheers!

4u2nv-RCU

My Feedback: (28)

I dont think the Sportsman class is all that challenging to deter participation. Plane set up and availablity are a couple of reasons people shy away from the "pattern event". A class on plane set up would be a great way to expose the entire club to precision flying and might identify those that might want to go further. Do any of you guys have a plane laying around that would be better served in someone else"s hangar? Getting that plane into the right hands can be a great way of bringing someone into the pattern community. Seeing a kid(no matter the age) that has some skills or the desire and making him a good deal or letting him fly one of your older planes in a competition one weekend might help plant that seed.

rgburrill

12 years ago when I was flying several times a month I considered pattern but did not have a pattern plane, nor the money to get one.  Nor did I have a flexible enough schedule to be able to plan for regular events.  I would have jumped at the chance to be in this "club" class, however.  And doing well at something like that promotes moving up into Sportsman and above.  In fact I might have found a way to stay active after I bought my pattern plane instead of having it sit on the shelf for years.

JeffH

My Feedback: (43)

I would limit the planes to a weight limit vs. a wing span. If a beginner has a tiger 60, Kougar, or even a DB ARF and sees he has to compete against a full on 80" Extra 300, he will be less than thrilled to compete against a "competition plane". Use the same 11 pound limit that pattern currently uses, or maybe even 12, and leave it at that. That fits many many sport planes that are currently flying at any given field. For the most part, the intimidation factor needs to be lowered to get average sunday flyers involved.
One reason saturday night drag racing works so well is that they have they a street class that guys run the family car, truck, etc without having to run up against a 10 second camaro in their stock VW golf. Guys that already have the fast cars will not run that class due to egos, and that would work the same way here. If somebody already a "real pattern plane" they will fly sportsman since they have the plane.