F.Imbriaco

My Feedback: (56)

Can it be done ?

HOW TO SPECIFICS NEEDED

The 2016-17 ADVANCED Sequence has a on center 3 HORIZONTAL ROLL maneuver. I, like others, had hoped to never see it again . I recall it was years ago and also present in an Intermediate sequence .

My hands , eyes and timing ain't what they used to be, so is there a method of assigning a switch( or button as I have on my Airtronics SD-10G) to perform 3 reasonably paced, axial rolls that are programmed through conditions, flight modes, whatever?
I realize that it would require a complex mix that would involve aileron and precise elevator inputs( and maybe even throttle, although not really necessary) to keep them on a string. Sounds impossible, but maybe someone has done it.

If nothing else ,the rolls could be three lightning fast in a row with just aileron, but that would be distasteful, IMO.

Thanks

jetmech43

My Feedback: (9)

I don't think its legal for a timed roll button, I might be wrong though

fly dat

try getting an easy button like on the tv commercials!!

danamania

Hi Frank, how are you? Could you say a little more about why you would not want to keep the 3 Horizontal Rolls in the 2016-17 Advanced Proposal? Also, if you have any other feedback or flight reports on the proposal, Anthony Romano and I would be most interested in receiving that from you and any other D1 members. The proposals are open to member comment through the fall when the NSRCA BoD will vote on them. We have time to collect feedback meanwhile. Overall, I hear that many like the new 403 so would be interesting to hear from more members as the flying season rolls on. Thanks in advance!

viva_peru

Nice pun at the end. For me personally, consecutive rolls have always been tough. Some days, my timing is just right and I can make two decent rolls on a row. Three will defintely be a challange. I suspect others feel the same way, but then again, it is all about learning. I am trying to move from Intermediate into Advanced this year and it has been a learning process. At first, it felt like a pretty big step. I like the challenge and hopefully, someday, it will all click and fall in place.

Teo

drac1

My Feedback: (4)

What you are asking is not allowed in pattern.

Stuart Chale

Timed inputs are not allowed. No issue however if you wanted to put a certain amount of aileron on a button or momentary switch so you could concentrate on the elevator input. Not too much difference then flipping a Dual rate switch and pinning the stick for your roll rate and adding elevator as needed. (personally I would not recommend using a button or momentary switch though.)

Back in AMA "Ballistic" pattern three rolls were a common maneuver and most of us just used elevator, no rudder through that maneuver. Now that the planes fly slower the better pilots are probably feeding in a bit of rudder on the knife edges.

If you find them difficult then I would recommend a slightly quicker roll rate higher throttle and learning to time the elevator inputs to hold your altitude and hopefully your line. Takes practice but so do all of our maneuvers. Spend a couple of hours on a flight sim. Until you can easily do three or four rolls in a row.

Now the sequence also has a slow and four point roll. How do you do on those? If you can fly those well then you have what is needed to fly 3 rolls at a slower rate

Stuart

F.Imbriaco

My Feedback: (56)

Stuart:
Thanks for your reply.
Dana:
Three rolls were fine years ago back in the Intermediate schedule when the turnarounds were simple in nature. Now, we have space eating end box maneuvers that cause the need for an awful lot of territory. When I recently mentioned( see 2016-17 sequences thread) that some of the maneuvers were pushing the height a bit, some guys made comments . Our flying sites all differ . Mine requires judicious use of airspace as it is at a fairly active airport with advertising blimps, hot air balloons, gliders and civilian air traffic consisting of fixed wing and many helicopters. With all that is going on , why risk it ? We could easily lose our field tomorrow.
I'm a bit rusty, but can handle the 3 rolls just fine. IMO, they are not building blocks since Advanced pilots should already know how to do decent point and slow rolls.

That is all I will say as I'm done with the topic.

danamania

Was at the LV airfield yesterday after work for a few quick practice flights. The one Advanced flyer was there and we got to talking about the 3 rolls, their place in pre-turnaround pattern history, the new proposal; and it didn't take him long to start calculating how much real estate they would consume transiting the box! He wanted to verify his calculations (LOL) so I called the half loop on the entry side and the half square loop with 2/4 up on the exit side: He flew the 3 maneuvers a few times with different roll rates. We had headwind down the runway up to 10 (a tailwind for the 3 rolls) so conditions were ideal to see what they looked like. Well, he was able to keep it all in the box with all except the slowest roll rate at about 150m out. The half loop entry gave him a chance to build some airspeed into the 3 rolls and the half square exit could be done at the very end of the box. Was really nice to see this demonstrated for me as I am thinking of moving up to Advanced sometime next year. After the flight, I asked him if he ever used rudder on these, or just elevator: He just pumped the elevator and the 3 rolls looked just fine. Of course, timing is everything LOL! I think it can be done, and it will definitely be a challenge stepping up from the 2 horizontal rolls we have in Intermediate. That said, these 3 maneuvers together do require meticulous planning and piloting to keep them in the box on baselines of 175m or less; one could certainly fly them deeper in the box for more lateral "elbow room" and risk the point deduction for flying too far out, perhaps necessary on windy days when a lot of correction and drift are in play. Thoughts?

MTK

Thirty fine years ago or so, in the then Sportsman class, we sportsmen and women spent more flights and hours practicing the 3 Hor Rolls than any other maneuver we had. Untold gallons of fuel were consumed, 16 ozs at a time. There wasn't and still isn't a magic pill that makes it all go away. Hell, what fun would it be if everyone did 3 perfect rolls every time just be punching a button.

My advice, practice!! RVP, the MA pattern columnist back then, preached so many times setting up inputs for the 3 rolls for about 3-4 sec duration. His advice still holds in today's schedules; 3 sec for 3 rolls still allows enough time for the TAs. At current speeds, they should consume about 300 feet.

EDIT: Should point out that the 60 degree x 60 degree stage results in a stage that's 400 meters wide at 150 out. That's almost 660 feet at distance, either side of center. The current speed I'm referring to is about 65 mph for the well managed electric or around 100 fps and only around 70 for my poorly managed gassie.

Stuart Chale

If FAI can do 4 rolls reversed after a split S type maneuver then 3 rolls can easily be fit into the pattern. As Matt said it takes practice to make them look right. If they feel rushed then you need to adjust your speed, use of the box ends, size of the split S etc. Many flyers in the lower classes and even in the higher classes sometimes don't make things big enough or fly to fast so that everything is rushed together. This is just another learning opportunity to slow things down and not feel so rushed during the pattern.

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

Agree with the guys above. Years ago we did maneuvers like this with planes that were not up to what we have today. Even 20 years ago, planes were noticeably faster, but we still managed to do this stuff, even with turnarouns. Go back and look at Novice and Sportsman from 1996. No reason those patterns ever need to change. If you are bored in those classes, move up. We keep dumbing down the lower classes, even as equipment is getting better daily. 3 rolls can be done with just aileron and elevator. There is no reason to use rudder on this maneuver. I would like to see other maneuvers come back, such as the outside loop that includes the half roll to inverted and then back out again, and even straight inverted flight.

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