It better be a very good job at 20K a pop! Of course in the UK you have a 1.9 advantage with your currency over the US so $10K pounds in the UK would do nicely for you. Shoot, our taxi driver in London owned a $289K house.

You may be able to do all the flip flop stuff with the prop job, but let me tell you watching the turbines and the prop jobs fly (one after the other) the prop jobs looked like flying pigs compared to the turbines.

At any rate, it was a very worth while drive to see them fly!

Well, first on my list is a TOC Yak, then maybe a turbine. Actually Id probably prefer a turbo Raven now I think about it. No doubt mortgages, council tax and car repayments will all get in the way though [:@]

Angus, 2yrs away from being a qualified Pharmacist

Love Europe but your UK economy is so much better than ours I don’t think I’ll be able to afford Brown’s Hotel like we did two years ago. The Euro was about the same as the dollar then so we really enjoyed France too. The EuroStar was pretty awesome, the fastest I’ve ever been on wheels! I guess its full speed in England now as well. Beautiful county outside of London. I was thinking about all the great flying sites as we were speeding along.

I've thought about turbines too....a lot. The newest generation of 12 pound thrust engines are pretty cheap and they don't have much spool up lag anymore. I read where a lot of them are going on ducted fan models. Maybe it is getting closer to being affordable on normal airframes.

Why not change the AMA pattern so we use turbines? Or do the guys at the FAI in France control what you all fly.

How can you sit there honestly and say that? I know you have been around R/C for a long time, but you do realize that a jet has a helluva lot more wingloading than a modern day 2M pattern plane, not to mention most of your garden variety jets can't do what a pattern plane can do. Aerobatics aren't about screaming across the box at 200 mph. One, that defeats the purpose of having a box, and two, how fun is it to see something go fast, in circles for that matter?

I don't see how the zenith of technology can be at least 10-20 years old. I'm scared to see what comes next if that is the case.

Yes there are some very nice places. Im up in Scotland, basically the same but with hills, more rain and kilts

Angus

You forgot the wind Gus!

Malcolm

Team Tesla - My fuel isn't pink.

Yeah, I remember the horizontal rain.
Magne

And don't forget the sheep!

I often get asked which is the best plane. Surprisingly it is very often not just a question about pattern planes. It can be scale, aerobatic scale, 3-D, you name it. After 30 years of answering that question it really boils down to "The one that YOU like".

I fly mode-1 but I carry a mode-2 TX because once in a while I put one of my pattern planes in the hands of an enthusiastic flyer. (Mode-2 being the predominant mode at most clubs in the USA). the result is always the same. The secret then gets out of the bag!

Pattern planes are much easier to fly!

The design limits for pattern planes are size, sound and weight (There is no "power" limit as was stated in another note). This means that pilots are free to modify their planes to achieve desired flying traits. The current widebody trend has created flying-fuselages that make the transitions during the roll a piece of cake.

Eric.

Ryan, I’m not trying to start a big flap, just trying to express how impressive the turbines were to me compared to the prop aircraft. In my first post I said that I’ve never had a pattern aircraft that didn’t fly well. But, the turbines were flying beautiful, smooth and graceful complex maneuvers and they looked awesome. I didn’t expect everyone would agree, that’s just how it looked to me. I’ve always liked pattern aircraft and found the way that turbines were flying reminded me of how pattern looked when it was most popular in the late 80s and early 90s. The turbine segment of our hobby is growing pretty fast and I wish I pattern flying could have the same.

Speaking of all this, when are they gonna come out with a nice turboprop engine we can use for aerobatic planes?
Whoever "they" are....

-Ron

They are available now and are flying including setups for helicopters.

I'm not disputing the fact with you that turbines are magnificent flying machines one bit. The airplanes themselves are impressive, what with all the complex plumbing and all. And the flight performance is really amazing. To see one fly sure is neat, and I have seen them fly on many occasions, as my cousin owns one, and some friends of mine own them. So yes, I agree with you there. I also agree with you about how some of the older style pattern planes are awesome themselves. Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to say that you don't have a valid opinion because you prefer pre-turnaround style. I would like to get one of those airplanes and maybe do some SPA contests with it.

The only thing that I am disagreeing with you regarding is, at least in my interpretation of what you are saying, pattern is worse now with the new airplanes and the newer, more complex schedules. Yes, most people won't pop for a full 2M plane today because of the price tag associated with them. Most people want an ARF, but want a scratch-built wood airplane price. I can see why people don't fly pattern nearly as much as they used to. I think it would be awesome to see people in regular clubs to fly pattern, which is what you said happened in your club in the early 90's. It would be great to see pattern come from being almost the black sheep of the hobby to the forefront again. And I actually think that the 3D revolution might help it. Some 3D flyers are beginning to recognize that their skills aren't quite up to par as they think they are and are being told more and more that pattern is the way to go. Now that their heads are a few sizes smaller, they are beginning to listen and embrace the "lameness factor" of pattern.

Anyway, my intent was not to start a pissing contest into the wind, which I hope you didn't think was going on. I respect your opinion and I imagine you do too. I don't want to see you get mad at me over something trivial, like me having a big mouth. You certainly are an asset to the forum with your experience, your building skills, and flying stories.




And as a side note, there are turboprops that are in use in larger models. I saw a video of a GS Turbo Raven with one and that thing screamed. Pretty impressive. I think that it would be neat for a turbine to come out for 2M planes, certainly the constant speed prop would help the airplane in downlines, and there wouldn't be any need for extra power on uplines. Damn, that would be really cool now that I think about it. There is a guy on here that's building a 35% Carden Extra with a turbine. Looked like an impressive project.

Ryan-
Do you have any more info on this video? I'll bet some of us would like to take a look at it.
-Ron

This is really an interesting subject because the outcome impacts the future of pattern acrobatics and I should be quiet, but just one more thought. From what I see there is something that I will call the “fun factor�. The higher the “fun factor� the more money people are willing to spend on their RC aircraft. Think about the relative cost of the high speed pattern ships of the late 80s with expensive pump and piped engines (that didn’t last very long at the high RPMs so you need a bunch of them), retracts, fiberglass kits and the cost of the old pattern ships of the 70s. It was a very big jump in cost but everyone wanted one, cost didn’t matter and they were having a blast flying pattern. That type of flying seemed to have very wide appeal and attracted a lot of flyers.

The turbine flyers have no problem spending big dollars to just get a little old turbine trainer. I expect it is the high “fun factor� at work again.

The cost of 2M ships are more than the 80s and 90s rocket ships but when you consider the total cost it shouldn’t be the factor that would cause the AMA pattern community to shrink. If you can agree on the cost and “fun factor� concept, is it possible that AMA pattern does not have the wide appeal that it once had because the “fun factor’ is being impacted by something? Or possibly a perceived low “fun factor� by potential new flyers?

Don't forget that the 'options' available for us to spend our hobby dollars on have vastly increased since the late '70s. Helicopters were just barely beyond the 'machinist to build it' stage and jets and giant scale were in their infancy at best. Complex issue, but I definitely agree with your cost/funfactor analysis
-Will B.

Turbo prop link http://www.dreamworksrc.com/catalog/...roducts_id=555

heh heh, that's a good one. I agree with your sentiments.

I don't see why you couldn't fly pattern with the right plane and a small turbine. They don't have to fly fast. I followed a link from RCU to a video of a Cirrus with something like a 27' wingspan and a turbine strapped on top. It wasn't the brightest idea, but it flew well enough at slow speeds. Lots of wing flex! The guy decided to do a loop with the obvious outcome....but it was a Cirrus after all and not a jet.

Ron, I tried to find the link on the internet, but that ended up fruitless. I thought that maybe I had downloaded it to my hard drive, but I wasn't that smart. It was a Wren turboprop on a composite Turbo Raven. The footage was shot in Germany at an airshow. Maybe someone else that sees this knows what I am talking about and provide the link.



You're right, the fun factor has been impacted by something. Would you say that elitism among the pattern community started causing a decline in the membership, and an increase in price tags? If so, this has held true for a good while now. Your average pilot probably has many mis conceptions about what pattern is. They see all the guys in F3A that are flying high dollar Euro designs, with either very expensive YS's (normally with a few backups), or almost prohibitively expensive electric setups. With Futaba now out with the 14MZ there's another 2 grand towards the setup. What they don't see however are some of the guys in the lower classes. Sure, there are guys down in the ranks that fly more top-dollar planes, but I've seen quite a few that had some age on either the airplane itself or the design. And since pattern is not only governed (in the states anyway) by the AMA, but also by the FAI. So there are alot of rules involved, along with alot of money getting shelled out. People take those numbers and see that they can get a pretty good sized 3D plane, where it's really anything goes. Now with the advent of foamys, people can do the same for even less. $400 compared to $4000, there's a significant difference for the price of fun there.

Also from what I've read, you are active in the SPA, aren't you? How is the membership among them, since that is a helluva lot cheaper version of pattern? Is it growing, staying steady, or what? I would think that they would have a healthy following, especially among the people who used to fly pattern and quit. They can buy some of the same planes and better equipment to put in them for cheaper than it would have cost "back in the day". With the way the CPI works, and the general economic growth within the US, It's probably cheaper to fly SPA type pattern now than it was back when it WAS pattern. How has the promotion of the SPA worked out? I can see your point very clearly about how that type of pattern is attractive. People love speed. Those planes flew faster, were sleeker, and are less costly. They are more easily transportable to boot. If people knew about the SPA, wouldn't you say that it could become as popular as it was back in its heyday?

But like I said earlier, pick up a copy of 3D flyer, all of the "big names" are leaking out about how important some form of disciplined flying is to their flying skills. This might only increase IMAC's membership, since GS is what 3D flyers fly. Even though Artistic Aerobatics are officially sanctioned by the FAI, there aren't any contests. And people would complain they needed two planes to be competitive or to even enjoy both.

One last thing 8178, I am seeing your viewpoint more and more, as I think about it and write about it. I can see why you say that was the zenith of pattern competition and I am actually beginning to think that way myself. It has everything that modern day pattern is trying to achieve-low cost and high participation. [X(]



The only thing that would pose a problem (other than plunking down $5500 for an engine) would be the weight limit. Even small turbines are thirsty, so the mass of fuel along with all the plumbing for it would add significant weight, even to the lightest planes around. But think about it- it would be completely self contained, nothing really to bring to the flightline except the fuel and a fire extinguisher. No starter, glow driver, nothing like that. Of course electrics have that beat- all you need is the airplane, transmitter and you. It would definitely have the coolness factor.

Don't think I've ever seen a turbine jet do a snap or spin or any combo of rolls and snap. As for the turbine props you've just make a pattern plane $8000, yes the jets are smooth but not even close to being the same as pattern planes, 2 totally different thing and completely off subject topic.
Steve Maxwell

Following on from what Ryan said, perhaps I can add to this.

Last weekend I flew in my first ever pattern comp. The reason I entered was because I really want to be a top 3D/Freestyle pilot, and have come to realise that I wont be unless I work at practising. The idea is that by siging up for F3A and entering comps, I will have to work at it, so will improve my basic aerobatic flying, which will help with the 3D flying.

There were a number of things that surprised me from my first competition. Not quite sure what this says about either myself, or the state of F3A in the UK:

- There were 13 entrants, spread across four classes (5 standard, 1 senior, 3 master, 4 FAI). I was expecting more.

- Excluding me, all bar two pilots had 2m pattern planes, and the two that didnt had 90 size pattern planes (one was being flown as a back up as the owner's 2m plane was in for repairs). I was not expecting this. I was only really expecting to see 2m planes in masters and FAI, not in standard as well. This was rather off putting as I was there with my MK 3DDancer (Saito 100) and my EF Yak (YS 110), both great flying planes, but designed for 3D/Freestyle, not precision.

- Despite both this being my first comp, and having inappropriate planes, I came fourth in standard, and was competitive compared to the first 3 (final round we all scored around the 200 mark, within 10 marks of each other). I had expected to be last, and by some distance, especailly when I saw I was up against 2m planes.

- Someone mentioned about having fun earlier in the thread, and again at the comp I was told that the important thing was to have fun and enjoy myself. To be honest, I cant say that it was a lot of fun. That's not to say that I hated every minute, because it was good to meet new people, try new things, and it was interesting. But I was there from 8.45 in the morning, to 5.00 in the afternoon, and only had three flights. If that had been a normal flying day, I would have been very disappointed with the day. The only real buzz came from completing the first flight, having got through every manouver.

To someone looking in from the outside, pattern no longer looks fun, at least as fun as some of the other areas that have grown up: turbines, 3D, Giant Scale etc. This is what is driving the decline, even though there are more people than ever in this hobby. People do not see a good reason for spending a fortune on something that looks boring.

So will I be entering any more comps? Yes, I still want to improve my flying. I also would like to see if I can go up a class, which I think I could with a bit of practise. I may even buy myself a proper pattern plane (the Fliton Infinity 90, on electric, looks like a good bet). But I still want to be a top 3D/Freestyle pilot, not a top F3A pilot.

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One problem with the turbine or turbo prop route. . . . they aren't allowed by the rules. . .
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Welcome to the world of F3A my friend Stick at it, I was kind of the same when I started. Im now that into competition that if I didn't do comps I would hang up my tx for sure. Plus ive found that as you get more into it you get a lot more out of it as well and as you've realised, if you want to be a top 3der you gotta be pretty dam precise aswell. Otherwise you're just a stick banger eh.

Angus

ps was it Winchester you went to?

nowt wrong wi stick-banging. hehe

I'll stick in a pennys worth,
I had a 60" sports pattern a few years ago, and through its design and a desire to succeed in pattern, my flying definitely got better. Since it crashed I've had 3d, scale aero and a fast delta, but I'm goin through them like trainers coz their so easy to get on top of relative to the pattern ship. Before I had it, I was with the majority in that if I couldnt have a 2m and ys140(4yrs ago remember) with a futaba 9ZAP, I wasnt interested, but now... my 2nd one's come down from the loft, and once the hangar rash is tidied up it'll be getting built.

I think the fun-factor you refer to is more an X-factor, to impress the crowds(NOT ozzy's mingin mrs [:'(]).