You forgot this one.

I don't want to travel evey weekend to another site, only to get lost and not get there in time to practice.

No point in entering local contests because I don't get enough practice cause I don't want to travel.

Whew!

I have to chime in. I started flying IMAC because there is a strong participation in the Pac Northwest, the basic sequence is easy, the planes look cool, and it's pretty cheap if you don't get too big (I fly 1/4 scale which is about the same as a 2m pattern ship). I would consider regular pattern if more people participated.

I could never understand the boring response. How is perfecting a maneuver boring. Even in free-style, or touch-and-go, or performing a victory roll with a P51, you have to perfect you technique. Boring, to me, is just tearing around the sky burning up fuel. A patten sequence has 8 to 23 maneuvers. How is that boring? I never knew how much more flying I had to learn than when I started IMAC. And that's justs the basic sequence that virtually anyone can fly.

Maybe a person thinks it's boring because they don't know the judging criteria and they don't have an experienced flyer showing them how to improve and what needs to be done to maximize his score. Alignment, timing, shape, form, art, and all that goes into a great routine. And it never comes out the same twice (if it does, you fly a more difficult sequence).

I think it's very exciting.

I thought it was boring when I first saw it, because all I saw were planes taking off, doing the same old things, and landing....And this was repeated over and over and over. However, at the W/C, I got to see the good side of it, and now I am hooked.

Then why does the Aerobatic rule book specifically mention IMAC with their own subsection? I believe that it is divided into non-scale and scale, IMAC is in the scale section.

Mike,
You just reminded me of something. I have a set of plans I drew quite a few years ago from a blown up Silent 90 kit I still have in my closet. The plans are sized just right for a good 1.20 4S. My intention has always been to scratch build it out of wood and foam. I might do a glass belly pan, or may just use a pipe tunnel exposed to the air. Hmmmm, maybe it's time to dig those plans out and build a foam cutter ....

BTW, my plans are bigger than the Silent ST (which was the intention) so it would be better suited for todays patterns than the ST would be.

John

I may actually give pattern a serious try, some day. Just not right now.
As for burning holes in the sky being boring, to me it's not.
I enjoy that... just flying however I want to, not having to work on a manuever 10,000 times,
to get it "just right". OK, so I'm not the best pilot in the world... but I'm having a blast
I'm much more comfy flying a good fun-fly event, with a cheaper plane, not worried
so much about "perfect form" as I am "getting the job done". (or at least trying my best to)

I think people should do whatever makes them happy, be it scale, 1/2A, warbirds,
3D, pattern, most touch-n-goes in 10 minutes, or simply boring holes in the sky.
Who is anyone, to say that one flight mode is better/more fun/more rewarding than another?
To each his/her own.

As for pattern pilots being "stuck up" or not... it's the same as any "in-crowd",
you've got the good guys and the buttheads. My first run-in with "pattern pilots" was some
16 years ago. I couldn't have cared less if I had NEVER met another one, after them.
The two of them were complete buttheads, showing total disdain and contempt for
we "mere mortal" sport pilots, and not so quietly, in some instances.
They also had that "how dare you be in the sky at the same time as me" attitude,
which was another big turnoff. They acted like they were God's gift to flying, and
the rest of the flyers were merely some sort of disease for which there was no cure.
I'm sure they weren't like this to other pattern flyers, so hearing that you guys
have never seen it just doesn't hold much water here, sorry
Thankfully, they didn't fly at our field much, so I didn't have to deal with them often.
They did give me the perception that all pattern flyers were that way, though.
(Which was obviously wrong, but I really took things at face value at age 18)

Aerobob had a good point on the "expense factor" which applies here as well, I think.
"those OUTSIDE the Game can only make decisions (based) on perceptions."
Those perceptions probably don't exist inside pattern circles, so you wouldn't notice.

The only way to tear down the perception of exlusivity is to actively "talk pattern" to
non-pattern flyers... take the time, explain things, dispel myths, etc... don't be "stand-offish".
Above all, don't make others seem inferior or less of a flyer, because they don't take up pattern.
(The same can be said of some of the jet-jocks, though I've met a couple who aren't that way)
It's not for everyone, plain and simple.

I have to admit that I was a bit apprehensive after joining my current club, when I
found that half (or more) actively fly pattern (most SPA, some SPA & AMA).
My fears of being surrounded by arrogant, holier-than-thou snobs were quickly laid to rest,
as these have got to be some of the nicest people I've ever flown with.
Some of them go a bit overboard in trying to get you to fly pattern with them,
but with the exception of one person (who may have just been having a bad day), I've
not met an unfriendly one yet. They've all gone a long way toward making me become
quite interested in flying pattern some day. For now, I simply have very little "Free time",
and don't want to waste every flying moment perfecting a pattern, when I won't
get to make 75% of the pattern contests in the first place. (family & work come first)
If I ever try it, it will be when I'm ready, and able, to give it the 100% that it deserves.

I perceive that there are good people in all areas of aeromodeling.

Thanks to AEROBOB and countless others and the dedication and supportive attitude they have exhibited to me I have a great appreciation for the sport/hobby of aeromodeling. It doesn't matter if its pattern, free flight, control line, sailplanes or jets. I have found good people and friends in all the areas I have participated in. IF it weren't for these good people I would have surley lost interst in the hobby and ventured off to somehting else.

AS far as cost... its relative.

How much is a good set of golf clubs...plus weekly green fees or how about Country Club dues? BTDT
How much does it cost to run a competitive or even a hobby stocker auto racer or motorcycle? BTDT
Boating, Sailboats, Jet SKi's.... more money less time to use too.
BTDT

So far this is the least expensive of the other sports I was involved in.
I could go on and on... If there is a way to make it go or go cheaper modelers know how to get it done. A very inventive group of people. A great escape and tension releiver for me no matter what S.I.G I get involved in.

Right BOB?

Wayne

I like the people I find in the pattern circles. The big draw back for me is that I live in central Arkansas, to go to anything worth entering in pattern, I have to go to another state. No one flies pattern here. I do think IMAC has a better set up, in that it allows more personal freedom while performing..(planes, freestyle, etc.). There are no IMAC folks here either, but there are lots of great pilots who would do well in IMAC or pattern, they just wont do anything structured. I wish I could generate more intrest, but I'm tired of hitting a brick wall. Just my 2 cents worth.

2fast4u

CHeck out the guys in Hot Springs. A few pattern guys there.
Just got back from thier contest Oct 5-6th

Well heres one nobody has brought up yet.
I competed[poorly] in about 3 contests in the late 90's.
I want to go at it again someday soon i hope.
But divorce got in the way.
Had to sell my sweet little Meridian to pay the rent.
New wife now and she is fairly supportive of me being involved in the hobby but she is still not sure about the idea of driving several hours to a pattern contest.
Also with child support i am not having a lot of luck getting anything in the air that wont embarrass me too much[ all i got flying right now is an LT40 and it can be enough to break the budget some weeks].
Now all that complaining aside i DO intend to get back into it sometime soon.
I agree with the fellow who says if you want to do it for less get some plans and build it yourself.
Ive got a set of plans for a 1000 Typhoon going on the board this winter.
But the way i build it may be 2 years coming so I'm going to have to find something in the mean time .

I guess my biggest reason is there is no local activity. It is hard to get very good unless you have someone to call for you that at least has an idea of what the maneuvers are supposed to look like.

The local field with it's runway oriented perpendicular to the prevailing wind, and with the sun in the middle of the base leg of the landing pattern after 1:00 P.M. doesn't help much either.

I live in western PA, which is basically the black hole of model airplane competition. That's why I don't compete. I know I can drive 5 hours to contests over in Ohio or whatever, but I've done that kind of thing in the past with motocross, bicycle racing, and triathlons. I'm no longer interested in the hassle of traveling long distances just for a hobby. If I lived in an area where there were "local" contests, I'm 100% sure I would participate in all of them. Doesn't seem as if there are very many guys around here that would be interested in 'serious' flying.

I know this is kinda late to post this, but this is in response to JWN's post a minimum engine cost of $500. The Webra 1.45 that Piedmont Models imports is the lightest and most powerful 2-stroke pattern engine (as far as I know). And the best part, it only goes for $395! When I get my next pattern plane, I will definately be giving Lee a call for the new Aero-X! Just my opinion.

Yes, but how much more is the mount, header and pipe? I promise you they will total more than $105.00. The last new YS .61 I bought was $250.00. Header - $45.00, pipe - $75.00, mount - $25.00, pipe mount - $5.00. Total - $400.00. That's a complete engine package. If you want to try to get down to the $500.00 figure I quoted, you're going to need to step down to a ST 2300 or smaller engine.

BTW, I disagree that the Webra 1.45 is more powerful than the OS 1.40 FI. If it was, you'd see far more of them at the meets. Lighter and simpler, yes, more powerful, no.

John

How about the Irvine 150? I saw it used at the W/C, and the guy using it said that he was happy with its performance. That is roughly $280.
They don't all have to be OS's, Webras, and YS's for pattern.
Again, my advice to anyone who is having trouble affording the big engines is to look for a second hand setup.

Because of the demands for an absolutely consistent engine, I don't consider anything without 1) being designed for the rigors of pattern, and 2) a regulated pump, to be suitable for competition. If the Irvine can prove to handle the loads placed on it by the pipe for more than one season without a major rebuild (bearing replacement does not constitute a major rebuild) and you add a pump to it, then I'd consider it. Personally, I rather have an older YS 1.20. They put out a lot of power and very reliable.

Just my .02

John

Same here, thats why I would say to go for a second hand 140L or 120, or whatever you can find!

As long as you can find one for sale from someone you trust ran it properly, I agree.

John

The Webra 145's were ran by the entire German team at the Worlds, I think they are more than capable.

The OS FI not not any more powerful than the RX, in some cases people have reported losing a little power. Neither will be any more powerful than the Webra, or the OS 160 for that matter.

As far as pipes and header, well you can drop nearly the same on a 4-stroke exhaust as a 2 stroke one, so its only the price of the motors that really makes a difference.

Myself I run a 140DZ, but there is no need to do that.

Were those Webra's pumped? If not, I don't care who ran them, I personally wouldn't.

2s vs. 4s was not the intent of the debate. It was total cost of the power plant package. Bottom line, they are expensive. Too expensive for me. I cannot find the rational for the cost of pattern these days. You might be able to, but I cannot. Priorities change and a roof over my head is more important in my life than the cost of todays complete pattern outfit UNLESS you look at used and/or scratch built.

John

I wouldnt know for sure, but they ran pretty damn good.

Maybe so, but without a pump, I wouldn't put it in my plane. No, I'm not a FAI world class competitor, but I still wouldn't rely on it in a pattern plane. Also, this is still besides the point. That engine, plus header, pipe and mount, is still over $500.00 unless you buy used. Too much $ in my opinion.

John

Yes, the Webra 1.45 is pumped. Very reliable and very powerful.

If it's too much money for you, then it's too much and that's that. That's a personal choice everyone has to make. The price of a NASCAR is too much for me, so I'll stick with my pattern planes =P

-Mike Hester

John,

I have to agree with you on this one. BTDT with the S.T.2300
and tried and tried to get it to run with out a pump. Ended up putting a Perry pump/carb setup on it and it ran just fine then but after half a season of frustration. Then I had to get a custom made header from Karl Mueller($45) after breaking (2) Johnson wraparounds($45 ea.) so my total coat was:

engine... $190
headers... $135
Perry setup $ 80

Total $405.00

I just bought an O.S. 1.40RX nib and a Karl Mueller header

engine $360 (good deal wish I could find this again)
header $ 45

Total $405.00

So trying cheaper isnt always BETTER.

Plus this O.S. has a great midrange and will pull a 17x12N fine.

Perry pump solves lots of problems too. There are many engines that run fine without a pump. Also I don't understand what is meant by being designed for the rigors of pattern. All you need is reliability.

In my area there are very few beginning pattern pilots. I bought my Kyosho Majestic too late to make any competitions this season, but next year I'll be competing. Total cost for the plane was 500 dollars (I have a transmitter already). Oh by the way the engine is a 46fx and it runs like a clock. And wouldn't you believe it, it doesn't have a pump either. I'd like to put it next to a DB meter, because I am sure the engine/plane/prop combo is quieter than the 140 4-stroker in Villwock's Hydeaway.