It's cyclical. Here in Scotland the pattern scene is alive and kicking (yes, of course we fly pattern in Scotland!)

Fairly decent doesn't mean expensive. Try a Flair (now CM Pro) Swallow with OS 91 two stroke and standard servos. Great plane and all in it costs less than a 160. My younger brother does a great job of flying P-07 with it. It's how you move the sticks, not what plane you fly. Pattern does not have to be expensive.

I agree. Watching P-07, unless it's truly a world level flyer is dull as hell, but so are other types of flying. Just look at 3D done averagely, absolutely horrible to watch. However, watching F-07 and unknowns is great. Flying them is also much more fun than just P-07 as well

Perhaps if they made the schedules shorter (as they are thinking of doing) it would be a bit less dull and speed up contests a bit. They should also bring back the mighty Figure M with 3/4 rolls. A superb manoeuvre.

A

Now you're talking !!!
Like I told JohnW , I always liked the figure M !!!

tommy s

Then see the new masters sequence for 2007......

Jeez I can't believe I posted in this thread. *twitch*

-Me

.
.
.
. . . guys with shotguns at the turnaround poles. . .
.
.
.
Now THAT's excitement. . .
.
.
.
Sorry about all the smart-azz comments. . . I've been dying to get out flying since September. . .
.
.
.

Locally, pattern seems to be growing. Why? Attitudes of the people. In our area we've got a bunch of great guys who are in it for the people relationships as much as they are for the competition. I have seen guys who are flying at the FAI level helping sportsman flyers. The contests are free to sportsman and we let the sportsman guys fly 2 rounds at once. You just need to have the right attitude and be a bit creative.

There are also lots of planes out on the market now in ARF form such as the Venus that can fly almost all of the classes with a standard non-exotic engine. I think this makes it easy to get going.

Where I used to fly we had one member who used to be big in pattern - like going to the nats kinda big. Used to be. He flew at my club part time and was a member of a mostly all pattern field some distance away.

I wanted in on the pattern so I asked him about it a bunch and he helped me when I was learning to fly.

I didn't have a pattern plane but he kept telling me to come on over to their field and watch and fly with some of the guys. So I took the closest thing I had which was a GP Venus that I had tucked into the trailer cause I liked the way it flew on rails.

I showed up and pretty much was told not to fly because I would get in the way of guys practicing and that they really weren't looking for more people because more people meant less flights by themselves etc....

I stuck around and watched and never went back to that field which is the only one that flew pattern or hosted a competition within probably a 5 hour drive at least.

I have a 30% YAK and have done a small amount of IMAC. I recently got an Oxalys 50 and I just love they way it flies. I specatated a contest a month ago and plan to compete in a week. To me both are fun but Patternships just fly better than scale planes IMO.

I'm brand new to pattern, thoughly enjoy it and cant wait to compete. anyone need a TOC yak or trade on a 2M ship .

I kinda like the size of the contest I went to looks like I will get a full contest in, IMAC you never know. I do wish Pattern had at least one unknown sequence at each contest.

Hey Bob 101,
For all of us pattern guys, I am sorry for the way those jerks treated you. They aren't pattern guys. Pattern guys should be excited to see new faces come into the sport. Those are guys who just fly pattern airplanes. You come on down here to Florida and we'd be glad to help you any way we can.

Greg Grigsby
1997 Masters National Champion

I'll second that Gregg, all the pattern fliers I've met are a great bunch of guys. All the
one's I fly with here in Texas are the best. Last month when I was getting ready for the
Todd-Max contest in Temple my YS engine crapped out and ED Deaver ( Divesplat) offered
to loan me one of his YS 1.40 DZs !! Ed and I live hundreds of miles apart so I think you
can see what a great guy he is, he certainly was under no obligation to offer that as we only
know each other from the contests we attend. I'm pretty sure any one of the other guys
would have done the same if they could. Bob 101, if you were treated badly I can assure you
those guys were the exception, not the rule.

tommy s

May as well contribute the "gloom and doom" part of a response to Bob101..... and I'm ready for the onslaught....so ya'll fire away...
Here goes....

1. PROBABLY the people he ran into were VERY serious, hard-core COMPETITIVE pattern pilots. There used to be an "exclusive" pattern club ONLY in the TriCities area in TX. Huge initiation fee, capped membership, yearly allocation fee..... had a waiting list of folks. (As far as I know it fell apart because they concluded there WERE TOO MANY PILOTS!!!!!!!!!!)

2. "Serious" pattern people WANT to practice in isolated airspace. Now, some of ya'll may want to pump the b.s. about "no, we want ANYONE to fly", but you need to be HONEST, face the FACTS, and disclose the TRUTH about the game....the really SERIOUS guys aren't SEEN at a local field for their SERIOUS practice. They have other places.

3. At a field where there are ONLY 4 pattern fliers in attendance, and honoring the unwritten "one plane up at a time" rule/agreement, it STILL takes FOUR HOURS to put in a REAL serious four-flight session. So if one CHOOSES to be REALLY serious in the Game, they seek out places to fly where they can be the only guy (with their ONE pattern-buddy) to fly so that they can PRACTICE in a serious mode.

4. Those who have neither the luxury of an alternate place to fly, nor the TIME committment to "wait" at a local field are DOOMED to REALLY progress. Yeah, they can do really well at Sportsman, Intermediate, maybe up to Advanced.... but even THOSE guys are really GOOSEY about putting up their $3K pattern bird at the same time as hovering 3D'ers and .40 size sport ships.

5. IF you are brazen, carefree, and committed to flying in the herd, then your PRACTICE effectiveness REALLY goes to hell in a handbasket!!! This game is about MENTAL concentration and focus, and I've not met very many guys that can truly, REALLY, "ignore" all the buzz around 'em during practice attempts at the typical 10 - 15 fliers present at a time place.

6. Finally - "GOOD" pattern PEOPLE **** DO **** go out of their way to help, coach, train, call, fix, repair, teach ----- ANYONE ----- who shows a glimmer of interest. And when that interest grows, and the pattern newbie becomes a pattern regular --- well, now the "GOOD" pattern guy has lost 50% of HIS practice time.

So - maybe the pollyanna pattern purists who really believe the tripe about "flying with everyone any time all the time" will get HONEST about it and share the BALANCED facts.....

1. We *are* obligated, I believe to help grow the game. That means we have to be where the "herd" is to influence and grow them.
2. Number 1 means that we NOW have to committ TWICE the time so that we can have OUR practice (yes, it CAN be done)
3. Pattern folks DO want more players - BUT ONLY TO THE OPERATIONAL LIMIT of the local field, and the local contest. If folks are HONEST about it, they really do NOT want so many pilots at a competition that you can only fly four rounds. Makes it a lot less meaningful at a comp when the winner is the best of 3 or 4.

I ***LOVE*** pattern airplanes. I LOVE the camaraderie of the folks who play. I REALLY enjoy contests with the local good guys.

BUT - I really do NOT want SEVEN or EIGHT of us "competing" for just a simple practice time....

The nature of this game is that it is a self-limiting environment of a complex mix of interest, committment, skill, financial capability, and TIME. At "x" numbers of competitors, life is "good". At "x + TWO" numbers of competitors, things may actually start to SUCK.

Okay, everyone ----- FIRE AWAY.

I agree with you Bob, however, if a guy takes the time out of his schedule and drives to a new field to inquire about pattern and maybe get a few minutes to go over his airplane and get a couple of pointers then we as pattern fliers have a responsability to help him out. I'm as serious as anyone when it comes to pattern, but if I can't take 30 minutes to help a guy out then shame on me!
Greg Grigsby

If we don't help new guys then we'll all end up talking about how fun it use to be when pattern was around.

Thank you, Greg - and YES.... we absolutely SHOULD (and we all DO) help.... those who refuse should be banned.

The point of my note was just to highlight the realistic "constraints" of growing the numbers. It is at cross-purposes... to excel, one must practice religiously, in an effective manner. To accomplish that, one has to avoid the "groups". Hence, "cross purposes" begin to surface.

It is a hard game.

I've been in the hobby since 1989 and enjoy anything that flies. I started flying imac in 03 and have enjoyed it very much, I have to say that one of the things I like about imac is the relaxed athmosphere, yes we joke around about zeros but it doesn't mean we like them. IMAC has not been around for as long as pattern and there is a lot of things I whish they did different like bringing back centering.
"
Now, lets think about this for a second. What does the average " sport " and or" sunday" flier flies? Most likely an extra, yak or cap of some type. This makes it easy to go to a local IMAC contest and fly the same airplane they fly on the regular basis, they also get to sit down and watch or even participate on the free style part of the contest which any true modeler would like. Once they are hooked on IMAC they usually move to a 35% or 40% airplane.

I would love to try pattern one day but there is a couple of things that have turned me off. Going back to glow fuel and the fact that a pattern plane is very single purpose. There is no doubt that flying both IMAC and patern would make you a better pilot.

The average modeler has the impression that patern guys are very "stock up" and IMAC guys are more like the sunday flier and this impression I believe has hurt pattern more than anything else. My question is, Is this only an impression and if so what do you guys think has created it? The other big factor is the fact that pattern doesn't get the exposure that IMAC gets, besides the NATS and the worlds there's no big events. The biggest RC events that get the most coverage are based on IMAC type airplanes. If you ask any teenager who's their idol they will most likely tell you Quique Zomensini or Mark Leesburg, but If you asked the same question twenty years ago they would have told you Hanno Pretner. The hobby has changed, at least we have the options to fly either or both.

Albert Santiago
( perhaps a future pattern flier)

Bob,
Where is the "tri cities" area in Texas?
The Golden Triangle?
JLK

Been a long time, but I *think* it was Arlington/Ft.Worth/Dallas, field was just off I-10 (?). Not sure.... and nothing personal meant with my reference to that specific group. There have been others, in other areas. Unfortunately, it almost becomes a "secret society" for these small, secluded, and private "Pattern Places". But they are OUT THERE, I assure you.

ahhhh...
I'm originally from Beaumont, one point of the Golden Triangle, and thought maybe it was there.
I left in '87 and quit RC in '88 so it could have been there...I was just curious.
JLK

Just like the Clubs that have designated instructors, maybe we could have a list of designated pattern gurus that people can locate and email?
Greg Grigsby

From reading the thread a few things need to change in pattern for instance. No 2m ships allowed in sportsman class, 110 cc max motor size. Add knife edge, and a snap in to the sequence, get a little excitment going. Give these snooty pattern guys that are too serous a good kick in the rear

You got a great idea, there, Greg! My name must be posted someplace, cause I usually have three or four "cyberpals" on pattern development at any given time. Usually one or two "live" pattern guys that we get together and learn from each other.

Great Idea!
Maybe volunteers should get RCU to post a sticky note on the names??? I wouldn't mind that a bit.
(Obviously, doesn't need to be on the NSRCA site, as the "wannabees" don't know it's there.... but most guys know RCU is here)

Ok so if we did that we'd have to put out a "Not Allowed aircraft list", silly idea. I'm all for allowing any AMA legal airframe to be flown in sportsman. Heck i saw a guy fly a heli in a pattern contest once. I've found some of the "Serious" pattern guys that want to compete on the national level never fly in local contests and pratice at private fields and I'm fine with that. I've flown with many "National" championship winners in these parts and they put their pants on one leg at a time just like me and you. They'll also help you at any time you need it. I recieved more than my share of help from probably the finest man ever to fly pattern, Darrell Kampschror. He designed, built and lent out more airplanes than anyone I know of. He let me borrow many airplanes over the years and when I crashed my airplane just before the first NPAC, one phone call and I had an airplane to use in under 2 hours. I flew that airplane to first loser that year in advance. I choked and let David Shulman beat me. By far the avg pattern flier is more than happy to help anyone that needs it. When one wants a national championship or to try out for the USA team they need private practice time with the coach. It's part of the game.

WE all know a big plane flyes easier than a smaller one, so going by that, a guy that shows up at his 1st pattern contest, and sees nothing but 2m ships, while he is flying a 40 size Kaos, he already has one strike against him, but of course thats ok because we wouldn't want to make it easier for the low buck guy to compete in pattern with a lower price smaller bird in sportsman class. No wounder pattern is dieing, by not adapting 2 simple rules no 2m ships and 110cc motors the largest motor allowd in sportsman the casual pattern flyer just might feel like compting. These 2 sugested rules I just threw out there, to promote pattern in those areas that have no one competing. How can these national champ flyers help the want to get into pattern guy flying at the club field when they are out by themselves practising at a different field to be alone for their serious practice time, you have lost me there. I don't know one national champ winner to lend me a plane or show me any thing as I am sure most of us are in the same boat. It is this lets do it the same old way that is killing intrest in pattern, not lack of people that would love to try. Take the 11 pound rule for example, how silly is that. Have you ever taken a good look at some of these warbirds that come in at 15-30 pounds with long fuses and 80"+ ws looks to me like they would make wounderful pattern birds in the lower classes, but no we want to do it the same old way.

TD you miss the point. The guys that fly at pattern ONLY fields are very rare they also didn't do this the vast majority of the time. I know of a total of three in these parts that did that and only then around Nats time and Team try outs. They came to the club field and flew sport planes quite often and were always helpful to the other fliers. You advocate no 2 meter ships or bigger. Ok you just killed off 1/2 the guys in my club that "might" try pattern. I advocate letting them fly "what they brung". I decent pilot with a kaos and a 60 will kick a guy with a 2 meter bird everytime if he practices with a good coach and the 2 meter guy does not. There are many "Pattern Primers" taking place around the country and are growing in interest so I don't think pattern is dying and might even make a slight come back. The pilot makes the plane the plane doesn't make the pilot.

I guess I wasn't clear in getting my point across, I sugested no 2m planes & 110cc and under motors in the sportsman class only to promote the sport for the average guy. I'm not saying practicing with a good coach is a bad idea, as many clubs have no one flying pattern like that at our club, but one guy that will not help anyone. I will be attending the "Pattern Primer" this month with my 90 Quest 3D bird which costs $175-$200 and is a very nice entry level bird. This is the type of planes the rules should be made to favor in the sportsman class instead of the 2m tuned pipe mega dollar pattern ship.

Taildragger,
The clinic in Grafton on the 27th?
JLK

Here's an Idea from IMAC. Imac has a "bootcamp" in most districts, that gave me a taste and sparked my interest. I simply choose pattern due to closer contests and I perfer the planes.

Maybe AMA pattern should have a Bootcamp show Pattern to curios pilots. IMAC usually has theirs in the January. Yes it would be copied from IMAC but it might cure this concern"pattern is dead".

I wish I had someone close to me to learn from, but I also have no problem or feel inferior trying the sportsman class with ~ 4-6 hours practice. You have to start somewhere.