MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Just a question of opinion, I've built a few ZN and PL kits. I really don't like them at all. Some people rave about them, that's fine. I just don't like the construction.

Yep they won the worlds and all that, but that doesn't mean much to me personally. I'm not planning on competing in the world championship any time real soon LOL I know they fly well, not disputing that one. I simply prefer something else. Especially if I have to build it

the same logic could be applied to my plane vs the one you fly. $500 vs $1500. "Sure you have to build it but..."

It's all a matter of degrees, opinion, depth of pocket book, how much your time is worth to you, how bad you want the latest and greatest.......vs what your intentions are with the plane.

Ahh well, that's why we have choices! I wish we had more, personally.

-Mike

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Care to elaborate on what you dont like?

bla bla

Yep, these Oxai planes cost mucho, but looking at the pictures, the finishing is just State of the Art.
The quality underneath must be just as good. Imagine the hours of work to design, prototype, tool up, build, finish, pack & ship etc etc. It's considerable!

Then of course theres the totally redundant middle men...(like it makes a difference if I ship a model from Germay, Japan or the USA!)
Remove them and half the price!

Colani

Thanks very much for all discussant, my English not good, I can't understand all reply, but, I try talk with you.

Colani

Yes, the canopy is same spot on both models.

Colani

Zeque recommend YS dingo 160-M, the engine mount see picture.

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

Simply put, I'm just not a fan of the way they sacrifice structure for weight in a lot of areas. Admittedly I haven't messed with anything post-Synergy era and haven't had my hands on a Twister. So if they've made some drastic changes, please, you elaborate Detailed pics would be cool.

What I have seen from ZN is a flying eggshell. It's light, straight, pretty glass work, nice sheeting, and it sort of ends there. If you're planning on electrifying one, then it should make a prime candidate. Just don't bounce it around too much.

On glow versions, I've seen the false ribs loosen and wallow out the wing, the sockets break, the fuselages developing cracks from one end to another, and just generally sort of disposable and not durable. Yeah yeah I know, "I have 7034857235602947856 flights on mine and it still looks like the day it was first flown"....ok, fine. The ones I've had first hand experience with started cracking and coming apart from almost day one.

I'm not a big fan of the TAVS foam sandwich, are they still using that? Have they actually put a real false rib at the end of the tube or just that dinky scrap of lite ply?

It's just personal preference and what you want it to do. As I said, -I- don't like the ZN construction, never have, and unless it has changed, probably never will. I don't like spinach either. Or green eggs and ham.....and in my opinion, construction-wise, no they don't hold a candle to Oxai. So far. I have seen some Oxais exhibit parts of the flying egg shell syndrome too.

-Mike

bkennedy

My experience with OXAI airframes has been Fantastic. From the time I opened the crate to maiden voyage was only 5 evenings. Everyone talks about how expensive they are. Add up the cost of a ZN or PL, have it professionally built, panted, covered I think you will find the OXAI to be real value. Oh! and your time is worth something$$. The OXAI planes are very true, quick to get in the air and the finish quality is very very good and consistent. I have two identical OXAI airplanes now and after completing #2 I just copied #1 in the radio, renamed to #2 set the throws and flew, Only required 2 clicks of elevator. I can't believe how true to each other these two planes are. A fantastic experience.

Thanks OXAI-USA for bringing in these truly Awesome works of art!![sm=shades_smile.gif]

Bryan

bkennedy

Forgot to add a picture

Thanks

Bryan

can773

My Feedback: (1)

Interesting, completely opposite to what I (and a lot of others) have experienced. Never seen a fuse crack, flown them with glow for lots of flights.......we have brought in around 40 kits from France in the past 4 years, I have not heard one complaint about the quality.

TAVS....ZN doest vacuum bag. False rib...dont know never had a failure and never opened up a wing to find out. Although most of my ZN stuff has been single peice wings.

Oxai's are nice, but for $4000 CND....I can buy a ZN kit, finish it in a month, and equip it with the best of the best and still have money left over At these levels of models (twister, beryll, zeque, oxalys, etc etc etc) its all about the fingers.

bla bla

I was under the same impression, that ZN produces some of the nicest...and most affordable Formula 1 pattern kits.
Of course theres a great deal of work to be done to finish them but that doesn't seem to turn people off.
I, on the other hand have recently had very limited RC time and certainly don't want to be spending that building...as much as I love that part of the hobby, ironically.
I asked ZN the cost for them to prepare a Twister up to the paint and film ready stage. It was very expensive... at least 3x the kit price.
For that they finished and sanded the wings, stab and mounted both. Also included was an engine ready firewall and the UC blocks mounted and drilled out.
Not a lot of work but fiddley stuff sll the same. If one was to include paint and film I would guess it would be far more expensive than the OXAI.

Regarding the quality of the basic ZN product/moulding etc, from what I've whitnessed they're absolutely first class.
Some years back there was an excellent thread in this forum about factury building a ZN model. Excellent stuff.

dflynt

My Feedback: (48)

Mike,

You remind me a lot of my father-in-law who has always been pleased with American autos because they are "built so well". They have always given him 70k-100k miles of service, and in his mind they are outstanding. However, he can always find problems with Japanese autos (he claims the steel is lower quality, and therefore they are junk), even though they typically outlast American 5-1. Example, I had a honda that I kept for 15 years, put 330k miles on it, and never once did if fail to start in the morning. I never replaced anything on it but the tires and brake pads. Even the interior was nice after all those years. It ran as strong as the day I bought it new, but I got tired of it, and traded it in for a 2006 V6 Accord that just flies down the road. I don't think there is a US car that can touch it for the price. The Mustang is a joke. The quality of the Accord is superb. I feel the same way about ZNLine and did about PL. If our "outstanding" craftsment in the US could build a better pattern product than the French, I would buy that product. We are lazy and unmotivated. There is nothing in the US pattern market but heavy, ugly, outdated designs that are difficult and time consuming to build. I wish I could say otherwise, but look at the US Auto makers as an analogy. I would much rather have a Japanese, Italian, or German auto than any US made auto (well, the Ford GT is looks nice, but I would still rather have a Porsche or Ferrari. Who wouldn't?). I've nothing against US products, but it does not appear that we are competing vigorously enough. The proof is in the numbers. Ford and GM are really tanking.

I hate to be so blunt and disagreeable, but you know something -- ZNline kits are better than anything available in the US. That includes all the roaches of course. Now if we built wood planes like the Japanese craftsmen, I would get in line for one of those.

Yours, David

MHester

My Feedback: (1)

I said I didn't like them. Was asked specifics, and answered. I disagree, and the numbers WILL speak for themselves that a lot of other people disagree as well. We like our roaches, I much prefer Oxai over ZN if I had to choose. We'll do our thing, you do yours. I think you'll be very suprised in the future. Again.

Y'all have fun!

-M

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

David,

I have PERSONALLY flown the Pinnacle, a Brio, a Twister, Nedim Bek's Mantis, Smaragd, Partner's and also Mike's personal Black Magic. NOTHING has flown better than Mike's black magic. In about 2 minutes I was more comfortable with that airplane than anything I've ever flown, other than my Mantis. I have never flown a plane that came close to snapping like that one does...it rolls like you wouldnt believe...it flies better than my Mantis, and my poor Mantis certainly kicked some serious tail this year at the NATS..likely would've won Masters had it not been for a faulty pipe mount that in 3 years had never had a problem. I also go to see Sean's Astrall XX by Naruke, and other than a little finish details, I think the pure construction of the black magic is definitely up to par. After seeing photo's of Mike's other planes..I think if you come to the NATS next year, you will agree..the guy can flat out build...I know that he rushed these 2 Black Magic's he is flying now. I have seen the ZN stuff, and I have heard NUMEROUS complaints about them..ask Mickey Lasardo what he thinks of ZN...as usual the Chicago gang ordered multiple airplanes, and he had TERRIBLE luck with their wings and he is one of the top builders in the US..all of the manufactures have faults..and here is another little secret...guys can happily go spend 5000 on a pro built pattern plane, but put a 500 ARF in the hands of the right pilot and sit back and enjoy the show...I have definitely enjoyed winning MANY contests with my poor 3 year old Mantis...I have new planes coming now..but that plane has served me well, and it has certainly beaten its share of Oxai's, ZN's, PL, Piedmont's and any other manufacturer you want to throw in there. You should try flying one of these "wood roaches" as you call them before you knock them...I've flown the rest, and other than Sean's Astral XX (which was also wood by the way), I will happily choose the wood airframe. I felt that way years ago when the Prophecy's were THE plane to have..and I was flying a Viper...an airplane which also whipped it's share of Prophecy's and the like. They are so much more rigid than ANY composite airframe..and before you decide to tell me otherwise, please note I do composite work daily for the military and have worked with the best of the best of materials. I have built and flown many different UAV's, with about every imaginable combination of materials, and i still believe in the hands of the right builder, a well build wood airplane, is lighter (YES, lighter) and more rigid than any other type of material. Yes, you can build a composite aircraft maybe a little lighter, but you sacrifice rigidity, and there is ZERO advantage to a pattern plane under 10lbs in my opinion..on a calm day, sure..but try flying in the weather we had at the NATS on thursday this year with a VERY light plane..you are definitely at a disadvantage. I can promise you, if flying a 9lb airframe, which I still have no personally seen a plane that light; was that big of an advantage, then NONE of the top FAI guys would be flying planes that way 10 - 10.5, which they all are, some even heavier. I know Andrew likes his to be in the 10 1/4-10 1/2 range. I think about 100 sq inches per pound is the best ratio...You have to be VERY careful and selective in the quality of wood, but it can be done. I personally despise building. I like the kevlar/carbon aircraft from a time stand point and repeatability stand point, but that is the builder, not the kit..

Just my 2 cents...

and by the way, i love the look of this Zeque

Arch Stafford

dflynt

My Feedback: (48)

I appreciate your detailed response and experience. When did the wing problems occur? What designs? I am asking you and Mike to be a little more detailed and balanced in your criticism. Don't just tell everybody that there are numerous problems. We have two conflicting reports -- one from Mike who sells a balsa kit (and never misses an opportunity to slam ZNline), and one from Chad who has delt with ZNline over several years, imported 40 airframes, puts a lot of flights on them, and has never had or heard of a problem. I have not had a problem in three of three French kits with plug in wings, and I do the reverse av with mine.

When did this occur, what models, and how many of how many had problems?

BTW, Mikes Airplane is well under 10 pounds, and you said it was the best flying airplane you have ever flown. But you also said that there is no advantage to being under 10 pounds. It seems like you have contradicted yourself.

If a fellow American is going to bash a fellow pattern supplier, it would be a lot less embarrassing if the fellow American offered a superior product. And if that product were superior, then there would probably be a worldwide demand for it, and his production facility would probably be much larger and sophisticated than that of the competiton's. If the Black Magic is really the best flying airplane around, then some top flyer is going to realize it, and he will want that advantage. If your are correct in your assessment, then the top fliers around the world will soon be demanding and flying the Black Magic. Let's see what happens.

I like wood planes. If someone in the U.S. were capable of building a plane like the scratch-build Zeque, I will get in line for one of those.

David

rcpattern

My Feedback: (45)

David,

I did not contradict myself. I flew Mike's airplane on a calm day...also, the Black Magic is a little smaller, it is not quite as large as some of the really wide body designs, but I will admit that is feels more like it is with rudder authority. It is much closer in size to the Astral XX. I would prefer for really windy conditions it be a little heavier with more power...Mike's airplane now is right at 10lbs, with a 1.60DZ in the nose, and I have not flown it with that setup. I would bet that the performance is spectacular. I personally am not bashing ZN..I'm telling what I know. The airplanes they had problems with were kits a couple of years ago. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. I have never built a ZN kit. I do think that I don't care who the manufacturer is someone will experience problems. I know that Mike sells a plane, HOWEVER, I also know that when Mike came up with the design, he did it for himself, not to produce. Then was pounded with requests from people, because they were unhappy with the quality and amount of designs available. Selling kits is a MAJOR operation, that takes incredible amounts of time and dedication. Just from talking to Mike he offered it because of a large number of requests, you are NOT going to get rich building pattern planes...too much time is invested, and you can't sell the end result for enough money to expect to live off of and I know Mike lost a lot of flying time, just filling orders. Mike is like a lot of guys here in the US, he likes to build. I however, am not one of these guys. He did a great deal of research on the plane and tried some things out, and came up with a great flying airplane. My biggest point, was do not knock an airplane simply because of its wood construction, and my other point is do not knock an airplane because of its outside appearance. Just because a plane doesnt have an incredible finish, doesnt mean anything. If the airplane is built straight, it can be a competitive airplane. Once again...I have not built a ZN kit..I used Mickey as an example, I know of a builder here that built a Twister in the last 6 months, that had some small issues. Nothing that couldn't be straightened out, but he did have issues. Every design, and every manufacturer can have Quality Control issues. You have had good luck with the ZN's, and I know Chad has. And you guys aren't the only ones. They are beautiful airplanes, and great flying airplanes. Keep in mind, a few years ago, PL Prod was the place to get planes because of their incredible compositie work...well, you can see how far that got them. There is a market for the high end composite stuff, but there is also a market for the wood fuses. Both are competitive. I seriously doubt if Mike was giving away his Black Magic's that it would make much of a dent in the overall sales of the other composite stuff. To build a Black Magic, is just that, it is building. The ZN stuff is MUCH closer to assembling then it is building. This allows people to finish them quickly, and without much risk of really screwing things up. When you build a black magic, there is definitely a lot more work involved, but if done correctly, you end up with just as nice of a flying airplane assuming the builder then follows the proper trim setups and such..just like any other kit. I think you will be surprised at the number of Black Magic's at the NATS next year, in all classes. A Black Magic can be built for MUCH cheaper than any of the composite kits, so what that does is help expand the number of people who can fly pattern. Unfortunately pattern is very expensive. When you add travel, fuel, airframe, engine, quality radio, and routine maintenance, it can get very expensive in a hurry. Finding a less expensive way to get an aircraft can only help grow the sport.

Arch

weg

Forgive me my ignorance, but why anybody in USA can not built the same quality pattern planes as japanese?

mups53

My Feedback: (41)

The problems that Mickey and Jim Hubbard had was with a couple of the ZN Hydeaway's about 4 years ago. The wings were junk pure and simple and the response to fix the problems was non existent. They ended up having to scrap the wings and cut their own. Mickey is a fussy builder and won't proceed building on anything that isn't just right. If you send him a plane that's a little off he will detect it because he's so meticulous. His uncompromising precision results in some spectacular flying machines. For what it's worth the Genesis's we received were less than quality also. We bought 19 of them so we can speak with some expertice on this subject.
I like the Black Magic but I lack the skills to build a decent balsa plane and I too hate building. I am lucky enough to live 3 miles from Mickey who has always helped me get something good in the air. Mike

klhoard

My Feedback: (10)

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Genetics. . . .
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MHester

My Feedback: (1)

I thought you would have learned your lesson a couple years ago over the PL debate. Looks to me like you're just picking a fight. Bored? You call it "bashing", when in fact all I said was it didn't hold a candle to an OXAI, (and I truly believe that), and that I PERSONALLY don't like them. Also listed in detail what I don't like. Ignore or dismiss at your preference, it's real. I'm not dragging into an arguement over taste and preference. Fly a titatium/carbon hybrid, fly a cardboard crapbox, see what I care. How in the 9 hells would you know what the quality of my plane is anyway? Because it doesn't come with a gel coated fuse? Because you have to *gasp* build it? Have you ever flown one?

As for your above quoted statement, mark my words: you are about to eat yours. With a 5lb bag of salt. I'll wait [8D]

If expressing preference and dislike is bashing, then call it what you want. Trivia question: which plane won the Concours de Elegance at the 2006 Nats? Hint: it wasn't a ZN plane. Both the winner and runner up were wood roaches. And those were voted on by the pilots themselves.

Another trivia question: how many US pilots will be flying a Black Magic next year? Hint: more than you think. Quite a few overseas too.

I don't really care. I can't keep up with the demand for this thing as it is. I have what I want, so we'll see how it goes.

Now I'm heading out the door to do something novel: compete in a contest, what a concept!

-Mike

PS Thanks Arch....

bla bla

Ok, so this thread has gone the usual RCU direction and wondered off into total irrelevance.
Back on topic, the Zeque is without question a superb lookin' class A, 36-24-36, C cup tottin' piece of serious totty!
Congratutions to the designers, builders and those out there lucky and rich enough to sleep with such a beauty.

dflynt

My Feedback: (48)

Mike,

Sure, I am a little bored and enjoy presenting my viewpoint. There are still some tensions and disagreement over the subject that have not gone away. There is no lesson to be learned. You have proven a few things, but not everything. Mainly you have proven that a large scratch built balsa plane can be build light. It is nice, and I am sure it flies well. I personally am not interested in the design and construction techniques. I like the way the Zeque looks and I prefer the tall fuses. For building, I like ZN. To me, their product is top notch. They are built solid and very light. I guess you disagree. For non-building, Oxai would be my choice and I like the Zeque and Pinnacle. If there was a kit similar to Exclusiv Modellebau for pattern, I would probably be interested. Building is fine. Wood is fine. But it has to be an easy build, and it must be a design that fits my taste. I can elaborate later or offline.

Put ZNLine and Oxai out of business. It can be done by a US corp. Look at Miniature Aircraft Helicopters and DA engines. They sell the best product available, and have created a worldwide demand. Right now in the US, we cannot say that we create the best pattern planes. As busy as you are, you have two designs, and they are based off the 20 year old typhoon. Oxai and ZN constantly improving their product and create several new designs per year. If you don't become full-time dedicated and organized, you will burn out and get tired of doing this like so many other US pattern kit manufactures.

I'm still working on my physique and cannot seem to find time to fly. I'll get back to it, maybe. Before and after pictures:



David

dflynt

My Feedback: (48)

That is not true. We have a mix of all genetics and pure Japanese blood living in the US. The reason nobody in the US can (or will rather) build like the Japanese is because we don't care enough to do so.

bla bla

Low carbs?
Me too.
11kg in 9 weeks.
No bread, no potatoes, rice or pasta!
Apart from that, it's been unlimited eating.
I just can't believe it works this well.
Looks like you've lost a serious amount.

I think what happening in the US is that you're just stuck in your way about what you believe a F3A plane should look like!
There are far more exciting, radical, sexy designs coming from Europe and the Far East.
The US car comparison is fantastic in my opinion. It sums up the situation completely.
It's stuck in the stone age compared to whats going down on the other side of the pond.
Just the same the the pattern planes.. they tend to look the same.

Not saying that they don't fly well, I sure they do and of course you're just as caperble building or manufacturing as anyone else. Look at Mikes BM. Beautiful job.
What I'm talking about is the design... the shapes, the curves...the sex appeal.
Tall bodies, small wings, small fins, wing shape and size, canopy position, cowl shape etc. The Others are just so much better at constantly coming up with new shapes. Shapes that have "buy me" written on them. As far as flying is concerned I believe there basically nothing between them or your for that matter. Give the CPLR a BM and he'd still win. At the top end of the flying scale it ain't about the plane... it's about the thumbs.
The plane is all about exhibiting your style, your flair... it's your clothes... it's and extension of Your Brand. If you're a Matt. it's important that your BRAND is dramticaly different to the BRAND CPLR. The simplest way to achieve this is to use the most public medium... your plane.
If you ain't pushing the envelope, you're stuck in a rut.

dolanosa

Not to continue the segway this thread went to but folks here have been talking about how ZN is made and how good it is. Why is it so good? Is it the design, is it the materials, fit and finish, or is it THAT easy to complete and fly? The main difference that I see is that ZN has just about every advantage in producing models and making new ones quickly. Why? Their web page states it all. They have CNC routers, CNC foam cutters, industrial strength vacuum pumps, cutter/plotters. Basically, they have everything that's needed for a fully fledged production company and probably spent more money than all of the US makers combined. Also, they have some of the best pilots flying their planes and getting input and since they have all CNC stuff, they can modify their planes accordingly. Now, if the US has manufacturers and a production line like ZN, now we can compare apples to apples. Then people talk about the quality of the Japanese kits. I think They also have a production line of people who basically build planes for a living...for cheap! Find those people here in the US without breaking employment laws and then you compare.

Let's look at the "regular" pattern builder/"manufacturer" in the US. Just one person designing a plane for himself and happened to find a really good design. He/or she might have a fuse jig, some CAD drawing capabiility, a foam cutter and possibly a vacuum bagging system that uses an old refrigerator compressor. Sounds about right? Now, tweaking the plane and making new molds will literally take months if even slight modifications need to be made. Most of their test pilots are their buddies who fly and possibly compete locally and sometime nationally if they happen to live close to one. When modifications are needed to the airframe, it might take such a long time for a new plug and mold, other things may be tried first. Now, give the same US designer CNC capability...even a CNC router or laser cutter, he/she can "kit" out several iterations of the plane without any problems.

My point is for anyone comparing. Compare the same things please. It's not comparing American to Japanese or European. It's comparing building methodologies, production equipment, facilities, and financial investment. Level the playing field to what ZN has interms of what I listed above, and you'll find that US designers will be more than happy to design even better planes than what they can do now.

B