Interesting thread. All I ever say to the judges (when I'm done flying) is: "Thank You." All I ever do with my income tax refund check is cash it. I'm not dishonest by any means. In fact, some people say I'm too honest. Don't worry, if you're really an honest, church going person, you know there is someone keeping score at a higher level. I've actually watched guys do the 2 half-rolls in 402 wrong (i.e both the same direction). Some of these guys were competing against me, and I flew the maneuver correctly. I watched the judges (after the landing) trying to figure out if the guy flew them right (talking, moving their hands, etc.) NOBODY said anything. Not the pilot who screwed up. Not even me. Chances are pretty good if you screwed up like that, you did other things wrong too. I think I actually won that round after the dust settled. The weirdest thing about our judging process is that even though it has all of these potential flaws and weaknesses - doesn't it always seem like the guy (or gal) who flew the best, wins? At least most of the time I find that to be true. Just my opinion.
I DO think we should put a little more emphasis on judging technique. We spend a lot of time talking about airplane setup and trimming, flying technique, etc. What it really comes down to is how do the judges see the fruit of all this labor. If you practice snaps until you can do them in your sleep, and then get zeroed by a judge who doesn't recognize a real snap - who's fault is it? If we worked as hard on judging as we do on flying, you wouldn't need to announce a "0" to the judges. Let's fix the problem instead of putting a band aid on it.
Hope I don't get hate mail - but those are my thoughts on the subject. Flame suit on...

John Pavlick
NSRCA 3815

Good points made by several folks. Our current judging system will always include the human factor - we make mistakes. This is why we use more than one judge - hopefully the majority get it right. For background - I've flown something over 800 competition pattern flights, done lots of judging (since 1974) including a WC, numerous Team Selections and Nats finals, as well as study and participate in rules changes / issues.

We all fly a maneuver wrong once in a while - sometimes we're aware of it, other times were not. Usually the judges catch it - sometimes they don't. Most of us (when we know we messed up) assume that the judges caught the error, but don't know either way until the tear sheets come out. I know I've been surprised both ways - what the heck was the zero for? - or darn, they missed that. Certainly there's no recourse for the unwarranted zero - ethics might dictate that one should admit a zeroed maneuver - but this seems unlikely to work practically. So, for the moment some average of errors hopefully balance.

Likewise we all make judging mistakes. The more complex the maneuver sequence the more likely errors will occur. The less familiar we are with the sequence the more likely errors will occur (really difficult with unknowns). Judging maneuver elements (the correct way) permits a judge to critique any maneuver, but detracts from the overall "picture" of the maneuver, allowing a well flown but incorrect maneuver to score well. A judge is busy - not much time to reflect on what was seen - just subtract downgrades and record the score. Sometimes when judging - something may look unusual - but the pilot gets the benefit of the doubt unless I can be certain. Often "option" (inline or crossbox) maneuvers change the look, yet all is good. Likewise, sometimes I may realize an error (or think I do) a maneuver of so later - seems unfair to change a score once it's recorded.

Reducing the workload for the judges might help. "Zero" judges seems like a good idea when a lot is at stake (TS / Nats finals / cash prizes), the upcoming Don Lowe Masters will use 3 zero judges and all must agree for the 7 "technical" judges scores to be zeroed. Really hard to do this with limited manpower (anybody really want to be a lone zero judge?). Technical assistance for the judges is another method that begs to be explored and implemented.

Systems exist, could be adapted, could be developed to accurately replace many of the judging tasks. Distance out, box violations, and even heading are fairly easy and would relieve the judge of these assessments (which can be erroneous) and allow more focus on the maneuver per se. Even geometry and elements (and yes - wrong maneuvers) might one day be handled by computer - leaving the judge to assess "smoothness & gracefulness". I don't know how to do this - but I'll bet technology exists that can get close (and in a viable cost range - some of the Eagle Tree Systems stuff might work). Just imagine - accurate scores for the technical elements of every maneuver (maybe kinda scary too)! Of course some will raise the view that "the judge should have no assistance not available to the pilot". Gee - I think that pattern is a demonstration of precision flying - why not use precision means to measure that!

'Til then - what we do works pretty well.

I agree 100% with everything you say in a perfect world. I really do. But for what you are saying to work, EVERYONE would have to do it. In any competition, the objective is to win and the judges are charged with making sure that we stay within the rules. How many superbowls have been lost because of a bad call. How many time have you exceeded the speed limit and not called in the the police when you got home to tell on yourself? This is no different. If you

re your last question,,,, My implication is that most people are not forthcoming about their mistakes. Part of what you learn in pattern is
1. Do not make mistakes,
2. If you do make mistakes, do them in such a way that no one can see it.
Making corrections where no one can see it is a big part of the sport.

Now, as far as if you fly an inside loop instead of an outside loop should you tell on yourself?? I dunno, my conscience says yes and if everyone did it YES.. Have you made me personally think about it?yes. We each have to deal with this sortof stuff on a personal level. Realize that what you are asking people to do goes way beyond pattern. Its calling on the integrity of men in general to be totally open and honest in everything they do no matter what the cost. Sounds like something I have read in "Book" somewhere. [8D]

I once lost a contest becuase i admitted a zero that was scored. we all joke about it, i would not have said anthing but a great friend and true competitor flew his tail off, so did I but i flew a wrong maneuver, he noticed and joked on how i choked, then choked when it had gotten scored.

i had my scores reversed with the approval of the CD. the CD said it is what it is, but i insisted.

why did i do this. well, it has only happend once, and i proabably wouldnt do it again. Did i mean to zero the maneuver, of course not, i just made a mistake.

OMG, if i admited all the mistakes in a flight, i would quit competeing.

and those who pointed out the erros in others, look inside, don't be so childish. you do what you want to do and what you want to live with.

The scores i get are the scores i get, if my flying is so bad that it is diffiult to score high, i probaby need more practice and somebody else is going to win anyways.

Chuck

I figure I'll take the occasional zero I sneak past the judges.....makes up for all those undeserved zeros Ive gotten along the way. Afterall why else would I put those $20's under the score sheets when I hand them to the judges....the true secret to improved scoring.

after all...careers are at stake..sponsorships....and all that stuff....

I'm on board with Earl. Our job as pilots is to convince the judges that we have done the correct maneuver flawlessly. Our job as judges is to ensure that the maneuver we see is as perfect as it can be... Then we start chipping away at the start value. Mistakes happen. Wrong maneuvers get flown or a judge blinks for just a second and missed a little piece of the maneuver that may or may not have been correct (now, I'm not admitting that this has ever happened to me before... ahem). It happens... To feel you have to point out errors in your flight is asking a bit too much for a competitive sport. The examples mentioned above draw compelling points related to other competitive sports. Sometimes we might feel as though we have gotten away with something, other times we feel we have been cheated. Right now that's part of the game. Once you accept it that sometimes it goes your way, sometimes not, things get easier to deal with. If not, go race against the clock with the pylon boys. The good news is with your experience in pattern, your track around the course will be slicker than the other racers!

All you can do is try to be an attentive judge and an excellent pilot, no?

Joe W.

Based on the comments, the bottom line is we will all do what we want to since there is no penalty for flying an incorrect maneuver if it gets scored. Way to go, pat yourself on the back - you fooled another contestant judge into thinking you did it correct! There are several comments on judging - In these days of contestant judging, at least where I fly pattern, should I demand a contestant judge, that fly's in the Advanced, know the FAI sequence in such detail as to pick out any maneuver flown incorrectly? This IS asking a bit to much. Will never happen. For the most part, they score what they see and assume you did it correctly - and our ability to 'fool' these judges, should be try, is easy.

Some reference pattern to other sports - this type of thing happens in other sports so why worry about it. This 'logic' makes no sense to me. Why compare pattern to other sports? I don't care if a baseball goes foul by inches and it's called a home run by the highly-paid umpire (I bet the other team cares, as does the batter). We do not have highly paid pattern judges, so maybe we need to help a little. I recall my patents saying to me, "if Sam jumps off a bridge, does that mean you will too". Of course not Mom! Because other sports have 'flaws' does this mean it's OK for pattern to have flaws too? (yes, we will continue to have issues - so let's not get of on a tangent here). I hope we are of a mindset that we fly pattern to fly precision the best we can - clearly some of us don't have this viewpoint. That's OK, we are all in this for different reasons.

There appears to be two types of pattern pilots, those that compete against themselves, trying to better their flying ability and scores at each contest, and those that want to win, yet another, trophy. Winning at all costs seems to be OK, even if it is something you don't deserve because the judge did not catch the "0".

We will not solve this in my lifetime - sorry to say - but perhaps future generations may find a way?

sc

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I think you need to submit a rules change proposal. There are some very important aspects that need to be defined for the rest of us. . . like how long do I have to report my zero after the flight? Who do I report it to? Can pilots from the "peanut gallery" report my zero if neither I nor the judges catch it? Can a zero be reported after the awards ceremony? I mean, I could be driving home and thinking about my third round flight and realize I should have zeroed my stall turn.
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How about the judging aspects? Do I get an extension to my 3-minute start time if I'm in the process of being confronted by another competitor regarding the scores I gave him from the last round? When does the time limit for competitors to confront me begin? When they receive their tear sheets, or when their score is posted? Do I get a big pin with my judge number on it so the pilots can identify me?
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Seriously, you have to draw a line somewhere and I firmly believe that line should be after the judge writes down the last score on the sheet and fixes any typos. If you allow competitors to start changing scores to zero, then you have to allow them to change them higher after the flight as well.
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The real fix, that has been mentioned before, is a much more robust and standardized judge training system than we have now. Judging is much more demanding than flying. When you're flying, it doesn't matter how bad you do, your efforts only really affect yourself. However, when you're judging your efforts are affecting other people and their enjoyment of the sport. I still can't believe the paltry training and standardization that is given to judges when judging is arguably the most important aspect of pattern flying!! The same way that we all learned to fly our trainer on a buddy cord, we need a "checkout" period for new judges at contests. It is totally unfair to expect a new pattern pilot to go to a judging seminar, perhaps watch one demo flight, and then get good and accurate scores.

Keith brings up a very important point. Training. I had the opportunity to judge a couple of rounds of the FAI finals at the Nats this year and interesting discussions followed the warm up flights. All the judges on my line were very experienced pilots and judges, but there were several things that one judge may have seen that the others didn't. The value in the discussion was that all of us were on the same page and were more sensitive to downgrades that may not have been noticed prior to talking about it.

Of course, the most popular judging discussions are the "Snap & Spin" zeros (good grief, don't get me started on those...), but it's important to remember that there are many other pieces and parts that are missed in the seminars. A more clear understanding of what your judging responsibilities are helps to minimize any need or desire to change scores.

Joe W.

Patter is Fun, Scott, I cant figure out what it is that you want. If you want to fly against your self and improve your flying, then go to a secluded place and fly with no judges present. If you want to compete for a trophy, then go to a contest, fly your best and accept what the judges give you. If you feel you dont deserve the trophy you can throw it away when you get home. I for one think pattern is fun just the way it is, With human judges.

SC, I dont get it either. In the thread titled "What is a CD to do?" you seem to be of the opinion that once the scores are written down (properly) they must not be changed. But in this thread you seem to think that they can be changed only if the pilot says so. Make up your mind please.
For me its simple, The judge scores the manuever as he/she sees it, writes it down and it does not change. Its the only way to be fair(in the long term). We all know they make mistakes. If we are going to second guess them, then why even put them up there???? Just go fly your plane and have a good time.

We have all heard, and on here read, or been a part of rounds in contests where the contestant rolled the wrong way or otherwise screwed up a manuver and got scored. There have even been publicized accounts on here of that happening at this year's Nats... I think what Pattern is Fun is saying, and it's something that I agree with is that is not how he, and many of us, want to win. Do you want to win a close battle at a contest because a judge screwed up, or just plain missed an error? Or would you have it because the best pilot won?

Everybody makes mistakes, and that's fine. I make them flying, and I know I have made them judging. It is based on the perception and interpretation of the rules. A judge zeroed one of my spins a few contests back for 'snapping' the entry. I didn't agree that that was the case, but it definitely was sloppy manuever and not deserving of much of a score. I asked him why he zeroed it, ONLY to find out what he saw... not to say that he was incorrect. He's a good judge and I valued his opinion. Without having a video play back I don't know for sure... but I'll bet he was right.

Now, if I had done a three and a half turn spin instead of a two and half, and gotten scored... I would have gone back and had it changed to a zero. I would do that, and have done that. I would not want to win knowing that I 'snuck' one past the judges. Now, I have seen fellow competitors do the opposite of that... do the wrong manuever in some shape or form and get scored and not do anything about it... I may say something to them, but most likely not, it's not my place. For myself though, I want to know who the best pilot is for a given weekend, not who gets lucky and sneaks one by.

Am I better than somebody who doesn't tell on themself? No, I don't consider myself to be better than or worse than anybody else. However, it does illuminate what my goals are versus my perception of their goals.

As far as the aforementioned double standard of correctly written down scores not being allowed to be changed, and a definite zero being added after the fact, the difference is when the contestant himself turns around and says "I rolled the wrong way and that score should be a zero." I don't see how that could be a problem. He is penalizing himself, and trying to make sure the scores, at least his scores, reflect who flew the better flight.

Now there are all sorts of issues with flopped stall turns, and how many degrees it flopped, was it really a zero or just a HUGE deduction. But that's not at issue here, this is about the too many or too few spins, the obvious errors that the just may have just missed. How many times have any of us sat in the chair and missed even just a second of a manuever, where an error could have occurred, because we were looking at a airplane out of control that just might hit us or somebody else? Or some other issue like a bee flying in front of your face?

A judge missing an error does not always mean he/she is a bad judge, they just might not have seen in for a miriad of reasons.

If I am CDing a contest, a correct score (not transposed incorrectly) stands, if a contestant comes to me and says I shouldn't have gotten a score on that, please give me a zero... we will explore that avenue. It's not a double standard, nor having it both ways... it's two different arguments.

Tom M.

It's interesting to read what everyone says they will or won't do if it happens to
them at a contest but the facts are at almost every contest I've attended there is
always someone confronting the CD about one judge giving them a good score and
the other judge giving them a zero and they expect the CD to do something about
it, it does happen a lot. We can say we're just competing to improve ourselves but the
truth is it's a contest and we all would like to win or we wouldn't be there spending a
considerable amount of money to compete, and that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that.
I have never asked a judge to change a score and I probably never will, I just think If I'm
100%, absolutely sure I didn't blow the maneuver there is nothing wrong with letting the judge
know about it, they make mistakes too and should be told, if for no other reason so they won't
make the same mistake again.

tommy s

Ok, well, I waited long enough.
I gotta get in this now. LOL

I think we all know (well, here in District 7) that I have in fact got scored for a zero manuver a few times. I had an issue after moving to masters because I had no practice therefore rolling the wrong way in manuvers. Well, we all know that I have went to the judges afterwards. Actually went to the score keeper once as our score sheets got carried back by a runner.
I gotta tell you guys, you're getting too upset by this idea that Scott has brought up for discussion. He's saying what's the big deal with telling on yourself if you did the wrong manuver? Why wouldn't you? Do you want a score for the wrong manuver?
He's saying why are you in this? To get scores for nothing sometimes? Or maybe to become a better pilot? Or is it that you just want the trophy this time?
I think we all spend enough money in the sport that we all want to win. Most of us want the trophy. Scott, well he's not so interested in "another" trophy. That's fine. He's interested in becoming a better pilot. You guys may be taking him wrong here.

Now, I have to say that it will never happen!! Most people don't care and will take anything they can get for a trophy!!

Me though, aint gonna happen. I'll zero myself. It's now a matter of pride, and I feel good about it. (although it hasn't happened since the beginning of the year) .
Most people look at you differently after they learn you "zeroed" yourself. They have a different level of respect.

Think about it this way. Have you ever watched someone that flew a zero manuver and got scored for it? Did he end up finishing the round, or even the contest ahead of you? Did it bother you then? If so, it should bother you when it happens to you!!

Ok, I got my flak jacket on!!!!

Chris

I would think judging one's judge with anyone else present is something of a faux pas even if it's your last round.

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Yep, they sure do. . . . .
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It was once well known that golfing legend Bobby Jones called a penalty stroke on himself during a tournament even arguing with officials. He subsequently lost by one stroke. Back then, there used to be this thing called "honor". My 2cents worth.

I don't think the original topic of this thread was about calling penalties on
one's self, it's about getting a zero when it's deemed to be not deserved.

This thread is about flying in a pattern contest, not golf, but since you brought it up ;

If an official had called a penalty on Bobby Jones when it was not called for or
deserved don't you think he would have argued his point ??
I certainly do.

tommy s

Nevermind.......

Showing your age there?!!? Bobby Jones? How long has it been since Bobby strolled the links? I know who he is so I am guilty of being an ole fogey as well!!! But the analogy still holds true no matter the era. We are not at contests to police ourselves. See you all at SPARKS......